Shield pressure

[NEKO']

So i've been experimenting a little bit with putting out shield pressure as rosalina.
so far i think i've found something reliable.

Jab 1 --> Downsmash --> fsmash
They either get shieldbroken or get hit by the smash attack so this is entirely safe as far as i've tested.

Jab 1 --> Downsmash --> Jab 1 --> downsmash
This also shield breaks and is most likely safe but needs a bit more testing, the person i was testing this with had to go in the middle of it.

also a quick thing on the side, i've found this vine showing her nair links into her utilt and potentially a lot more due to the new shield stun changes!
https://vine.co/v/eQJ7b6awDwq

Sorry if this is either incredibly obvious or wrong, but this is my first time posting a thread in the hope i've found something!
Keep on representing rosalina & luma, people! <3

 

[ぱみゅ]

First, I love your Rui avatar

Second, there are a lot of rapid jab technology to apply, specially if Luma is desynched.

There are sure a lot of new stuff to do with this new shield mechanics and RosaLuma's desynchs.

 

[NEKO']

First, I love your Rui avatar

Second, there are a lot of rapid jab technology to apply, specially if Luma is desynched.

There are sure a lot of new stuff to do with this new shield mechanics and RosaLuma's desynchs.

hehe thank you!, i wasn't talking about the rapid jab though, mostly just the quick first jab that links into pretty much everything hehe.
and yes i've tested some rapid jab stuff but they're able to shield SDI out of it really easily and able to drop their shield due to not fast enough repeating hitboxes.

i am however really hype about the neutral air now linking into jab/grab/usmash/dsmash
i'd really love people being on top of the new shield stuff and finding some shield break combo's!

 

[ぱみゅ]

Rapid Jab is mostly a cornering move anyway, it's a potent attack when the opponent is near the ledge.
Never really tried a lot of Nair, guess I'll have to lab it out harder.

 

[NEKO']

Rapid Jab is mostly a cornering move anyway, it's a potent attack when the opponent is near the ledge.
Never really tried a lot of Nair, guess I'll have to lab it out harder.

you should!
so far against quite a lot of players i've gotten the final hit of rosa's nair --> jab --> grab, it's pretty much guaranteed!
and ya, looking at that vine i posted..it creates enough hitstun to get a sweetspot utilt off.
i believe this patch is made sweet changes for us :3

 

[Lavani]

Also a quick thing on the side, i've found this vine showing her nair links into her utilt and potentially a lot more due to the new shield stun changes!
https://vine.co/v/eQJ7b6awDwq

Sheik had time to grab Rosalina before Luma's frame 3 utilt fully came out, Rosalina's at least -4 after a nair like that. I guess it's still a nice mixup situation, but the Luma utilt could be rolled out of or shielded and punished.

Not sure about the strings you mentioned (don't have access to the game currently), but Luma's hitlag modifiers come into play on shield now, which is mostly good news for Rosalina. Lunar Landing nair should be +15 on shield if autocanceled, giving Rosalina a guaranteed grab. Depending on timing it could still be up to +5 with landing lag, which should still be able to get you a grab unless your opponent has a frame 1 OoS option.

Going by the new formula+hitlag mechanics, Luma's dair lost 1 frame of safety, bair broke even, fair is +7 compared to previous patches, nair is +8. Luma's jabs should be a fair bit more advantageous too, but I'd rather wait until I can actually get my hands on the game again than just go by the math there. But, just looking at the numbers, Lunar Landings seem like they'll be better than ever at the very least.

If that got a bit rambly, tl;dr: LL nair/fair/bair should be safer than ever and string into a guaranteed grab on shield.

 

[NEKO']

LL nair/fair should be safer than ever and string into a guaranteed grab on shield.

i've thought about this, glad you pointed this out.
sure going to lab with her more tomorrow.
to be honest though, i don't think someone can react to rosalina her nair (assuming it's spaced correctly)
However i don't really know all the math behind it so i can easily be wrong.

 

[DanGR]

Sheik had time to grab Rosalina before Luma's frame 3 utilt fully came out, Rosalina's at least -4 after a nair like that. I guess it's still a nice mixup situation, but the Luma utilt could be rolled out of or shielded and punished.

Not sure about the strings you mentioned (don't have access to the game currently), but Luma's hitlag modifiers come into play on shield now, which is mostly good news for Rosalina. Lunar Landing nair should be +15 on shield if autocanceled, giving Rosalina a guaranteed grab. Depending on timing it could still be up to +5 with landing lag, which should still be able to get you a grab unless your opponent has a frame 1 OoS option.

Going by the new formula+hitlag mechanics, Luma's dair lost 1 frame of safety, bair broke even, fair is +7 compared to previous patches, nair is +8. Luma's jabs should be a fair bit more advantageous too, but I'd rather wait until I can actually get my hands on the game again than just go by the math there. But, just looking at the numbers, Lunar Landings seem like they'll be better than ever at the very least.

If that got a bit rambly, tl;dr: LL nair/fair should be safer than ever and string into a guaranteed grab on shield.

When you get access to the game, can you check to see if Rosalina's lack of hitlag (upon only Luma hitting) makes the opponent have no shieldlag? I'm referring to this post. I understand that since Luma has hitlag (correct?) the opponent should as well, but I'm just making sure.

Also, Dabuz streamed some of the practical applications of the patch. Here's the replay: http://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/18651696

In other news, all variations of Luma shot have a hitlag modifier of 0 so those should be less safe on block.

---

Edit:
Luma's ground attacks feel less safe on block after the patch, but that doesn't make sense because the high modifiers should theoretically put the defender in more shieldlag.

I've got Luma's hitlag modifiers listed here, for reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q75HZookwyqWAWE_UsgPtvRIoiYXTAK2T9n2VkBM5do/edit?pli=1#gid=0
(If there's no number listed, there's no modifier. It's just 1.)

 

[Lavani]

When you get access to the game, can you check to see if Rosalina's lack of hitlag (upon only Luma hitting) makes the opponent have no shieldlag? I'm referring to this post. I understand that since Luma has hitlag (correct?) the opponent should as well, but I'm just making sure.

Also, Dabuz streamed some of the practical applications of the patch. Here's the replay: http://www.twitch.tv/dabuz18/v/18651696

In other news, all variations of Luma shot have a hitlag modifier of 0 so those should be less safe on block.

It actually works a lot better for me to just go through that VOD frame by frame honestly, testing anything on shield in 3DS training is a terror I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. 30fps is a bit unfortunate, but it'll do.

So what I'm noticing immediately is, I didn't realize the "hitlag modifiers over 1.0 are divided by 1.25 and floored at 1 on shield" bit from last patch still applies. This does mean Luma's getting less of an advantage than I thought, but it's still more hitlag on shield than previously.

Luma's dtilt, usmash, Star Bits, nair, and bair match up with the math.

Luma's rapid jab ender...I am not sure. The first attempt looked normal, the second attempt looked like it was missing a frame of lag/stun and I'm not sure if that means the first attempt dropped shield a bit late or if the second dropped a frame in the recording (or if our hitlag/shieldstun formulae are still slightly off).

But yes, the hitlag is both present and normal as per 1.1.1 standards for Luma's attacks.

EDIT:

Edit:
Luma's ground attacks feel less safe on block after the patch, but that doesn't make sense because the high modifiers should theoretically put the defender in more shieldlag.

Potentially the reason for this is that shield lock plays out during shieldstun/lag now, instead of supposedly being paused during it. Not a mechanic I ever looked into, but I've seen it brought up by users I trust on matters like this, and it seems like a logical explanation.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't see this stuff being too helpful in the future. If these moves are only safe with luma landing I severely question the merits of these things. Anyways I'm not really sure how these changes help her. But I can see things getting worse for her. This change to shield may drop Rosalina outta top ten.

 

[Zonderion]

This is probably the case...

 

[NEKO']

I don't see this stuff being too helpful in the future. If these moves are only safe with luma landing I severely question the merits of these things. Anyways I'm not really sure how these changes help her. But I can see things getting worse for her. This change to shield may drop Rosalina outta top ten.

why would this drop her out of top 10 exactly?

 

[Jams.]

It actually works a lot better for me to just go through that VOD frame by frame honestly, testing anything on shield in 3DS training is a terror I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. 30fps is a bit unfortunate, but it'll do.

So what I'm noticing immediately is, I didn't realize the "hitlag modifiers over 1.0 are divided by 1.25 and floored at 1 on shield" bit from last patch still applies. This does mean Luma's getting less of an advantage than I thought, but it's still more hitlag on shield than previously.

Luma's dtilt, usmash, Star Bits, nair, and bair match up with the math.

Luma's rapid jab ender...I am not sure. The first attempt looked normal, the second attempt looked like it was missing a frame of lag/stun and I'm not sure if that means the first attempt dropped shield a bit late or if the second dropped a frame in the recording (or if our hitlag/shieldstun formulae are still slightly off).

But yes, the hitlag is both present and normal as per 1.1.1 standards for Luma's attacks.

EDIT:

Potentially the reason for this is that shield lock plays out during shieldstun/lag now, instead of supposedly being paused during it. Not a mechanic I ever looked into, but I've seen it brought up by users I trust on matters like this, and it seems like a logical explanation.

This makes a lot more sense than Luma being specifically being nerfed somehow with respect to shield safety. That's good to hear.

 

[DanGR]

Alright, using everything I've learned the past couple of days...
Thanks Lavani!

-----------

Luma dtilt: 3.5 dmg
hitbox active: 8-13
Rosalina FAF: 33
Luma FAF: 32
Luma dtilt hitlag modifier: 1.5

1.1.0 shieldstun formula: (damage/2.56)
1.1.1 shieldstun formula: [(damage / 1.75)+2]

hitlag formula: INT{(Base damage÷2.6＋5)×Hitlag modifier×Element}
(>1 are divided by 1.25 with a ceiling at 1.)

1.1.0 shieldstun of dtilt = 1.7 rounded down[?] to 1.
1.1.1 shieldstun of dtilt = 4
Luma's hitlag = 7.62 rounded down to 7.

-----------

Scenario: Luma dtilt hits on frame 4 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox.

1.1.0
4: Hits shield (technically a powershield in 1.1.0, but let's act as if it's not)
5-10: defender hitlag
5-11: Luma hitlag
11: Shieldstun (1)
12-18: Shieldlock (can use natural OoS options)
19: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
29: Rosalina can act.
35: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -17
Advantage after shield-drop: -3


1.1.1
4: hits shield (powershield window lowered to 1-3 in 1.1.1)
5-11: defender and Luma hitlag
12-15: shieldstun (4)
16: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
29: Rosalina can act.
35: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -13
Advantage after shield-drop: -6


Conclusions (under these conditions: hits on frame 4 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox):
-Rosalina is safer against OoS options by 4 frames.
-Rosalina is less safe against shield-drop options by 3 frames.

-----------

Did I do both of these correctly? Lavani
My goal is to do this for the relevant spacing moves (dtilt/ftilt/jab/fsmash/dsmash) in a variety of situations, and analyze what our options are against different characters, if any.

edit: for accuracy

 

[Lavani]

Technically hitting frame 4 of a shield in 1.1.0 would cause a powershield, and in 1.1.1 the defender and Luma should suffer 7 frames of hitlag (x1.5 modifier on Luma's dtilt), but other than that it lines up with my current understanding of things.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

why would this drop her out of top 10 exactly?

I think a strong defensive character with limited OoS options is going to struggle more than offensive characters.

 

[DanGR]

Technically hitting frame 4 of a shield in 1.1.0 would cause a powershield, and in 1.1.1 the defender and Luma should suffer 7 frames of hitlag (x1.5 modifier on Luma's dtilt), but other than that it lines up with my current understanding of things.

Is "5-11" not 7 frames of hitlag?
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

 

[Lavani]

Bleh, I should stop posting until I've gotten some rest, I'm getting everything mixed up <_>

Meant 1.1.0 would be 5-10f hitlag for the opponent because the hitlag modifier didn't come into play on shield there.

1.1.0: Luma 7f hitlag, defender 6f
1.1.1: Luma and defender 7f hitlag

 

[DanGR]

Scenario: Luma dtilt hits on frame 7 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox.

Spoiler

1.1.0
7: Hits shield
8-13: Defender hitlag
8-14: Luma hitlag
14: Shieldstun (1)
15-18: Shieldlock (can use natural OoS options)
19: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
32: Rosalina can act.
38: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -17
Advantage after shield-drop: -6

1.1.1
7: Hits shield
8-14: Defender and Luma hitlag
15-18: Shieldstun (4)
19: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
32: Rosalina can act.
38: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -13
Advantage after shield-drop: -6

---

Conclusions (under these conditions: hits on frame 7 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox):
-Rosalina is safer against OoS options by 4 frames.
-Rosalina breaks even (0) against shield-drop options.

Scenario: Luma dtilt hits on frame 10 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox.

Spoiler

1.1.0
10: Hits shield
11-16: Defender hitlag
11-17: Luma hitlag
17: Shieldstun (1)
18: Shieldlock (can use natural OoS options)
19: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
35: Rosalina can act.
41: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -17
Advantage after shield-drop: -9

1.1.1
10: Hits shield
11-17: Defender and Luma hitlag
18-21: Shieldstun (4)
22: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
35: Rosalina can act.
41: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -13
Advantage after shield-drop: -6

---

Conclusions (under these conditions: hits on frame 10 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox):
-Rosalina is safer against OoS options by 4 frames.
-Rosalina is safer against shield-drop options by 3 frames.

Scenario: Luma dtilt hits on frame 6 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox.

Spoiler

1.1.0
6: Hits shield
7-12: Defender hitlag
7-13: Luma hitlag
13: Shieldstun (1)
14-18: Shieldlock (can use natural OoS options)
19: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
31: Rosalina can act.
37: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -17
Advantage after shield-drop: -5

1.1.1
6: Hits shield
7-13: Defender and Luma hitlag
14-17: Shieldstun (4)
18: Can enter shield-drop animation of 7 frames at any time.
31: Rosalina can act.
37: Luma can act.

Advantage on OoS options: -13
Advantage after shield-drop: -6

---

Conclusions (under these conditions: hits on frame 6 of a shield, with the frame 8 hitbox):
-Rosalina is safer against OoS options by 4 frames.
-Rosalina is less safe against shield-drop options by 1 frame.

 

[Iron Kraken]

You guys are doing amazing work in here.

Can you help me understand why opponents are now able to shield-drop against Luma's moves more quickly than they did previously (at least during certain shielding frames)?

Is this happening specifically because Luma's d-tilt is a very weak move? Would the same thing be the case for all weak hitting moves in Smash, or only weak hitting projectiles? How about an attack like Sheik's Fair?

I'm trying to understand what makes some attacks prone to (sometimes) being worse on shield than they were before as opposed to others.

 

[Lavani]

To keep it short (it's been pretty wordy in here so far), there's more shieldstun but the 11 frames you're locked into shield also play out during shieldstun now, which results in the vast majority of attacks being safer against OoS options but less safe against shield drop compared to previous versions. Against a shield that's been held 11+ frames or a powershield, attacks are just straight-up safer than before. DanGR's graph above details this.

Damage is a factor to some degree, and it's not unique to projectiles but will come into play against them more simply due to the nature of the attacks.

 

[Zonderion]

You guys are doing amazing work in here.

Can you help me understand why opponents are now able to shield-drop against Luma's moves more quickly than they did previously (at least during certain shielding frames)?

Is this happening specifically because Luma's d-tilt is a very weak move? Would the same thing be the case for all weak hitting moves in Smash, or only weak hitting projectiles? How about an attack like Sheik's Fair?

I'm trying to understand what makes some attacks prone to (sometimes) being worse on shield than they were before as opposed to others.

Also, the new shield stun mechanics do not apply to Luma, from what I understand. From what's been documented, Luma actually does less shield stun now, than in 1.1.0

 

[Iron Kraken]

To keep it short (it's been pretty wordy in here so far), there's more shieldstun but the 11 frames you're locked into shield also play out during shieldstun now, which results in the vast majority of attacks being safer against OoS options but less safe against shield drop compared to previous versions. Against a shield that's been held 11+ frames or a powershield, attacks are just straight-up safer than before. DanGR's graph above details this.

Damage is a factor to some degree, and it's not unique to projectiles but will come into play against them more simply due to the nature of the attacks.

So what you're saying is that in this patch, ALL attacks are LESS safe on shield IF your opponent barely misses the power shield window? Would this include an attack like Ike's Bair, or does it depend on the strength of the attack and/or whether or not the attack is a projectile? Sorry if I'm almost asking you to repeat yourself, but you made it sound as if all attacks in Smash 4 that barely miss being power shielded are now less safe against shield, which really contradicts the way I understood this patch up to this point.

Also, the new shield stun mechanics do not apply to Luma, from what I understand. From what's been documented, Luma actually does less shield stun now, than in 1.1.0

According to @Thinkaman , most of Luma's attacks actually do more shield stun now, while only a few do less shield stun. (Read this)
According to Thinkaman, the following Luma attacks do more shield stun than in the previous patch:
Jabs 1/2/3, Dash Attack, Bair, Dair, D-tilt, U-mash, D-smash (1.5x)
Nair, F-smash (1.7x)
Jab Finisher, initial U-tilt (2.0x)
While these attacks do less shield stun than in the previous patch:
Fair (0.3x)
U-air, late U-tilt, Star Bits #1 (0.5x)

 

[Lavani]

So what you're saying is that in this patch, ALL attacks are LESS safe on shield IF your opponent barely misses the power shield window? Would this include an attack like Ike's Bair, or does it depend on the strength of the attack and/or whether or not the attack is a projectile? Sorry if I'm almost asking you to repeat yourself, but you made it sound as if all attacks in Smash 4 that barely miss being power shielded are now less safe against shield, which really contradicts the way I understood this patch up to this point.



According to @Thinkaman , most of Luma's attacks actually do more shield stun now, while only a few do less shield stun. (Read this)
According to Thinkaman, the following Luma attacks do more shield stun than in the previous patch:
Jabs 1/2/3, Dash Attack, Bair, Dair, D-tilt, U-mash, D-smash (1.5x)
Nair, F-smash (1.7x)
Jab Finisher, initial U-tilt (2.0x)
While these attacks do less shield stun than in the previous patch:
Fair (0.3x)
U-air, late U-tilt, Star Bits #1 (0.5x)

They're LESS safe to shield-drop in that instance, but MORE safe to OoS options.

Taking landing with Ike's bair as an example:

Previously
Ike hits a shield on frame 5
5-14f Both players incur 10 frames of hitlag
15-19f Defender incurs 5 frames of shieldstun
20-25f Defender is able to use OoS options, but still locked in shield.
26f Defender is able to drop shield

Now
Ike hits a shield on frame 5
5-14f Both players incur 10 frames of hitlag
15-24f Defender incurs 10 frames of shieldstun
25f Defender is able to use OoS options or drop shield

Compared to previous patches, he's +5 against grab, OoS usmash/upB, aerials, etc. but -1 against options after dropping shield. If he hits a shield that's been raised for at least 11 frames:

Previously
Ike hits a shield on frame 12
12-21f Both players incur 10 frames of hitlag
22-26f Defender incurs 5 frames of shieldstun
27f Defender is able to use OoS options or drop shield.

Now
Ike hits a shield on frame 12
12-21f Both players incur 10 frames of hitlag
22-31f Defender incurs 10 frames of shieldstun
32f Defender is able to use OoS options or drop shield.

He is +5 against all options compared to before.