Short-Jump into Flame Choke

[SmashAmass]

Ever since Project M, I have been gleefully maining as Ganondorf, simply due to his well rounded nature and overall improved recovery and approach options (compared to melee that is). One of these moves that are especially effective is the Flame Choke, which has been given a proper buff from Brawl (and one that is fair to the player and opponent due to teching options). However, oddly enough, the Air Flame Choke is far more effective in every mean, yet it can still be used through a short-jump to get the same effect as the grounded Flame Choke without the punishment towards the player. Here's why:
*Enemies cannot tech out of the air Flame Choke, which makes sense for recovery's sake, but not when used on grounded enemies from a short-jump.
*Overall punishment for missed approach is relatively similar, but still slightly better from a short-hop due to overall distance gained being greater (since the fall momentum carries the player slightly more, easing recovery).
*Vertical distance from short hop is only very small, so it can be used to approach grounded enemies the same way as the Grounded Flame Choke (and possibly better, considering it has a height advantage over the opponent, covering more vertical area).
*Execution time is very very close to a grounded side B, and possibly near identical if executed right

So my question is, why use the grounded Flame Choke if the Air Flame Choke has no tech counters and near identical start up time?

 

[Kally Wally]

Grounded Flame Choke looks cool.

Pretty sure that's all.

 

[SmashAmass]

Ever since Project M, I have been gleefully maining as Ganondorf, simply due to his well rounded nature and overall improved recovery and approach options (compared to melee that is). One of these moves that are especially effective is the Flame Choke, which has been given a proper buff from Brawl (and one that is fair to the player and opponent due to teching options). However, oddly enough, the Air Flame Choke is far more effective in every mean, yet it can still be used through a short-jump to get the same effect as the grounded Flame Choke without the punishment towards the player. Here's why:
*Enemies cannot tech out of the air Flame Choke, which makes sense for recovery's sake, but not when used on grounded enemies from a short-jump.
*Overall punishment for missed approach is relatively similar, but still slightly better from a short-hop due to overall distance gained being greater (since the fall momentum carries the player slightly more, easing recovery).
*Vertical distance from short hop is only very small, so it can be used to approach grounded enemies the same way as the Grounded Flame Choke (and possibly better, considering it has a height advantage over the opponent, covering more vertical area).
*Execution time is very very close to a grounded side B, and possibly near identical if executed right

What's more confusing, is that the Project M team advertized this teching based mechanic as the prime feature of Ganondorf's makeover. So my question is, why use the grounded Flame Choke if the Air Flame Choke has no tech counters and near identical start up time?

 

[SmashAmass]

huh, that's unusual, I was trying to edit this post and it made it a comment... well yeah, that's odd.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

It does have a tech window, you just don't tech on the first "bounce", it's actually the second time you land (If I remember correctly)

It's trippy and always screws up my timing, so it's definitely good to mix them up to keep the opponent on their toes, but it IS techable, and just using one version of the Gerudo Choker will lead to the opponent having an easier time teching.

 

[CORY]

aerial flame choke is techable, but the bounce is guaranteed, iirc.

and there are differences between aerial and grounded flame choke. grounded goes further and has less lag (since you don't stall in the air and then land, AND THEN have your recovery frames), but you get less setup time from hitting it. aerial has a much shorter range and longer recovery on whiff, but you can get more guaranteed setups on different characters (someone made a list on smashmods of what you're capable of doing on each character. it ranged from nothing guaranteed on fox/falco fall speeds up to something like, jab, ftilt, usmash, uair, basically whatever you wanted, on a jigglypuff).

you can get tricky situations where you get grounded length/recovery, but aerial bounce, but i believe that's only possible with a ledge (you time your ledge hop just right and start the flame choke just barely before you get on stage. you get the best of both worlds, but that's the only way i know of to pull it off).

 

[~Frozen~]

I actually made a list of who Ganon can Air SideB -> Grab as a guaranteed combo since I can't find the old thread. It's a more reliable way to land a grab in MU's where this wouldn't normally be very feasible, such as Marth, Jigglypuff, or ROB and can help set up for Ganon's CG or whatever kill setup you want out of Dthrow.

http://pastebin.com/SNLiDmiC

Hopefully the old thread from smashmods returns as there are some more options you can do to certain characters.

 

[SmashAmass]

I actually made a list of who Ganon can Air SideB -> Grab as a guaranteed combo since I can't find the old thread. It's a more reliable way to land a grab in MU's where this wouldn't normally be very feasible, such as Marth, Jigglypuff, or ROB and can help set up for Ganon's CG or whatever kill setup you want out of Dthrow.

http://pastebin.com/SNLiDmiC

Hopefully the old thread from smashmods returns as there are some more options you can do to certain characters.

Thanks for that! This will come in handy when practicing Tech chases, wonder where the original thread went...

 

[SmashAmass]

aerial flame choke is techable, but the bounce is guaranteed, iirc.

and there are differences between aerial and grounded flame choke. grounded goes further and has less lag (since you don't stall in the air and then land, AND THEN have your recovery frames), but you get less setup time from hitting it. aerial has a much shorter range and longer recovery on whiff, but you can get more guaranteed setups on different characters (someone made a list on smashmods of what you're capable of doing on each character. it ranged from nothing guaranteed on fox/falco fall speeds up to something like, jab, ftilt, usmash, uair, basically whatever you wanted, on a jigglypuff).

you can get tricky situations where you get grounded length/recovery, but aerial bounce, but i believe that's only possible with a ledge (you time your ledge hop just right and start the flame choke just barely before you get on stage. you get the best of both worlds, but that's the only way i know of to pull it off).

Sorry for the long response, website was being weird and wouldn't let me quote you. Thanks for the detailing of the Air Flame Choke, I also noticed the punishment for a missed Air Flame Choke is slightly more (due to the recovery being the same length as ground after landing, giving a larger opening). Seems very risk/reward gameplay style, but still essential for a proper unpredictability to your moveset. Also, I assume being in the air for a short period of time would make you more vulnerable to air juggle and KO potential would increase, correct?

 

[leelue]

being an inch off the ground and on the ground matters very little in terms of how much you can get juggled. I really do with that there were more moves that were better/different against airborne opponents than grounded ones but they don't really exist (mario's Fair is the only one I can think of).
Not counting earthquake effects

 

[CORY]

leelue, how close can you do a flamechoke off the ground? legit question, i've always assumed you have to be a decent amount in the air to do it out of a jump, but if it's possible to get a SUPER close to the ground one without having to almost land, that'd be awesome : o

 

[SmashAmass]

leelue, how close can you do a flamechoke off the ground? legit question, i've always assumed you have to be a decent amount in the air to do it out of a jump, but if it's possible to get a SUPER close to the ground one without having to almost land, that'd be awesome : o

You can get it nearly identical in vertical height from the original flame choke, but it has disadvantages after using it. It has less comboing potential and more punishment is missed (since the recovery time is more than on ground). But yes, you can do it, and it's a fantastic way to spice up your strategy and keep the enemy on his feet.

 

[Phaiyte]

There is literally no reason in the world to use grounded Side B. Although with an aerial one there's plenty of options you can incorporate upon landing before your opponent can tech. Some opponents you can just straight up grab them, you can at least jab everyone in the game, and if they miss the recovery you can stomp them; and then depending on % you can L Cancel that and jSide B them again. It's kinda ridiculous.

 

[leelue]

Some opponents

You cannot jab every opponent in the game, I don't believe.
Even if you could, I'm not doing aerial side Bs near the ledge when I'm behind, grounded side bs deal more damage (or at least they used to), are less dangerous in teams, go farther, don't use your double jump and don't require you to waste a couple frames jumping off the ground.

Cory, Smashamass is right.

 

[SmashAmass]

Some opponents

You cannot jab every opponent in the game, I don't believe.
Even if you could, I'm not doing aerial side Bs near the ledge when I'm behind, grounded side bs deal more damage (or at least they used to), are less dangerous in teams, go farther, don't use your double jump and don't require you to waste a couple frames jumping off the ground.

Cory, Smashamass is right.

Why thank you! But I don't think you have to use your double jump in order to pull off the SJiFC (do I really need to repeat the title?). You only use a single jump really close to the ground, and I don't think the aerial and ground have that much of a difference in damage, it's all about the comboing ability for the most part.

Not to mention, the lost frames in the jumping animation are not incredibly crucial, since the entire move is used in prediction and counter, so the lost frames are simply included in the timing of the move and are non-punishable if done right.

 

[leelue]

if you get hit out of aerial side b, your double jump disappears, for some reason.

 

[SmashAmass]

if you get hit out of aerial side b, your double jump disappears, for some reason.

That's unusual, is it a glitch? or is that to prevent spamming of the air flame choke (since they assumed air choke would mostly be used for on-stage recovery and anti-edge guard).

 

[leelue]

I am almost entirely sure it's on purpose, and was put in 2.1. Why, I don't know.

 

[SmashAmass]

I am almost entirely sure it's on purpose, and was put in 2.1. Why, I don't know.

Yeah, it wasn't spammed or anything, and it's really not practical to spam (due to predictability and poor recovery from miss). It's a little unnecessary, but I assume it was because they felt that it needed more punishment than it already delivers (I think a 0.3 second longer recovery and poorer range are more than enough to hinder it's usability on grounded enemies).

 

[Kally Wally]

Doesn't every move that puts you into helpless fall work that way? ~Because Melee~

 

[leelue]

No, actually. Wario's side B doesn't do this

 

[| Kailex |]

Not enough love for ganon

 

[SmashAmass]

Not enough love for ganon

Nah he's received plenty of love, I consider him a viable competitive character now that they worked out allot of his flaws (side B recovery and Utilt for example). Also his comboing ability has greatly increased due to his changes to his Ftilt and Dtilt, giving him more ranged options along with his flame choke for approach. He's received more than enough tender love and care :3.

 

[| Kailex |]

I want moar

 

[leelue]

Nah he's received plenty of love, I consider him a viable competitive character now that they worked out allot of his flaws (side B recovery and Utilt for example). Also his comboing ability has greatly increased due to his changes to his Ftilt and Dtilt, giving him more ranged options along with his flame choke for approach. He's received more than enough tender love and care :3.

Ftilt has changed beyond the animation change?

 

[SmashAmass]

Ftilt has changed beyond the animation change?

I believe it has a longer hitbox and the hitbox has a higher duration than in Melee, although I could be mistaken. It also has a stronger horizontal gimp and is more effective for a Dtilt into Ftilt combo for good spacing and is usually safe to use.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Ftilt has changed beyond the animation change?

Less start-up. Pretty safe. Can gimp those with poor recovery options rather well. Slightly different hit-box. That's about it, though

 

[leelue]

Yeah I checked last night and the startup times are very very very slightly better, the kb angles are better (especially on the neutral one), and the down angled one reached farther down.