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It's, uh... IASA. But I don't think you understand what IASA means. IASA just denotes the earliest possible frame you can act out of an attack.Edit: some ISAS ( I think that's what's called ) D-tilts are fine.
I knowwhat it is. It allows for really quick d-tilt pokes and you can dash safely away.Ken hasn't been a model for Marth mains in years, don't copy his terrible DB habits.
It's, uh... IASA. But I don't think you understand what IASA means. IASA just denotes the earliest possible frame you can act out of an attack.
Idk what you mean by Ken's terrible dancing blade habits lol. I think it's safe to say he's the best at using side-b. Also, this is PM, side-b is faster than it is in Melee. If you're using side-b for shield pressure just predict what they do and you won't be punished. If they roll or go for any oos options then stop mid-dancing blade and punish. If they stay in shield go for the fourth hit.Ken hasn't been a model for Marth mains in years, don't copy his terrible DB habits.
It's, uh... IASA. But I don't think you understand what IASA means. IASA just denotes the earliest possible frame you can act out of an attack.
Never go for the fourth hit only the down version is somewhat safe but it doesnt lead to anything , third hit is enoughIdk what you mean by Ken's terrible dancing blade habits lol. I think it's safe to say he's the best at using side-b. Also, this is PM, side-b is faster than it is in Melee. If you're using side-b for shield pressure just predict what they do and you won't be punished. If they roll or go for any oos options then stop mid-dancing blade and punish. If they stay in shield go for the fourth hit.
I was talking about the fourth hit the entire time but yeah, fourth hit (down) does hella damage on shield. It's not that easy to punish and a lot of players tend to either roll away or release their shield and get hit. It doesn't matter if you can lead it into anything since 80% of the time the opponent will be rolling anyway.Never go for the fourth hit only the down version is somewhat safe but it doesnt lead to anything , third hit is enough
I would much rather break a shield than get a grab. First hit of db to up-tilt doesn't connect unless your DI is bad.in what situation would you use db instead of grab
also i think the point infinity was making is that db itself is a bad habit unless you're using it for the first hit db -> utilt on floaties or something
I doubt they get hit by it that many times for you to generalize your point like that.if anyone seriously gets their shield broken by db then they're not playing the game right
and that would obviously mean that armada, hbox, etc. vs pp have bad di
ok
You're forgetting two things. One: This is PPMD, his Marth is known to do the best options in any situations. Two: This is Melee, PM Marth's side-b is much easier to DI away from.
12:09, 21:50, 30:12, 31:24, 39:16, 42:42, 45:30, 49:18, 50:39
9 stocks off in 2 sets from armada using side-b -> utilt, and this isn't even counting the number of times pp went fishing for it (these are only the times where it's connected, but note that whenever it didn't connect, it was because he missed the initial side-b hit, not because he missed the utilt)
don't you think armada would have adjusted within the first 30 minutes if he could?
Citation for what, the part where side-b is DI-able?1) that doesn't change whether or not something is di-able
2) citation needed
I really don't want to waste my time looking for a credible citation. Just start up Melee, start up PM, get a friend, use side-b and ask him/her to DI. I've actually done this before because I wanted to know the differences between the two characters (PM and Melee Marth). That's all the proof I can/will give you.the part where it's easier to di in pm
Buy the game and then I'll show you proof lol. Db is a perfectly viable option, idk what makes you think it's horrible. I'm not saying that's the only option you should go for and just grabbing is not good. If you feel like mixing it up or if your opponent is at really high percents then it's a great move.i love anecdotal evidence (see: none). don't make claims if you can't back them up lmao
anyway, on topic, side b is bad besides the utilt thing, just dd and dtilt/grab
I would give you frame data, but you probably wouldn't get what any of it means and I don't want to waste my time arguing about this. If you're a Marth main, you should know that he has one of, if not, the hardest time killing at high percents. A d-tilt or a grab from the middle of the stage won't give you anything other than spacing each other out. What I'm saying is db can pressure their shields with the down angle and if they release their shield any time before that then it will put you in a position to edge guard or you can go for the side angle which will kill. Yes it's unsafe, but it's definitely an option that's available and there's no reason not to even somewhat consider it in a match. It's called mix ups, or as some people say "new meta".show it to me then, i have the game right here. i don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove your point since you're the one making the claim. where is it, then?
i'm saying that in any situation where you can use db for shield pressure, you can use grab or dtilt instead for positional advantage instead which is what wins you games. i think it's horrible because you're using a sub-optimal option when a more effective and safe alternative is readily available lol. marth's safest option in the neutral is dtilt, and you should never swing outside of that in the neutral. you're advocating using an unsafe move when a safe option are right there that gives you more to work with.
and if you seriously think that my 9 examples that side-b -> utilt works isn't backing things up then lol
I think you're wrong here. An up throw can be hell on characters that are fastfallers or characters that have trouble coming down, even if their percentage is too high for a true follow up.A d-tilt or a grab from the middle of the stage won't give you anything other than spacing each other out. What I'm saying is db can pressure their shields with the down angle and if they release their shield any time before that then it will put you in a position to edge guard or you can go for the side angle which will kill. Yes it's unsafe, but it's definitely an option that's available and there's no reason not to even somewhat consider it in a match.".
if you want to run away from the problem and pretend like you know more about the game than i do, please, go ahead. your patronizing attitude is about as constructive as explosives and about as toxic to peers as cyanide lmaoI would give you frame data, but you probably wouldn't get what any of it means and I don't want to waste my time arguing about this. If you're a Marth main, you should know that he has one of, if not, the hardest time killing at high percents. A d-tilt or a grab from the middle of the stage won't give you anything other than spacing each other out. What I'm saying is db can pressure their shields with the down angle and if they release their shield any time before that then it will put you in a position to edge guard or you can go for the side angle which will kill. Yes it's unsafe, but it's definitely an option that's available and there's no reason not to even somewhat consider it in a match. It's called mix ups, or as some people say "new meta".
is invalid because it implies Marth would win the neutral if he limits himself to grab/d-tilt etc., but even then opponents can win the neutral...it doesn't matter if your opponent lives to 300% because if they can't do anything substantial to interact with you, then the stock is already gone and you have already won.
And you do realise what game we're talking about right? This is Project M, 0 to deaths are possible, even if you're at 300%. D-tilt doesn't send them off stage unless they're close enough to be off stage. Assuming you hit d-tilt, you've knocked your opponent back and you possibly lost your opportunity to get a kill. There are characters that win the spacing game/neutral against Marth. It will hurt you if you space out your opponent like that so finally I'll conclude by saying this: What you've said about d-tilt is situational. What I've said about db is situational. Both are sub-optimal in different situations.if you want to run away from the problem and pretend like you know more about the game than i do, please, go ahead. your patronizing attitude is about as constructive as explosives and about as toxic to peers as cyanide lmao
if you seriously don't think that grabs/dtilts net you any serious advantage, you need to re-evaluate how this game works. this is a game about positioning. and don't give me that nonsense about marth not being able to kill at higher percents. it doesn't matter if your opponent lives to 300% because if they can't do anything substantial to interact with you, then the stock is already gone and you have already won.
the fact that you admit that you're using an unsafe option when better and safe ones are available just tells me that you choose to take the sub-optimal route on purpose lol
now let me ask you something: which do you think is more beneficial to you?
a) dtilt, a move that's safe on block and leads into a grab on hit (at low %, obv. at higher ones, the dtilt sends them towards the edge anyway, and all you have to do is keep them there until they die)
or b) db, a move that gives you a mix-up when one isn't needed, provides mediocre and, by your own admittance, unsafe shield pressure
telling me that db is a serious consideration in a match (outside of db -> utilt) is telling me that you would rather use the sub-optimal option rather than the optimal one, which is just counter-productive and it will lose you games.
so, no, i don't believe poor options like db should be considered in a match. it's certainly available to you, but jumping off the stage is also available to you and you might as well be doing that if you're going to hand me a free punish.