Shield Pressure as Marth?

[Marp]

I was wondering if any Marths go for d-tilt shield pressure or if they just go for grabs. Is there any advantage to go for a nair to d-tilt to cross-up grab on a shielding opponent? Or should Marth stick to a standard dash dance grab.

 

[NightRaid|tAmA?]

You can just simply grab but at higher % grabs don't have follow-ups. If you can throw them off stage I think a grab is optimal but if not try to bait sidesteps by emptyhopping or mixing up the timing with your aerials.

Edit: some ISAS ( I think that's what's called ) D-tilts are fine.

 

[Peacanator]

The downwards dancing blade is great shield pressure, especially if you're getting tipper. I see Ken do it quite often.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Ken hasn't been a model for Marth mains in years, don't copy his terrible DB habits.

Edit: some ISAS ( I think that's what's called ) D-tilts are fine.

It's, uh... IASA. But I don't think you understand what IASA means. IASA just denotes the earliest possible frame you can act out of an attack.

 

[Boomhound]

Blade dance doesn't work on shield if your opponent knows he/she can roll or Usmash/aerial OOS after the second and third hits.

Grab is best with Marth, though if you want to you can try waiting as your opponent shields and Fsmash if they flinch.

I guess uncharged B can pressure your opponent while they're in shield if it's spaced, though it's somewhat unconventional.

 

[NightRaid|tAmA?]

Ken hasn't been a model for Marth mains in years, don't copy his terrible DB habits.


It's, uh... IASA. But I don't think you understand what IASA means. IASA just denotes the earliest possible frame you can act out of an attack.

I knowwhat it is. It allows for really quick d-tilt pokes and you can dash safely away.

 

[InfinityCollision]

You're still talking about IASA like it's a thing that you do, which it's not. Maybe it's just bad wording, but it's pretty weird to read.

 

[Charby]

Since side b is actually faster in p:m you can use it on shield if you want to keep the enemy guessing , if you space it well and the opponent have no good oos options (usually you want to hit his back with the tip or your side b) . Use the first two hits and watch what they do then react (never use last hit it's useless) :
- If they roll free punish .
-If they jump free fair punish.
-If they wave dash oos (best) you gain ground on your opponent.
Or just use 3 hit if you can stab them.
Third hit of side b (regular version) is a kill move.
And FYI Dancing blade has no tippers.
The best option is to actually grab a shielding opponent, but if they like to spam dodge mix with db pressure.
And it's not useful against every characters

 

[Peacanator]

Ken hasn't been a model for Marth mains in years, don't copy his terrible DB habits.


It's, uh... IASA. But I don't think you understand what IASA means. IASA just denotes the earliest possible frame you can act out of an attack.

Idk what you mean by Ken's terrible dancing blade habits lol. I think it's safe to say he's the best at using side-b. Also, this is PM, side-b is faster than it is in Melee. If you're using side-b for shield pressure just predict what they do and you won't be punished. If they roll or go for any oos options then stop mid-dancing blade and punish. If they stay in shield go for the fourth hit.

 

[Charby]

Idk what you mean by Ken's terrible dancing blade habits lol. I think it's safe to say he's the best at using side-b. Also, this is PM, side-b is faster than it is in Melee. If you're using side-b for shield pressure just predict what they do and you won't be punished. If they roll or go for any oos options then stop mid-dancing blade and punish. If they stay in shield go for the fourth hit.

Never go for the fourth hit only the down version is somewhat safe but it doesnt lead to anything , third hit is enough

 

[Peacanator]

Never go for the fourth hit only the down version is somewhat safe but it doesnt lead to anything , third hit is enough

I was talking about the fourth hit the entire time but yeah, fourth hit (down) does hella damage on shield. It's not that easy to punish and a lot of players tend to either roll away or release their shield and get hit. It doesn't matter if you can lead it into anything since 80% of the time the opponent will be rolling anyway.

 

[.alizarin]

in what situation would you use db instead of grab

also i think the point infinity was making is that db itself is a bad habit unless you're using it for the first hit db -> utilt on floaties or something

 

[Peacanator]

in what situation would you use db instead of grab

also i think the point infinity was making is that db itself is a bad habit unless you're using it for the first hit db -> utilt on floaties or something

I would much rather break a shield than get a grab. First hit of db to up-tilt doesn't connect unless your DI is bad.

 

[.alizarin]

if anyone seriously gets their shield broken by db then they're not playing the game right

and that would obviously mean that armada, hbox, etc. vs pp have bad di

ok

 

[Peacanator]

if anyone seriously gets their shield broken by db then they're not playing the game right

and that would obviously mean that armada, hbox, etc. vs pp have bad di

ok

I doubt they get hit by it that many times for you to generalize your point like that.

 

[.alizarin]

12:09, 21:50, 30:12, 31:24, 39:16, 42:42, 45:30, 49:18, 50:39

9 stocks off in 2 sets from armada using side-b -> utilt, and this isn't even counting the number of times pp went fishing for it (these are only the times where it's connected, but note that whenever it didn't connect, it was because he missed the initial side-b hit, not because he missed the utilt)

don't you think armada would have adjusted within the first 30 minutes if he could?

 

[Peacanator]

12:09, 21:50, 30:12, 31:24, 39:16, 42:42, 45:30, 49:18, 50:39

9 stocks off in 2 sets from armada using side-b -> utilt, and this isn't even counting the number of times pp went fishing for it (these are only the times where it's connected, but note that whenever it didn't connect, it was because he missed the initial side-b hit, not because he missed the utilt)

don't you think armada would have adjusted within the first 30 minutes if he could?

You're forgetting two things. One: This is PPMD, his Marth is known to do the best options in any situations. Two: This is Melee, PM Marth's side-b is much easier to DI away from.

 

[.alizarin]

1) that doesn't change whether or not something is di-able

2) citation needed

 

[Peacanator]

1) that doesn't change whether or not something is di-able

2) citation needed

Citation for what, the part where side-b is DI-able?

 

[.alizarin]

the part where it's easier to di in pm

 

[Peacanator]

the part where it's easier to di in pm

I really don't want to waste my time looking for a credible citation. Just start up Melee, start up PM, get a friend, use side-b and ask him/her to DI. I've actually done this before because I wanted to know the differences between the two characters (PM and Melee Marth). That's all the proof I can/will give you.

 

[.alizarin]

i love anecdotal evidence (see: none). don't make claims if you can't back them up lmao

anyway, on topic, side b is bad besides the utilt thing, just dd and dtilt/grab

 

[Peacanator]

i love anecdotal evidence (see: none). don't make claims if you can't back them up lmao

anyway, on topic, side b is bad besides the utilt thing, just dd and dtilt/grab

Buy the game and then I'll show you proof lol. Db is a perfectly viable option, idk what makes you think it's horrible. I'm not saying that's the only option you should go for and just grabbing is not good. If you feel like mixing it up or if your opponent is at really high percents then it's a great move.
Last thing, you haven't backed up anything yourself, don't make claims about others when you do it yourself.

 

[.alizarin]

show it to me then, i have the game right here. i don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove your point since you're the one making the claim. where is it, then?

i'm saying that in any situation where you can use db for shield pressure, you can use grab or dtilt instead for positional advantage instead which is what wins you games. i think it's horrible because you're using a sub-optimal option when a more effective and safe alternative is readily available lol. marth's safest option in the neutral is dtilt, and you should never swing outside of that in the neutral. you're advocating using an unsafe move when a safe option are right there that gives you more to work with.

and if you seriously think that my 9 examples that side-b -> utilt works isn't backing things up then lol

 

[Chesstiger2612]

On the side-B question just in general. It is not a great move. Use it if there is a concrete reason for it, but otherwise just use your standard moves. Side-B is not a good move on shield.
One of those concrete reasons could be that you want to combo side-B->up-tilt against a floaty. This is legit, and is a good reason for side-B to be used.
If it gets shielded, such side-Bs shouldn't be interpreted as sheild pressure, but as move that got countered (by shielding) and had the intention not to get shielded. If you then see Marth's using the other hits of DB, they just want to make it as hard as possible to punish the first hit of side-B and get a mixup situation by using different timings on the 2nd to 4th hit.

Think of it in a way that Marth doesn't run in and side-Bs with the intention: "I will destroy their shield", but rather: "Hopefully I hit them" and if it is shielded "Let's make the best out of it and use the other side-B hits to potentially confuse them and escape".

 

[Peacanator]

show it to me then, i have the game right here. i don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove your point since you're the one making the claim. where is it, then?

i'm saying that in any situation where you can use db for shield pressure, you can use grab or dtilt instead for positional advantage instead which is what wins you games. i think it's horrible because you're using a sub-optimal option when a more effective and safe alternative is readily available lol. marth's safest option in the neutral is dtilt, and you should never swing outside of that in the neutral. you're advocating using an unsafe move when a safe option are right there that gives you more to work with.

and if you seriously think that my 9 examples that side-b -> utilt works isn't backing things up then lol

I would give you frame data, but you probably wouldn't get what any of it means and I don't want to waste my time arguing about this. If you're a Marth main, you should know that he has one of, if not, the hardest time killing at high percents. A d-tilt or a grab from the middle of the stage won't give you anything other than spacing each other out. What I'm saying is db can pressure their shields with the down angle and if they release their shield any time before that then it will put you in a position to edge guard or you can go for the side angle which will kill. Yes it's unsafe, but it's definitely an option that's available and there's no reason not to even somewhat consider it in a match. It's called mix ups, or as some people say "new meta".

 

[Marp]

A d-tilt or a grab from the middle of the stage won't give you anything other than spacing each other out. What I'm saying is db can pressure their shields with the down angle and if they release their shield any time before that then it will put you in a position to edge guard or you can go for the side angle which will kill. Yes it's unsafe, but it's definitely an option that's available and there's no reason not to even somewhat consider it in a match.".

I think you're wrong here. An up throw can be hell on characters that are fastfallers or characters that have trouble coming down, even if their percentage is too high for a true follow up.

Also marth is generally supposed to keep it safe, I mean rouge f-smashes are always an option, but 95% of the time, they are a terrible one. DB is just not a very good move outside specific situations.

 

[.alizarin]

I would give you frame data, but you probably wouldn't get what any of it means and I don't want to waste my time arguing about this. If you're a Marth main, you should know that he has one of, if not, the hardest time killing at high percents. A d-tilt or a grab from the middle of the stage won't give you anything other than spacing each other out. What I'm saying is db can pressure their shields with the down angle and if they release their shield any time before that then it will put you in a position to edge guard or you can go for the side angle which will kill. Yes it's unsafe, but it's definitely an option that's available and there's no reason not to even somewhat consider it in a match. It's called mix ups, or as some people say "new meta".

if you want to run away from the problem and pretend like you know more about the game than i do, please, go ahead. your patronizing attitude is about as constructive as explosives and about as toxic to peers as cyanide lmao

if you seriously don't think that grabs/dtilts net you any serious advantage, you need to re-evaluate how this game works. this is a game about positioning. and don't give me that nonsense about marth not being able to kill at higher percents. it doesn't matter if your opponent lives to 300% because if they can't do anything substantial to interact with you, then the stock is already gone and you have already won.

the fact that you admit that you're using an unsafe option when better and safe ones are available just tells me that you choose to take the sub-optimal route on purpose lol

now let me ask you something: which do you think is more beneficial to you?

a) dtilt, a move that's safe on block and leads into a grab on hit (at low %, obv. at higher ones, the dtilt sends them towards the edge anyway, and all you have to do is keep them there until they die)

or b) db, a move that gives you a mix-up when one isn't needed, provides mediocre and, by your own admittance, unsafe shield pressure

telling me that db is a serious consideration in a match (outside of db -> utilt) is telling me that you would rather use the sub-optimal option rather than the optimal one, which is just counter-productive and it will lose you games.

so, no, i don't believe poor options like db should be considered in a match. it's certainly available to you, but jumping off the stage is also available to you and you might as well be doing that if you're going to hand me a free punish.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You shouldn't disregard @ Peacanator 's view just because he recommends an option which is less safe and has higher reward. While I think that in this particular case, DB is really the worse options, if you applied @ .alizarin 's argument, the unsafer option being bad, to other matchups you will maybe see only half as much Fox up-smashs as in pro matches.
If it is an option quick enough to be potentially hitting (which DB is, in contrary to for example Falcon Punch in neutral), there are many factors which decide whether it is a good option or not.
Marth has plenty of alternatives, but he sometimes does have the problem of getting a kill too late and this

it doesn't matter if your opponent lives to 300% because if they can't do anything substantial to interact with you, then the stock is already gone and you have already won.

is invalid because it implies Marth would win the neutral if he limits himself to grab/d-tilt etc., but even then opponents can win the neutral...

However, I think the positioning argument is very valid and both grabs and d-tilts often lead to more (which Strong Bad called "staggered hit situation" in his guide, and basically is less than a tech-chase and more than neutral game).
And the risk/reward-ratio is only OK is only good for DB if you have side-B->up-tilt, because otherwise you will only get the KO in a fraction of the hits you get the first hit and that is also only a fraction of your attempts.

My conclusion would be:
DB is not a good shield pressure move and should only be used if there is a concrete reason for it.
One should not be discouraged from using options with less option coverage if they grant higher reward (do not mistake this with going for gimmicks, which are attacks that an opponent only falls for if he plays suboptimal), but those should be examined more carefully, because many of them are questionable.

 

[Boomhound]

People have been trying to make db work for years, Ken still is and he loses more stocks over it than takes.

The best use I've ever seen for it is M2K jumping off-stage and spiking with the 3rd hit- in other words showing off.

The reasoning as to why you shouldn't use more than the first hit is that its:
(1) Punishable.
(2) A commitment.
(3) Sub-optimal.

If you pressure someone's shield with it (keep in mind the lag after any point past first hit of the combo) they can:
(1) Grab in between hits or after last hit depending on the speed.
(2) Spam roll.
(3) Shine OOS or UpB OOS as Marth, Nair OOS as Sheik etc.
(4) Get this, they can just stay in shield..

With proper spacing you COULD try it as a mix-up, but that can be said about anything.

 

[Charby]

It's not melee, i kill floaties characters with the third hit of my side b. It's faster than FSmash and easier to land, it's hard to di out of it and if he's in the air he's dead.
It's not useless by any means but to use this as a shield pressure tool it's not that great
Marth is not a shield pressing character , you don't need to swing your sword to pressure your opponent.
You merely needs to Dash toward him , they shall tremble before the might of our dash dance.
Be aggressive enough and you will force him to roll out of fear.
Or if he's better to give up position

 

[Peacanator]

I don't wanna reply to all the comments but I'll say this. Db is an option, nothing more. Every move in the game is countered so if you feel like dash dancing is too obvious, there is no reason not to consider it. Of course it's punishable and of course you could do other things but as a mix up not many, if not, none will expect a side-b if they've ever played the game. It does a decent amount of shield damage and makes your opponent think twice before say, wavedash back and punish, or other options that would "counter" dash dance grab.

 

[Peacanator]

if you want to run away from the problem and pretend like you know more about the game than i do, please, go ahead. your patronizing attitude is about as constructive as explosives and about as toxic to peers as cyanide lmao

if you seriously don't think that grabs/dtilts net you any serious advantage, you need to re-evaluate how this game works. this is a game about positioning. and don't give me that nonsense about marth not being able to kill at higher percents. it doesn't matter if your opponent lives to 300% because if they can't do anything substantial to interact with you, then the stock is already gone and you have already won.

the fact that you admit that you're using an unsafe option when better and safe ones are available just tells me that you choose to take the sub-optimal route on purpose lol

now let me ask you something: which do you think is more beneficial to you?

a) dtilt, a move that's safe on block and leads into a grab on hit (at low %, obv. at higher ones, the dtilt sends them towards the edge anyway, and all you have to do is keep them there until they die)

or b) db, a move that gives you a mix-up when one isn't needed, provides mediocre and, by your own admittance, unsafe shield pressure

telling me that db is a serious consideration in a match (outside of db -> utilt) is telling me that you would rather use the sub-optimal option rather than the optimal one, which is just counter-productive and it will lose you games.

so, no, i don't believe poor options like db should be considered in a match. it's certainly available to you, but jumping off the stage is also available to you and you might as well be doing that if you're going to hand me a free punish.

And you do realise what game we're talking about right? This is Project M, 0 to deaths are possible, even if you're at 300%. D-tilt doesn't send them off stage unless they're close enough to be off stage. Assuming you hit d-tilt, you've knocked your opponent back and you possibly lost your opportunity to get a kill. There are characters that win the spacing game/neutral against Marth. It will hurt you if you space out your opponent like that so finally I'll conclude by saying this: What you've said about d-tilt is situational. What I've said about db is situational. Both are sub-optimal in different situations.

 

[Boomhound]

I haven't explored it in-depth in P:M so I do apologise if some of my information is inaccurate, my possibly flawed opinion was the same when I tested it in P:M and I mostly find it a mix-up tool.

Having said that, despite considering Marth a character that doesn't exactly need shield pressure,
(as all characters that have shield-pressure apply it in compensation of having more trouble getting grabs than Marth- i.e. Lucas, Fox or even Samus) I'm wholly in favour of seeing the db used creatively.

It'd be great to see some footage of it being applied as shield pressure so we can theory-craft and iron it out.

 

[Preacher]

The one thing I don't see a lot of Marth players using is shield breaker. The move is used so little so nobody is going to try and bait it out without you having used it a few times before. Up-air and/or up-tilt from below the platform and then if they still stay on the platform then short hop and use shield breaker. Basically use shield breaker to punish people who camp in shield in places you can't grab.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

I really would like to know how a thread titled "Shield Pressure as Marth?" can somehow turn into a conversation about what's "good" in the neutral. With that said, what's good in the neutral is a bit dependent on the opponent's options, is it not? I'm not simply talking about match-up, but there's kind of a huge mechanic relating to percentage and knockback, and the whole crouch cancelling thing. As soon as the opponent can't CC jab, what's wrong with that as a move in the neutral? Or any of Marth's fast moves once percent is high enough? Yeah, Dtilt's lack of lag is nice, but if you aren't catching the opponent dashing back to tip them, it's not even that great at lower percents.
As far as Dancing Blade as shield pressure goes, it's an option, you could consider mixing in mechanics like wavebouncing to seemingly rush at the opponent, fly back swinging a flurry of swings that doesn't let them wavedash forward, or just apply jab pressure logic. If they're going to try something OoS, attack again, or chase movement, if not, wait (this is also pretty much the same logic with spacie pressure, but every aspect of it is much easier, and multishines are like continuing a jab combo infinitely in this context). It's also nice that side specials tend to let you instantly stop out of a dash with extreme ease, kind of like shielding in initial dash.
I personally think the optimal shield pressure is to stand outside of OoS range, that way you don't have to deal with the lag of your own moves to punish anything OoS, if they wait, yeah, you can't shield forever, and I don't have to worry about Shield DI shenanigans. If you're into a more proactive approach, Dtilt is -5 on block (assuming you hit at the last possibly frame unstaled, which means you're probably fully spaced and someone is sliding the sword closer to your target), and AC nair, is only -2 (again hitting on the last frame unstaled, and that you undergo 4 frames of landing lag, less is possible). When the opponent's shield is low, shield breaker is quite nice, and can also be used as hitbox to defend beneath and in front of you from the air, and it also can be used for b-reverse shenanigans.
Frame advantage is certainly important, but depending on the exact nature of the opponent's OoS game, spacing or how you're moving in relation to their shield can be more important, including things like shield knockback. Frame advantage is more important against an opponent like Jiggs who has massive air speed to attack a spaced move OoS without wavedashing, and ICs have two hurtboxes to make you suffer more lag, but suffer awful shield knockback, allowing a properly spaced, or at least not flying in their face move to be safe. If your opponent is good a shield DI, fading back will inevitably get you more mileage than simply hitting at the farthest possible range, though it may sacrifice some of your potential to punish them retreating (DACUS tho).
Does Marth need to shield pressure? No. Is he especially good at it? No. Should he? Up to you, play the game how you want.
With all of that said, grab is still the best move in Super Smash Bros. (any game) and Marth has one of the best grabs.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Marth can shield pressure really well with sh double aerials, spaced tilts, sh auto cancels into tilts, or dash dances.

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

^

Spacial shield pressure with good range and dd , the threatening of space to create openings with attacks and baits to punish them. The PPMD Kreygasm + umbeonmow theorycraft application that was apex 2015, even though its melee.