Shines and Fox

[XKCP]

I really like to *spam* shines and try to reach crazy new heights with them, so I'm trying to make videos with them. Other fox tech is great, but nothing is quite as crazy and as fast as the shine cancel.

I have a first, short video already involving 4 shines in succession:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2AqjpTIlOw

I am actually working on a shine-only shield break, if I can get someone to sit there and shield for me (usually my brother will oblige for like 20 mins or so). My bots are too smart/dumb and tend to take the 3rd or 4th shine as a hit rather than keep shielding them. Very frustrating process, but still good practice.

I am also trying to capture more shines in succession now. 3 has become somewhat easy, 4 is doable, and I've managed 5 just recently and am trying to get that on video, and hopefully more like 6 or even 7.

I'll probably post some of my other videos here as well, but it will mostly be on Fox. I'm looking to make a combo video eventually, but I like to combo people and there is currently a lack thereof, so I don't have enough good material yet. That, and the fact that I usually don't care enough to record really competitive matches.

On top of all that, I wouldn't mind taking ideas from anyone who wants to see something that maybe hasn't been done before (except TAS). I like trying to do ridiculous stuff.

 

[The Star King]

Shine-canceling is the dumbest tech in the game. Couldn't learn to consistently get the fast timing, and I tried really hard, when I was able to learn basically everything else I tried to master. **** you shine canceling

...Nice vid though

btw TIP for practicing shield breaks:

Go to training mode and set the computer to attack. CPU will walk in a direction for a couple of seconds, try to stay behind him and he will shield -> roll. He will shield for a bit right after he rolls so that's your OPPORTUNITY to break. Reset. I like to use Mario since he seems to roll most frequently.

 

[XKCP]

Go to training mode and set the computer to attack. CPU will walk in a direction for a couple of seconds, try to stay behind him and he will shield -> roll. He will shield for a bit right after he rolls so that's your OPPORTUNITY to break. Reset. I like to use Mario since he seems to roll most frequently.

I had no clue. Thank you very much; I will get right on this.

 

[Sangoku]

Try breaking a shield with the first shine being a landing-on-platform one...

Otherwise, even if the CPU release the shield, the shield stun should be long enough so you can shine again. That's the whole point of shieldbreaks: they're inescapable. So if you see your 4th shine hits, it's because you're not fast enough between each shine.

 

[XKCP]

Ah, gotcha.

Just how frame perfect can the bots be anyways? I guess generally I catch them as they try to roll away or something like that.

 

[cheeseball341]

How much frame advantage does shining a shield even give?

I think fox's jump is four frames plus one for the shine and i think theres a dead frame as you hit the ground. So shine has to leave at least 5-6 frames of shield stunto be a shield break.

 

[TalosSSB]

Once you learn how to shine properly, you can use it time extra air time from jumps onto a platform for a many possibilities.

 

[Sempiternity]

How much frame advantage does shining a shield even give?

I think fox's jump is four frames plus one for the shine and i think theres a dead frame as you hit the ground. So shine has to leave at least 5-6 frames of shield stunto be a shield break.

Isn't there always four dead frames whenever a character lands (non fast-falled)? So shouldn't a perfect shine cancel be 9 frames?

And I'm pretty sure most people didn't do frame perfect shines every time when breaking a shield with them, so I'd guess a shine leaves 15 or so frames of shield stun.

But that does seem a bit high... maybe you're right about the no landing lag thing. Shines must be weird.

 

[The Star King]

And I'm pretty sure most people didn't do frame perfect shines every time when breaking a shield with them, so I'd guess a shine leaves 15 or so frames of shield stun.

I think the "fast" shines necessary for shieldbreaks/shine jabs/whatever are frame perfect.

Isn't there always four dead frames whenever a character lands (non fast-falled)? So shouldn't a perfect shine cancel be 9 frames?

This is kind of weird, but if you go in 1/4 speed training mode and look... if you start the shine high enough, the landing animation occurs. But if the shine is started pretty low (like less than short hop height) it doesn't.

 

[Sempiternity]

This is kind of weird, but if you go in 1/4 speed training mode and look... if you start the shine high enough, the landing animation occurs. But if the shine is started pretty low (like less than short hop height) it doesn't.

So if the shine is canceled, you get zero (maybe one frame) of landing lag? That is super cool.

 

[cheeseball341]

You can see it at any speed. Shine cancelling doesnt give you normal landing lag. I just feel it has a dead frame because it definately doesnt feel immediate.

I feel it must give around 8-10 frames of advantage to make it as consistent as it is, but it seems to high.

 

[The Star King]

There's also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0q_gFGnZCo

Where he dashes a few frames between each shine

lol Smash64 shieldstun

 

[asianaussie]

so im playing melee and i fair (sheik) a shield, then get grabbed

WHY DO I NOT GET A SHIELDGRAB

and then i play brawl and i fair a shield and get chaingrabbed to death

 

[XKCP]

There's also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0q_gFGnZCo

Where he dashes a few frames between each shine

lol Smash64 shieldstun

Yes, I've seen that before. It's still fast, but it seems like if I put that much time between shines then the bot gets to escape.

 

[ballin4life]

i thought someone already established that pretty much any shine technique (shine jab/ftilt/whatever) has to be frame perfect?

 

[cheeseball341]

I think its "frame perfect" the same way running double lasers are. It isn't a 1 frame link but its sorta hard.

I just want some tas-er to get the actual fframe data on it.

 

[Sangoku]

Ok, let me clear some confusion there...

A shine obviously has to be frame perfect, otherwise it takes way too long before it cancels.

Now a shine on an opponent (or a shield, it's the same hitlag) has 8 frames of ending lag, then you can act. If the opponent is shielding, he can jump after 15 frames since the hit. Since the shine hitbox comes out on the 5th frame (3 of jumping, 2 of downb), you have some time between the shines. You don't need to be frame perfect between shines, and it really makes sense (if you see how fast that **** is, you'll realize that you really don't need to be that fast between them). Concretely, that means you have 4 frames to wander around between each shine. I will make a vid with the fastest shines to shieldbreak and the slowest.

Now shine to stuff doesn't have to be frame perfect. Most shine jab are frame perfect, but not everytime (not on characters like samus, not if the opponent DIs wrongly, not if the opponent is first "into" and above you, ...). Shine to dtilt by a ledge doesn't have to be frame perfect by the way.

Also, shine doesn't have a "landing" lag. Fox doesn't even leave the ground, so that kinda makes sense. The only lag, is the blue polygon animation. And there's no "dead frame" or whatever, since you can act on the last blue polygon frame (meaning if you input an action there, you will perform it normally after that frame,

Spoiler

also means you can BUFFER WHERE YOU AT TALOS

).

That's all for now I guess.

 

[ballin4life]

oh ok it's only the shine cancel that has to be frame perfect on all those. i think that's what i meant as already established - wasn't really thinking about the time in between shine and second move.

 

[XKCP]

Thanks for that info, sangoku. I am not really one who delves into frame data, but it is nice to know specifics and how the game manages data.

 

[Han Solo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTKjzJbT8eU&feature=youtu.be

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah sure, the exact data is kinda irrelevant (it often is), but the key point is that you don't need to be frame perfect between the shines, which makes it a lot easier.

And Han Solo, that was nice. I have a video with 8 myself. Should train that more so I can break consistantly.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah sure, the exact data is kinda irrelevant (it often is), but the key point is that you don't need to be frame perfect between the shines, which makes it a lot easier.

It is relevant because like the entire community argued against me that invisible shines are possible on a flat surface if fast enough and I said no because fast shines are already frame perfect. Star King is always right kids

Spoiler

Jesus that was like 3 years ago kind of SAD I remember that.

 

[Sangoku]

In that case it's different. It wasn't just a matter of number of frames, it had a visible impact.

You said that 3 years ago? Then the debate was brought again afterward. I know that in the european chat some (top players, no names) said that and I've always said the opposite. And I hadn't even seen you write that. It just seemed obvious >_>.

 

[The Star King]

It might have been like 2 years ago IDK, it was a while. I think MAHIE was one of the people who refuted me. That kid is always wrong

 

[ballin4life]

It is relevant because like the entire community argued against me that invisible shines are possible on a flat surface if fast enough and I said no because fast shines are already frame perfect. Star King is always right kids

Spoiler

Jesus that was like 3 years ago kind of SAD I remember that.

dude that was like 3 months ago

also the fact that the right side of hyrule (tent area) is slightly sloped confuses things

 

[Sempiternity]

Ok, let me clear some confusion there...

A shine obviously has to be frame perfect, otherwise it takes way too long before it cancels.

Now a shine on an opponent (or a shield, it's the same hitlag) has 8 frames of ending lag, then you can act. If the opponent is shielding, he can jump after 15 frames since the hit. Since the shine hitbox comes out on the 5th frame (3 of jumping, 2 of downb), you have some time between the shines. You don't need to be frame perfect between shines, and it really makes sense (if you see how fast that **** is, you'll realize that you really don't need to be that fast between them). Concretely, that means you have 4 frames to wander around between each shine. I will make a vid with the fastest shines to shieldbreak and the slowest.

Now shine to stuff doesn't have to be frame perfect. Most shine jab are frame perfect, but not everytime (not on characters like samus, not if the opponent DIs wrongly, not if the opponent is first "into" and above you, ...). Shine to dtilt by a ledge doesn't have to be frame perfect by the way.

Also, shine doesn't have a "landing" lag. Fox doesn't even leave the ground, so that kinda makes sense. The only lag, is the blue polygon animation. And there's no "dead frame" or whatever, since you can act on the last blue polygon frame (meaning if you input an action there, you will perform it normally after that frame,

Spoiler

also means you can BUFFER WHERE YOU AT TALOS

).

That's all for now I guess.

Wait, am I missing something here? You said 8 frames of hitlag + 5 frames until the next shine can come out, and that makes 13 frames in between perfect shines. So don't you only have 2 frames to wander?

Either way, this is conservative, since most people aren't mashing the jump button once per frame, so you'll likely have a few more frames to input a shine.

I'd actually be curious to figure out the average person's "button press per frame" speed.


Another question regarding hitlag. Is hitlag always 8 frames? Or is it half (rounded up) of the shield stun? Or something else?

 

[The Star King]

dude that was like 3 months ago

also the fact that the right side of hyrule (tent area) is slightly sloped confuses things

The one I'm thinking of definitely wasn't. Maybe it was brought up again. Lord knows 64 discussion likes rehashing part arguments.

And yeah I know I'm the one who found that out/told you remember

 

[Sangoku]

Wait, am I missing something here? You said 8 frames of hitlag + 5 frames until the next shine can come out, and that makes 13 frames in between perfect shines. So don't you only have 2 frames to wander?

Either way, this is conservative, since most people aren't mashing the jump button once per frame, so you'll likely have a few more frames to input a shine.

I'd actually be curious to figure out the average person's "button press per frame" speed.


Another question regarding hitlag. Is hitlag always 8 frames? Or is it half (rounded up) of the shield stun? Or something else?

There are two mistakes. First the shield stun is 16 frames (my bad). Second, jumping (which is the fastest thing one can do) takes 2 frames (ie it doesn't come out the next frame after your input). On the other hand, when I said 5 frames until the next shine, it really is since you first input the jump to the frame the hitbox comes out.

Maybe an example can help:

Say the hitbox comes out on frame 1. The shielder can input the jump button on frame 17. On frame 19 the shielder will have an invincible frame from leaving the shield. The Fox can input the jump button on frame 9. Fox waits until frame 13 (4 frames) and the next shine hitbox comes out on the 5th frame after, ie frame 18. Since the fastest escape from the shielder was on frame 19, Fox has a frame advantage.

Second thing, I didn't say 8 frames of hitlag, I said 8 frames of ending lag. I don't know how long hitlag normally is and I don't know if it's always the same number of frames.

If I multishine the fastest I can, I sometimes do a string of perfect shines (ie frame perfect between the shines). I recorded it, then passed it frame by frame to see how fast that was. I just realised 4 frames is kinda long to be honest. I mean I shouldn't try to do them as fast as I can, since I'll most likely mess up. Also another practical thing: shielders can't jump at the exact frame needed to escape a shieldbreak, so you have even more room between the shines (cf the shield drop animation thing).

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgOjFvi8Ow

Spoiler

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