Don't make this MU only based off of frame data... ridiculous when people do that because sheik would easily have a +2-5 against everyone if it was that way. You have to go deeper in the MU please...
Alright so to clear up the down throw up air and the "there no kill setups for yoshi in this MU".
First of all you can DI out of down throw up air really easily and you can jump out of it. But if sheik does not DI out it will be a true kill setup.
Now here is a list of kill setups Yoshi can do on sheik.
Easy kill setups(The ones you can pull off more often):
- Jab
- Up Tilt
- Egg Throw
- Forward Air Spike (No Tech)
- Up Throw Under Top Platform of BF (easy tech chase)
Complex Kill Setups(probably won't do very often)
- Full hop up air from ground into up air(yes that works)
- Soft Spot Nair (Because shielding is a thing)
- Egg Lay(This one involves a read but its not impossible)
- Down air off platform into jab lock
COMBOING
Comboing Yoshi still works, you just need to pepper Shield throughout your strings a bit more than other characters. That damn 3-frame N-air will break any string super hard. The magic number you want to remember here is 2. Two F-tilts, then go into shield. Two F-airs, then go into shield. Depending on the opponent you can get in more, but I feel only using two options is the safest, and is good for finding out what your opponent will throw out.
A basic combo will look like this: F-tilt > F-tilt > Shield > Regrab after shielding Yoshi N-air > F-throw > F-air string/Bouncing Fish
Yoshis double jump and armor comes out frame 1. Sheiks fair doesnt break Yoshis double jump sweetspoted untill like 95% no rage or freshnessbonus. I have a thread about it. Also if sheik fairs Yoshi while in double jump armor he can actually still get the trade which is pretty cool.
Now moving on into the "Sheik can punish Yoshis end lag from Egg Toss". Now while this is true... kinda...
Sheik cannot run up and punish a Yoshi who uses eggs at a distance. And saying stuff like Sheik can punish his egg toss with needles is kinda off too. Sheik has to dodge, shield or dash into b reversal for the fastest option and by that time Yoshi will be out of lag. And yes needles do cancel out eggs but eggs go right over them.
-> Agressive Yoshi's suffer too much in this MU (I would say is 70:30)
up.
Going to have to disagree.
If Yoshi is not trading then hes not winning. Eggs IMO don't even really help much in alot of MUs so I don't use them as much. They do pressure though.
You do realize you can autocancel dair from the ledge, and then it straight up combos into down b? You can autocancel yoshi's fair relatively easily too. So, all of this, "it has so much lag" stuff doesn't apply to a really good yoshi.
Sheik still wins the MU imo, but anyway, here is some high level aggressive sheik vs yoshi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquSrZqBYSI
Such an uneven MU. 3-2 last hit situation... but yeah. That Yoshi wasn't really full aggresive but campy Yoshis don't do that good against sheik from what I see. He was just trying to get in which is a must for Yoshi.
COMBO INFORMATION
F-throw > Bouncing Fish
-DI away/No DI: 0-25%
-DI up and in: None
D-tilt > U-air Kill combos (Projected DI) (projected DI = Percentage the character dies at, even if they DI)
- D-tilt > U-air: 108% (117%)
- Double jab > D-tilt > U-air: 105% (123%)
- D-tilt opponent hanging on ledge > U-air: 116% (125%)
- D-tilt > Vanish: 109%
Weak N-air > Bouncing Fish
- DI away starting percentage: 100%
- DI away ending percentage: 135%
F-tilt > F-tilt: 18% (Starting percent)
F-tilt > Shorthopped F-air: 33% (Starting percent)
F-tilt > U-smash: 45% - 60%
You sure you tested the right DI for Yoshi? In alot of cases against sheik if Yoshi DIs only up he can actually avoid combos that would be true if he DI'd up and away. Funny thing is downwards DI can actually break some of sheiks combos on Yoshi too like nair combos.
Going to go over trading real quick.
Now we all know Yoshis aerials do 3x-5x more damage and have a much longer hitbox. And all his other moves still do more.
So if Yoshi were to get 1 hit every time sheik got 5 hits Yoshi could possibly still be winning. Another thing is that sheik is kinda FORCED to sheild in this MU because she cannot afford the trade therefor egglay should be landed much more often then usually. Another cool thing is if you dash then pivot behind the egg and jump cancel up smash sheik cannot get you right there and if she tries you get a follow up.
Now Yoshis frame data VS sheik.
Yoshi DOES have the frame data to fight sheik. Alot of Yoshis tilts, smashes, specials, and some of his aerials come out the same speed as sheiks stuff. His frame data is good for how much damage he does. Though not all his moves have as fast as sheiks or the same endlag but endlag really isnt that bad.
In terms of killing for both characters.
Now Yoshi is heavy, floaty, can break combos pretty easily and can live up to 200%.
So Sheik cannot rack up alot of damage on him, kill him or do easy combos.
Sheik is light, a fast faller, cannot break most of Yoshis combos and dies about 80-120. Now Yoshi does have trouble starting up his kill setups but he kills sheik easy with an aerial, read, or punish. Rage just makes things better for him and worse for sheik.
Recovery.
Now we all know Yoshi and sheik can both get back to the stage well but both of there recoverys CAN be messed up occasionally.
For sheik she can get some good reads with her specials. Like bouncing fish, vanish or a charged up smash. She can even put a burst grenade high above the stage.
For Yoshi he can get that easy 1 frame punish off of her up B because hes floaty and has a sex kick that stage spikes. Also he can punish bouncing fish.
Also needles don't break double jump untill about 200+ so don't bring up needle gimping. Needle gimping of course IS possible if the yoshi goofs up.
Sheiks down throw up air.
Now in alot of cases this isnt a 50/50 against Yoshi. Without from the sheik Yoshi can jump out of down throw up air due to double jump lasting 300+% (stops about under 350) through the multi hits. But rage is a diffrent story.
If sheik where to down throw up air you at 100% and she was at 100% you could actually jump out of the multi hit.
Even at 150% and shes at 100% you could still jump out.
Now 150% is max rage right? Well if sheik was at 150% rage and yoshi was at 125% yoshi could still jump out.
Even if yoshi was at 150% and sheik was at 150% the best option is to jump because jumping will go right through that multi hits.
Sometimes sheik can get a gaureteed up air though not sure when.
So. 50/50 situation busted? The Yoshi player does need to mash jump really fast though because it doesnt buffer I think.
*Note tested with fresh up airs and in regular smash.
So IMO the MU is even or slightly in sheiks favor. I do think Yoshi is a good choice against sheik if you study the sheik MU. Also don't say im giving yoshi to much credit because im a yoshi player and its my job lol.