Should counters be like they were in melee

[xDizxy]

I believe counters should be like they were in melee. They dealt about 7% damage. However in brawl and 4, it depends on how strong the attack is. I want it to be like melee because one counter could cost a stock at low percentage. Now some of you are going to say well just grab them but you can't always do that. Attacks beat grabs. "Just wait it out". Don't forget that counters are mostly used on strong characters and most of them are slow, so yes they see it coming from a mile away and I'm not talking about spamming noobs. Counters are probably the hardest on 2v2 since if they miss, they have their teammates to back them up. I believe counters should do about 13% damage. Do you agree? Tell me your opinions.

 

[_gold_]

7 percent seems... low. But I kind of understand where you're coming from. Just today, I was playing doubles, and I countered Ike's fully charged f-smash. KO'd both opponents and they were hardly over 0 percent. I of course benefited from it, but it seemed a little cheap. Counters should at least deal the same amount of damage of what the your opponent dealt to you, cause like you said, it can get a tad outta hand sometimes.

Then again, I'm not completely against them either. I mean, if you miss a counter, you're bound to get punished since you're left wide open. So there's pros and cons to it as well.

 

[Xermo]

I don't know what you're talking about, but melee certainly had varying counters between Marth and Roy (and peach), the latter of which amplified damage and knockback based on attack just like in brawl and smash 4. There's nothing wrong with counters in this game.

 

[McDizzle!]

7 percent seems... low. But I kind of understand where you're coming from. Just today, I was playing doubles, and I countered Ike's fully charged f-smash. KO'd both opponents and they were hardly over 0 percent. I of course benefited from it, but it seemed a little cheap. Counters should at least deal the same amount of damage of what the your opponent dealt to you, cause like you said, it can get a tad outta hand sometimes.

Then again, I'm not completely against them either. I mean, if you miss a counter, you're bound to get punished since you're left wide open. So there's pros and cons to it as well.

It's not cheap, he made a huge mistake by doing a random fully charged f-smash and you took advantage of the opportunity by countering and KOing him. I don't think that counters need to be changed because they can be easily baited but can be very powerful as compensation. They're sort of high-risk high-reward type moves.

 

[xDizxy]

I don't know what you're talking about, but melee certainly had varying counters between Marth and Roy (and peach), the latter of which amplified damage and knockback based on attack just like in brawl and smash 4. There's nothing wrong with counters in this game.

Lol no what are YOU talking about. It clearly states in the wiki 7% damage.

 

[McDizzle!]

Lol no what are YOU talking about. It clearly states in the wiki 7% damage.

Only Marth's counter was like that...Roy's does 1.5x the original attack's damage.

 

[xDizxy]

Only Marth's counter was like that...Roy's does 1.5x the original attack's damage.

But the person said "melee certainly had varying counters between Marth and Roy ( and peach ). " was just only correcting them.

 

[McDizzle!]

But Xermo was right. Marth's, Roy's and Peach's were all different. Marth does the flat 7%, Roy's does 1.5x the original attack's damage and Peach's is a multi hit counter that does 18% total.

 

[Kenith]

Only Marth's counter was like that...Roy's does 1.5x the original attack's damage.

Well yes, but I think that was balanced by Roy's designed to be slower and more punishable?
And also being a terrible character in Melee.

I don't know. If Marth was how he was in Melee, I'd be all for his old Counter too. But he's not. If he's going to use Counter he probably needs the power it has now, because he's not nearly as aggressive as before.

I can't think of another character that would benefit from a weak Counter designed for follow-ups/speed...Greninja maybe?

 

[xDizxy]

But Xermo was right. Marth's, Roy's and Peach's were all different. Marth does the flat 7%, Roy's does 1.5x the original attack's damage and Peach's is a multi hit counter that does 18% total.

Sorry I thought he or she meant that they did more than 7 damage. My b

 

[McDizzle!]

Sorry I thought he or she meant that they did more than 7 damage. My b

It's all good, dude.

 

[IndigoSSB]

If you manage to read and counter an attack strong enough to KO your opponent then you deserve the kill. Either that or your opponent deserved to lose a stock for throwing the attack out.

Basically, counters are fine. About a fifth of the roster has one, if there was a problem it would have been noticeable .

 

[McDizzle!]

Well yes, but I think that was balanced by Roy's designed to be slower and more punishable?
And also being a terrible character in Melee.

I don't know. If Marth was how he was in Melee, I'd be all for his old Counter too. But he's not. If he's going to use Counter he probably needs the power it has now, because he's not nearly as aggressive as before.

I can't think of another character that would benefit from a weak Counter designed for follow-ups/speed...Greninja maybe?

Yeah, a follow-up counter would be cool for Greninja... It would fit him well. I think that Little Mac would benefit from one, too. It would be nice to have a potential combo after countering someone as Little Mac. They could probably balance it (for Little Mac) by making the KO Punch fail if used about 1 second after the counter... I think it could work.

 

[Raijinken]

A while back someone suggested that counters should only work on moves landing the direction you're facing. As if they need to be MORE situational.

If anything, they probably need improvement. Marth's going from a minor (and exceedingly rarely useful at high skill) "get off me" trick to an actual kill was a great change. They're still stupidly situational, though.

Maybe if they all kept aerial momentum so that you could actually properly fall into someone's attacks.

 

[xDizxy]

Was playing a marth today. Couldn't even combo him. I'd get 2-3 hits then he counterd me. **** gets annoying.

 

[Raijinken]

Was playing a marth today. Couldn't even combo him. I'd get 2-3 hits then he counterd me. **** gets annoying.

Ground or air? In either case, you were probably being a bit too predictable. On the ground, mix in grabs, in the air, wait a moment for the counter then punish.

Takes some getting used to, but eventually counters become near-free punishes instead of dangerous enemy options.

 

[Browny]

I don't know what you're talking about, but melee certainly had varying counters between Marth and Roy (and peach), the latter of which amplified damage and knockback based on attack just like in brawl and smash 4. There's nothing wrong with counters in this game.

There is nothing right with Shulk and Roys counter able to KO at mid %'s while palutena/peach is so much weaker.

 

[Raijinken]

I've killed as early as 30 countering Doc's nair using Hyper Smash and Power Vision.

I think the only reason Palutena's is so weak is because she also gets a reflector. In low-mid levels of play, that's an exceptionally irritating pair of moves to deal with.

 

[McDizzle!]

There is nothing right with Shulk and Roys counter able to KO at mid %'s while palutena/peach is so much weaker.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter anyway because of how easily counters are baited...

I've killed as early as 30 countering Doc's nair using Hyper Smash and Power Vision.

I think the only reason Palutena's is so weak is because she also gets a reflector. In low-mid levels of play, that's an exceptionally irritating pair of moves to deal with.

I agree. That's probably why. As for Peach... The only perk I can think of for her counter is that it always does 18% whenever it hits, so it's pretty consistent.

 

[MockRock]

Quite frankly, I'd kind of like counters to go away. They were interesting back in Melee when they were a very unique and niche move concept, but now far too many characters have them and they're neither particularly interesting not fun to fight against. I'd personally go with a system closer to Melee's, and give newer character different moves instead. Palutena and Greninja had gigantic pools of inspiration to draw from, why the hell do they have counters?

 

[McDizzle!]

Quite frankly, I'd kind of like counters to go away. They were interesting back in Melee when they were a very unique and niche move concept, but now far too many characters have them and they're neither particularly interesting not fun to fight against. I'd personally go with a system closer to Melee's, and give newer character different moves instead. Palutena and Greninja had gigantic pools of inspiration to draw from, why the hell do they have counters?

Well its not like half the cast has a counter, dude. Plus it makes sense for the characters that have counters to well...have counters. I guess the only person it doesn't make sense for is Palutena but she still has a handful of different moves to choose from for specials, and since her default set of specials is more defensive they gave her a counter. Also I can't really see how counters aren't interesting or fun to fight against... Can you elaborate?

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Counters are fine as they are. Watch some competitive play and tell me how often you see someone using a counter. It's very unlikely that you'll see any because once you get to a certain level of play, they aren't good moves to throw out. I mean throwing a counter out in the neutral is obviously a stupid idea, and if you're able to get a read, chances are there'll be a better way to punish the other play than with a counter. Learning to deal with counters will only make you a better player. They aren't getting changed, and they certainly aren't going away, so you best learn how to bait and abuse them.

 

[MockRock]

Well its not like half the cast has a counter, dude. Plus it makes sense for the characters that have counters to well...have counters. I guess the only person it doesn't make sense for is Palutena but she still has a handful of different moves to choose from for specials, and since her default set of specials is more defensive they gave her a counter. Also I can't really see how counters aren't interesting or fun to fight against... Can you elaborate?

It feels like there's too much guesswork with them, that's my main problem. It's quite easy to die to the one time a player threw a counter out because of how strong they are, and you don't really feel like necessarily earned the kill. Or I don't, anyways. And yes, there are certainly times where counters are used in interesting and skilled ways as well, I'm not denying that.

I'm not saying counters are a broken mechanic or anything, and there are certainly plenty of ways to play around them, but if I were God of Smash Bros they'd be out. It's the same as preferring Melee air dodges to Brawl; there's no objectively correct viewpoint, but you probably have a pretty strong one either way.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Seems kind of silly the gripes that some people have with Counters; and honestly, I don't see how they were better where only 3 characters had them in Melee and that now it takes away from their value; the same can be said for reflectors and projectiles. Like those two, counters can be a practical move to have so that is a good reason to spread them among several characters. Heck, is not even that many that have them, only like nine characters.

Anyways, I never expected to see the day people would call a Counter cheap. If you get a kill with it it's either because you anticipated your opponent and committed to a successful read thus rewarding you or because your opponent made the bad decision of being predictable and randomly decided to start charging a Smash attack out of the blue. Sorry, but you saying stuff like that they don't deserve a kill when at those times it was mostly your fault for being rash in attacking makes you sound like a sore loser; I'm actually relieved that you are not the one deciding moves for a character.

 

[MockRock]

Seems kind of silly the gripes that some people have with Counters; and honestly, I don't see how they were better where only 3 characters had them in Melee and that now it takes away from their value; the same can be said for reflectors and projectiles. Like those two, counters can be a practical move to have so that is a good reason to spread them among several characters. Heck, is not even that many that have them, only like nine characters.

Anyways, I never expected to see the day people would call a Counter cheap. If you get a kill with it it's either because you anticipated your opponent and committed to a successful read thus rewarding you or because your opponent made the bad decision of being predictable and randomly decided to start charging a Smash attack out of the blue. Sorry, but you saying stuff like that they don't deserve a kill when at those times it was mostly your fault for being rash in attacking makes you sound like a sore loser; I'm actually relieved that you are not the one deciding moves for a character.

I put several disclaimers in my post, including:

a) Counters are not broken.

b) Counters can certainly be used with skill.

c) My subjective opinion is not the same thing as an objective fact.

Any chance you read them? I'm fully entitled to say I don't like counters, in the same way as I don't like spammable air dodges or fast shield regeneration. Everyone has a vision of what they would change to make the game perfect for them. Yours is probably different than mine is. That's fine. Calling me "silly" and a "sore loser" is definitely not.

 

[Xandercosm]

Should counters be like they were in melee

They shouldn't exist at all.

 

[McDizzle!]

They shouldn't exist at all.

Why shouldn't they exist?

 

[Xandercosm]

Why shouldn't they exist?

dey shoudn

 

[xDizxy]

Dude smash/buster Shulk counter is op

 

[McDizzle!]

dey shoudn

*sigh* could you please explain?

Dude smash/buster Shulk counter is op

It's not OP, it's a hard read. The person who did that deserved the kill. Also, COUNTERS ARE BAITABLE AND SUPER EASY TO PUNISH.

 

[xDizxy]

*sigh* could you please expain?

It's not OP, it's a hard read. The person who did that deserved the kill. Also, COUNTERS ARE BAITABLE AND SUPER EASY TO PUNISH.

Ok what if you're a slow character? That's an easy counter right there. Wish it was like melee.

 

[IndigoSSB]

Ok what if you're a slow character? That's an easy counter right there. Wish it was like melee.

The solution is simple; wait for the counter to end, then attack. Also known as a punish.

 

[CCTANK93]

Ok what if you're a slow character? That's an easy counter right there. Wish it was like melee.

Slow characters have the best punish options for counters. My friend plays Bowser and I play Lucina and whenever I go for a counter, he knows that he has to wait and then I get hit by a fully charged F Smash. Counters aren't that difficult to predict. Usually if you're pummeling an opponent that has a counter, they'll likely use it so that's the optimal time to punish them.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Ok what if you're a slow character? That's an easy counter right there. Wish it was like melee.

Wait it out, do a heavy a punish. Heavies love it even more than other characters when their opponent exposes itself like that. It's not rocket science, dude.

 

[JAZZ_]

Ok what if you're a slow character? That's an easy counter right there. Wish it was like melee.

In other words what these people are politely trying to tell you is to get better at this game. Counters aren't an issue, In fact people who often play with characters that have them are laughably predictable.
Just play a smarter game, it'll be better for you then.

 

[Arle Nadja]

I once customized yoshi for full offense and got KO'd at 0% by a Mii Swordsman countering my FAIR from center stage on Wily's Castle.

Broken game is broken. I'd take either melee counters or a weaker effect, but as it stands most counters pay off a bit too much for what amounts to gimmicky mind games.

 

[McDizzle!]

I once customized yoshi for full offense and got KO'd at 0% by a Mii Swordsman countering my FAIR from center stage on Wily's Castle.

Broken game is broken. I'd take either melee counters or a weaker effect, but as it stands most counters pay off a bit too much for what amounts to gimmicky mind games.

*sigh* The game is not broken. COUNTERS ARE BAITABLE!!! People can see them coming from a mile away and that's why they are so strong! It's a high risk high reward move! You have to make a hard read to land a counter, which is pretty hard to do sometimes.

 

[Arle Nadja]

*sigh* The game is bot broken.

What part of 0% to death from center stage is not clearly broken to you?

 

[McDizzle!]

What part of 0% to death from center stage is not clearly broken to you?

1. Hard read
2. you were using a glass cannon full offense Yoshi... What did you expect?

 

[Arle Nadja]

1. Hard read
2. you were using a glass cannon full offense Yoshi... What did you expect?

Nothing else short of maybe Mac's KO Punch or Wario's Waft comes even close to that level of absurd power.

And you don't see how that could be over the top broken? Somehow a 'hard read' immediately justifies insta-ko from center stage? You need to work with me here.