Meta Sheik's New Matchup Discussion Thread: Yoshi

[Joaco]

Soo Yoshi, this matchup can be very hard for us if we don't know how to play it. I played Yoshis that like to be aggressive and some defensive Yoshis. We prefer fighting aggressive ones, but beware of their playstyle, when we fight Yoshi we should be prepared for everything.
Yoshi's eggs are great for mantaining distance and applying pressure to us, projectile wars are won most of the time by Yoshi so don't count on needle camping the entire match. We should apply pressure to Yoshi and never lose momentum. When comboing beware of Yoshi's nair, it's like Luigi's, it will break a lot of our combos and reset things to the neutral. Yoshi can also combo out of it, and if we trade hits it will always be in favor of Yoshi, so we should be super careful.
For edgeguarding Yoshi I found nair to be awesome, it breaks Yoshi's eggs if thrown at point blank and if we can get rid of Yoshi's double jump, eggs are the only thing Yoshi can use to recover.
For the stage pick, I usually ban Lylat Cruise, because it's too good for Yoshi, avoid it at all costs.

Match for reference (Vinnie vs Raptor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O_BaPLCBUM
From Yoshi's perspective: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-sheik.374421/

 

[_Tree]

YOSHI MATCH-UP
This annoying dinosaur is probably one of the only members of the cast that gives Sheik significant trouble.


NEUTRAL/EGGS (rough)

Generally, Yoshi will dominate the air with eggs, so aerial approaches overall are not recommended. N-air does break eggs though, so if you space it well you can break a thrown egg with Sheik's extended foot and come down on him while he's still in recovery.
Approaching with grounded shield is a good idea. You'll absorb eggs and prompt Yoshi to use close-ranged tactics and options such as Jab or aerials, freeing up the air space that his eggs would've taken up before. You want to use F-air's disjoint here to space out of these baited options and apply pressure to him. I like to run up > Shield > Empty-hop away when fighting Yoshi in neutral, as it protects against most aggression and allows you to see what options they'll choose when pressured (due to the empty-hop making them think you'll come in with an aerial).

If the Yoshi you're fighting doesn't throw eggs very much, take advantage of that and toss needles. This'll prompt them to take a different retaliation approach and begin throwing eggs. This is where you take advantage of their relative unfamiliarity of a ranged approach and run up grab/attack them.

COMBOING

Comboing Yoshi still works, you just need to pepper Shield throughout your strings a bit more than other characters. That damn 3-frame N-air will break any string super hard. The magic number you want to remember here is 2. Two F-tilts, then go into shield. Two F-airs, then go into shield. Depending on the opponent you can get in more, but I feel only using two options is the safest, and is good for finding out what your opponent will throw out.

A basic combo will look like this: F-tilt > F-tilt > Shield > Regrab after shielding Yoshi N-air > F-throw > F-air string/Bouncing Fish

GENERAL

At high percents, play super defensively. If you misspace one aerial on his shield, he won't hesitate to Down-B OOS and get a free kill.
In line with this, Yoshi can confirm jab into stuff like U-smash. You want to space F-airs and N-airs to the max here. Once they hit you'll either be able to take advantage of their misplaced position or cofirm into something like Bouncing Fish.

Yoshi will often grab-release you into jab, which is commonly lead into an U-smash. Holding back and Shield is the go-to escape for this (whether or not you roll is up to you). I'm unsure if we can beat his jab with ours. Both jabs come out on frame 3, but we might be slower due to coming out of a grab release. Needs testing.

When you have Yoshi in the air, don't chase him. Yoshi's everywhere are just begging for characters to challenge them with an aerial just to pull off a down-b and kill you off the top. Bait the down-b. Jump up at him, but then pull away without throwing an aerial.
On the issue of approaching aerially...If you pull off a D-throw and try to pull off a follow-up such as U-air, don't go all in. Space it so that just the tip of Sheik's feet will hit Yoshi. If the combo turns out to not be true and he airdodges your U-air, Yoshi will just respond with an immediate U-air, turning the the tables of the whole combo.

Sheik can duck under F-tilt and eggs at certian distances...Not very useful, but if eggs prove to be a problem try crawling to get around them.

COMBO INFORMATION

F-throw > Bouncing Fish
-DI away/No DI: 0-25%
-DI up and in: None

D-tilt > U-air Kill combos (Projected DI) (projected DI = Percentage the character dies at, even if they DI)
- D-tilt > U-air: 108% (117%)
- Double jab > D-tilt > U-air: 105% (123%)
- D-tilt opponent hanging on ledge > U-air: 116% (125%)
- D-tilt > Vanish: 109%

Weak N-air > Bouncing Fish
- DI away starting percentage: 100%
- DI away ending percentage: 135%

F-tilt > F-tilt: 18% (Starting percent)

F-tilt > Shorthopped F-air: 33% (Starting percent)

F-tilt > U-smash: 45% - 60%

 

[Joaco]

Woah, amazing input! Sasuga Deku Tree!

 

[HoSmash4]

Yoshi down-b shield breaker only works if he jabs then down-b. So if he jabs, do not try to shield the down-b and roll out of it.
If Yoshi trys to come back from the ledge with a badly spaced aerial, we can jab 1,2 him to his death. But be wary of using jab in general as yoshi can nair through it. A lot of Yoshis like to use wavebounced/b-reversed neutral b after a fadeaway so be wary of your spacing. Powershielding eggs is very important in this matchup.

I personally ban Castle Siege and Lylat vs Yoshi. Lylat gives Yoshi a lot of different angles to egg camp with the tilting, and Yoshi has some jank on castle siege.

@ _Tree i just tried it now, our jab beats yoshi's jab on grab release but yoshi can nair after sheik's jab 1,2

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

Yoshi down-b shield breaker only works if he jabs then down-b. So if he jabs, do not try to shield the down-b and roll out of it.
If Yoshi trys to come back from the ledge with a badly spaced aerial, we can jab 1,2 him to his death. But be wary of using jab in general as yoshi can nair through it. A lot of Yoshis like to use wavebounced/b-reversed neutral b after a fadeaway so be wary of your spacing. Powershielding eggs is very important in this matchup.

I personally ban Castle Siege and Lylat vs Yoshi. Lylat gives Yoshi a lot of different angles to egg camp with the tilting, and Yoshi has some jank on castle siege.

@ _Tree i just tried it now, our jab beats yoshi's jab on grab release but yoshi can nair after sheik's jab 1,2

Yoshi can also Dair-Down B and shield break, just a heads up.

 

[Absol]

This match up is easy. One of my close friends mains this dino. I'll add my feedback later tonight

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I just want to note, that this MU is way different online then it is offline, I recommend playing a local Yoshi to fully understand this MU cause is a character that can be really obnoxious to Sheik online (wi-fi).

 

[YoHeKing]

Wow im surprised that one person hasn't put down stuff like "Sheiks frame data is better so its a -1 or -2. Or Sheik can needle camp a Yoshi so its -2" lol.

From experience though I find sheik much more fun to play against offline then online. Online MU against sheik just makes it worst for the style of play I use.

Awhile back I found some really cool options that are highly under rated. I call it double jump fast falling and what it does is it activates Yoshis hard armor from ground up till he touches the ground again. Basically what this allows is if a sheik was to fair you or any other aerial Yoshi could get a free up air or nair making it a trade in Yoshis favor.

But anyways I think this MU is all about trades. If Yoshi gets at least one trade even after sheik has hit him 3-5 times Yoshi makes it even or even better. The fact that Yoshis aerials do have 3x or 4x more strength and damage.

I could go all in this MU but Im kinda stuck with mobile right now.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi can also Dair-Down B and shield break, just a heads up.

Dair has a lot of ending lag, you have a lot of time to react before the Down B.

A pretty relevant information is that Sheik has a really solid kill setup against Yoshi which IMO is the biggest danger for us in the MU.

When Yoshi is at 90~110%, Sheik can kill Yoshi with the "almost true combo" Dthrow -> Uair. The only escape from the Uair is air dodging. However, if Yoshi airdodges he takes the risk of being killed by Up B instead, a 50-50 situation.

If Yoshi manages to survive with a % where he can now escape the Uair with DJ, then he has a minimal chance to get a lead against Sheik by avoiding getting killed at all costs and try to kill her with rage somehow.

The MU is pretty much it. Yoshi doesn't have the frame data to compete with Sheik, and gets a lot more damaged than her in the long run. His only chance to win is to escape that kill setup and then manage to kill her with rage with a dumb Nair or something.

+2 Sheik

 

[ArikadoSD]

Yoshi doesn't have the frame data to compete with Sheik

How? Yoshi's frame data is so ridiculous it might as well be as good as Sheik's. The mu isn't one-sided to the point where it's +2. Honestly, from my perspective this mu is the definition of even. We both have tools to zone one another out, can't gimp each other, and have good kill setups against each other. The only downside is that we pretty much lose every trade and can't afford extending our combos because of Yoshi's nair, while on the other hand Sheik's fair can potentially beat all of Yoshi's aerials.

Also, about the dthrow on the 90-110% mark, can't yoshi use the armour of double jump to escape uair? Vanish is too slow to catch the jump.

Also /no way/ uair will kill at 90-110% lol. so your best option is to always jump regardless, then it's never a 50/50

 

[Lukingordex]

How? Yoshi's frame data is so ridiculous it might as well be as good as Sheik's. The mu isn't one-sided to the point where it's +2. Honestly, from my perspective this mu is the definition of even. We both have tools to zone one another out, can't gimp each other, and have good kill setups against each other. The only downside is that we pretty much lose every trade and can't afford extending our combos because of Yoshi's nair, while on the other hand Sheik's fair can potentially beat all of Yoshi's aerials.

Also, about the dthrow on the 90-110% mark, can't yoshi use the armour of double jump to escape uair? Vanish is too slow to catch the jump.

Also /no way/ uair will kill at 90-110% lol. so your best option is to always jump regardless, then it's never a 50/50

1-) The argument that Yoshi has "ridiculous frame data" is false.
Take a look at this: http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/#post-20051592

I know ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player in the world and all but please ignore everything he says about Yoshi.

2-) Which tools exactly Yoshi has to zone Sheik out? Egg Throw actually has considerable ending lag and Sheik is fast enough to just run and punish Yoshi if he throws the egg at her. The only way egg throw can possible zone sheik is if Yoshi bait the approach by throwing the egg at himself making her get hit by it when she goes for the grab. But if she's prepared for it she can just wait the egg explode and then punish the ending lag of the move with a SH FF Fair -> Grab.

3-) Which kill setups yoshi has on Sheik? The only one I can think of is Dthrow -> Uair which is easily avoidable with DI.

4-) Uair does kill, because after the dthrow Yoshi gets in a considerably high height. As I said before his only escape from the Uair at this percentage is air dodging, but if Sheik reads it she will kill Yoshi with Up B. I've tested a lot the DJ armor and unfortunately for the dinosaur it doesn't come out kickly enough to escape the Uair until about 120%.

 

[ArikadoSD]

1-) The argument that Yoshi has "ridiculous frame data" is false.
Take a look at this: http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/#post-20051592

I know ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player in the world and all but please ignore everything he says about Yoshi.

2-) Which tools exactly Yoshi has to zone Sheik out? Egg Throw actually has considerable ending lag and Sheik is fast enough to just run and punish Yoshi if he throws the egg at her. The only way egg throw can possible zone sheik is if Yoshi bait the approach by throwing the egg at himself making her get hit by it when she goes for the grab. But if she's prepared for it she can just wait the egg explode and then punish the ending lag of the move with a SH FF Fair -> Grab.

3-) Which kill setups yoshi has on Sheik? The only one I can think of is Dthrow -> Uair which is easily avoidable with DI.

4-) Uair does kill, because after the dthrow Yoshi gets in a considerably high height. As I said before his only escape from the Uair at this percentage is air dodging, but if Sheik reads it she will kill Yoshi with Up B. I've tested a lot the DJ armor and unfortunately for the dinosaur it doesn't come out kickly enough to escape the Uair until about 120%.

I don't give a **** what zero says because a lot of the time it's blatantly false and people take him for granted too much cuz he's the best player. I hadn't even realized he said anything about Yoshi.

Yoshi can use aerial eggs and then land safely by mixing up nair, (reversed) neutral b, or fair. He can also weave in an out with fair and we can barely punish it thanks to Yoshi's ridiculous aerial mobility.

The kill setups that I've seen are egg > any aerial, jab > usmash/fsmash, and utilt > uair. probably missing a few but those are the ones I see a lot and the ones I die from.

You can test all you want but uair will not kill at 90%. Yoshi is too heavy and uair is too weak. The percents it kills at are percents where dthrow uair isn't true anymore, otherwise Sheik would be a lot more broken.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

All I remember ZeRo saying about Yoshi is he's good because "frame data" and "reasons" so w/e lol

Yoshi is heavy but he is also floaty, so he has the potential to die off the top earlier.

Curious about Down Throw > Up air because at high level play I constantly see people opt for airdodge despite jump being a clearly better option, so unless it's the only option they should always jump instead right? This leads me to believe it's a 50/50, but hey maybe every top player is an idiot. Do you have %s where Down Throw up air is a true combo, a 50/50 situation, and when it can be jumped out of? I'd be curious to know the numbers. (also if it's tested in training mode or vs mode)

 

[Lukingordex]

Yoshi can use aerial eggs and then land safely by mixing up nair, (reversed) neutral b, or fair. He can also weave in an out with fair and we can barely punish it thanks to Yoshi's ridiculous aerial mobility.

The kill setups that I've seen are egg > any aerial, jab > usmash/fsmash, and utilt > uair. probably missing a few but those are the ones I see a lot and the ones I die from.

You can test all you want but uair will not kill at 90%. Yoshi is too heavy and uair is too weak. The percents it kills at are percents where dthrow uair isn't true anymore, otherwise Sheik would be a lot more broken.

Yoshi can't wave people in and out with Fair that safely, the move has ending lag, unless it's online. If a Yoshi starts spaming the move that way, spotdodge/perfect shield it and then run below him (yoshi's aerial speed isn't kicker than Sheik's running speed) and punish him with an aerial.

As for landing, Yoshi's Nair is not really that good of a option because even though it comes out quickly, it takes a long time in the soft state with a pretty small hitbox that loses to Sheik aerials, which means if it gets baited Yoshi will get punished. Fair is also not a very good option for landing either for the same reason it isn't a good move to wave people in and out. Neutral B and egg throw doesn't cover below Yoshi which is his weak point when landing. His only options in this case are Dair, Down b and air dodge which are extremely punishable options. If Yoshi didn't had the best aerial speed in the game he would never land, literally.

As for the kill setups: Egg -> Uair is indeed a true kill combo, but it's extremely situational. Jab -> Smash Attack often is not a true combo, but people tend to get hit by it because it's pretty hard to predict. Utilt -> Uair combos at low percents, but if you DI into Yoshi it tends to not true combo anymore. However, I'm pretty sure the weak hit of utilt can lead to the Uair kill, but that's also situational.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

I don't give a **** what zero says because a lot of the time it's blatantly false and people take him for granted too much cuz he's the best player. I hadn't even realized he said anything about Yoshi.

Yoshi can use aerial eggs and then land safely by mixing up nair, (reversed) neutral b, or fair. He can also weave in an out with fair and we can barely punish it thanks to Yoshi's ridiculous aerial mobility.

The kill setups that I've seen are egg > any aerial, jab > usmash/fsmash, and utilt > uair. probably missing a few but those are the ones I see a lot and the ones I die from.

You can test all you want but uair will not kill at 90%. Yoshi is too heavy and uair is too weak. The percents it kills at are percents where dthrow uair isn't true anymore, otherwise Sheik would be a lot more broken.

Dood, I get what you're saying about ZeRo, I can't stand the guy myself, but try to keep calm D8

Yoshi is frustrating, bottom line. Absol should have some good info for us the next time he posts on this thread. I personally am afraid of Yoshi and think that he's got some redic kill power for his frame data.

 

[Absol]

Sorry for the delay, but alas i am here to put my input on this match up. my credibility comes from playing my friend Nade? a lot and he mains yoshi.

At low percents you can string yoshi by using falling fairs as he is put into a situation where if he jumps or airdodges, he will get hit, and if he nairs he wont hit us and land with lag.

ex: 0%

SH> falling fair > SH > falling fair (repeat as you can) then do SH > falling fair > bouncing fish

This is a clean way to rack damage on yoshi early. Moving on if you have checked out our thread about fthrow > bouncing fish you can see that this combo works on yoshi for awhile.

Next lets talk about neutral. Yoshi has a clean projectile, but one that doesnt work on sheik. Sheik has 3 postures of movement, walking, (tallest) running (the size of pikachu) and crawl (the smallest we can get. Our running animation lets up easily go under yoshis eggs without even having to perfect shield it. To punish yoshis cross up dash attack simply just turn around and attack/grab as he still has lag. We can tipper usmash yoshi for trying to use fair against us because the top half of our body is intangible during so, and also because his nose gets huge during the animation. Even if we trade we can still kill him earlier than expected. Lets also realize if we footstool yoshi off stage during his second jump he's as good as dead, and sheik with as much mobility as she has is able to take advantage of this fully. The only thing yoshi has in this mu is super armor, and even then if i was told correctly- he loses more of his super armor depending on the higher percent he has. (correct me if im wrong)

Stale ftilt like 2 or 3 times and go for ftilt > uair (fresh) and you'll be killing the dino sooner than you'll ever expect. Remember that throws arent the only way to lead into our uair, both ftilt and tipper dtilt lead to this. Also remember to only use your uair to kill because when its fresh + a bit of rage, you basically have one shotgun shell at your disposal as a legitimate kill option. Remember your numbers, weights, and decay as a sheik should.

only aggressive sheiks will lose this match up. sheiks that over extend their fair and get punished by the pull back of yoshis fsmash. Those who dont respect his down b and get too greedy, and those dont know what a 3 frame nair means, and how to work around it.

60:40 Sheik

You can test all you want but uair will not kill at 90%.

actually....give me 80% rage, a properly decayed ftilt, and a fresh uair. Uair rage growth rate is insane

 

[Phazon117]

Eyyy I'm the guy Absol's talking about. Sorry I won't have many hard numbers, more anecdotal evidence. Most of my Sheik matchup experience comes from him, and what I tend to notice is that patient Sheiks that are willing to space out or go in for safe attacks on Yoshi at earlier percents usually put Yoshi at an extreme disadvantage. It's difficult for Yoshi to approach a Sheik that's jumping around or even just dashing to psych Yoshi out, though that could be a me thing. Dunno.

But Yoshi's neutral jabs and nairs are mandatory, and nailing perfect timing on his down-b often nets me kills. Also the b-reversals and pivots can throw people off, but the worst case scenario is getting stuck in an egg, which isn't the end of the world.

Also Absol footstools me out of my second jump a lot, enough where I have to break my off-stage habits. If you see a pattern of Yoshi using the second jump off-stage, remind him why that's bad, Super Mario World style. I'll try digging through some replays on my system and go from there (even though most of them are gone ;-.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Yoshi's DJ has heavy armor which means that if it receives enough knockback it will be cancelled.

 

[Phazon117]

A common tactic I've used is when I'm falling, use a short-ranged egg to bait out a shield, then I'll neutral-b. Sometimes I'll change it up with a nair, but that's if they perfect block the egg and I call them on letting go of shield.

 

[New_Dumal]

My experiences with Yoshi are, considering you're not playing with a ***** spacing:

-> Agressive Yoshi's suffer too much in this MU (I would say is 70:30)
They can't do almost nothing too agressive if you space yourself right, putting that good shield and perfect shield (not hard with the eggs) to work.Needles punish the agressive Yoshi very well, and sometimes force them to use double jump in situations where you can found a Bouncing Fish. Remember that if you force a Yoshi do DJ and then hit them, you MUST TAKE THE STOCK.
About the grab situation, I recommend two options: Use DThrow in medium percents linking the UAir.
This build fear enough to a lot of Yoshi's air dodge with 90~100%'s and give you that awesome Vanish Kill.
If the player looks smart enough to not be that dumb, adapt to the next stocks and try not to stale your Uair.
People says Sheik don't let Yoshi to 50/50, but the truth is that everycombo you put him in the situation where you can extend the combo if he don't Nair, or shield+grab and extend the combo anyway. So, more 50/50's than just the throw situation.
A lot of Yoshi players trust him too much, try to download their agressive playstyle.

-> Defensive Yoshi's can't make it even anyway (60:40).
If the Yoshi player is consistent and defensive, truly is not a easy MU to Sheik.
It's not a hard one either. I will say what I think is important:
Try to punish every move that exclude something from his recovery.
If you can read jumps and eggs (a pacient Yoshi will never spam them), you can make a kill much earlier than expected.
Sheik's Dash attack is too great in this MU.Dash attack can look like a empty punish, but use it everytime you have a chance.
The most I play against Yoshi, more I see myself in situations only dash attack can punish him, and I used to lose this damage because I wanted something bigger.
Defensive yoshi's will know your kill options and be very cautious about it.
The best you will probably do is play solid and build much more damage, killing him without setups.
He will have ZERO options to kill you either. Bait them enough to they use a move that gives you the punish you need.
This is a tiresome match, but you have all the options to keep your advantage in framedata, RUN SPEED, and range.

<>General:
Never try risky options against his Fair.
Mixup your defensive options, but always jump of situations where the Uair can kill you.
You can use Bouncing Fish to escape from him if you feels in a bad situation.
Dair can punish Yoshi if he tries to link a aerial after the egg, and sometimes link with USmash.
Never uses the Dair if he is in the ground, you will die or be hard punished.
His throws are not a problem (at least if you know how to DI), so abuse shield and shield+grab, and regular get up.

 

[Absol]

Like most bad mu against sheik, the goal of yoshi will be trying to trade with her since she is always in the negative when it comes to trading

 

[YoHeKing]

Posted to early. Sorry...

 

[Danimal197]

Dair has a lot of ending lag, you have a lot of time to react before the Down B.

A pretty relevant information is that Sheik has a really solid kill setup against Yoshi which IMO is the biggest danger for us in the MU.

When Yoshi is at 90~110%, Sheik can kill Yoshi with the "almost true combo" Dthrow -> Uair. The only escape from the Uair is air dodging. However, if Yoshi airdodges he takes the risk of being killed by Up B instead, a 50-50 situation.

If Yoshi manages to survive with a % where he can now escape the Uair with DJ, then he has a minimal chance to get a lead against Sheik by avoiding getting killed at all costs and try to kill her with rage somehow.

The MU is pretty much it. Yoshi doesn't have the frame data to compete with Sheik, and gets a lot more damaged than her in the long run. His only chance to win is to escape that kill setup and then manage to kill her with rage with a dumb Nair or something.

+2 Sheik

You do realize you can autocancel dair from the ledge, and then it straight up combos into down b? You can autocancel yoshi's fair relatively easily too. So, all of this, "it has so much lag" stuff doesn't apply to a really good yoshi.


Sheik still wins the MU imo, but anyway, here is some high level aggressive sheik vs yoshi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquSrZqBYSI

 

[Lukingordex]

You do realize you can autocancel dair from the ledge, and then it straight up combos into down b? You can autocancel yoshi's fair relatively easily too. So, all of this, "it has so much lag" stuff doesn't apply to a really good yoshi.


Sheik still wins the MU imo, but anyway, here is some high level aggressive sheik vs yoshi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquSrZqBYSI

That's actually a pretty good video. However, not wanting to retire the credit from the Sheik player, but the Yoshi player seemed to be better than him when it came to option choices. He was able to recognize a lot of patterns from the sheik player, and a big example of this are how he got most of his kills.

Also this video showed most of what I said, especially Yoshi struggling to get in because of Fair (frame data) and that 50-50 situation with dthrow -> Uair/vanish



And idk why you decided to indirectly claim i'm some random scrubby yoshi that came here just to say nonsense about the MU and then post a video that resumes most of what I said, but ok

 

[New_Dumal]

What if we don't treat the people who come to help us like they're trash ?
Listening what Yoshi players have to say seems nice to me.
....just saying.

 

[YoHeKing]

Don't make this MU only based off of frame data... ridiculous when people do that because sheik would easily have a +2-5 against everyone if it was that way. You have to go deeper in the MU please...

Alright so to clear up the down throw up air and the "there no kill setups for yoshi in this MU".

First of all you can DI out of down throw up air really easily and you can jump out of it. But if sheik does not DI out it will be a true kill setup.

Now here is a list of kill setups Yoshi can do on sheik.

Easy kill setups(The ones you can pull off more often):

• Jab
• Up Tilt
• Egg Throw
• Forward Air Spike (No Tech)
• Up Throw Under Top Platform of BF (easy tech chase)

Complex Kill Setups(probably won't do very often)

• Full hop up air from ground into up air(yes that works)
• Soft Spot Nair (Because shielding is a thing)
• Egg Lay(This one involves a read but its not impossible)
• Down air off platform into jab lock

COMBOING

Comboing Yoshi still works, you just need to pepper Shield throughout your strings a bit more than other characters. That damn 3-frame N-air will break any string super hard. The magic number you want to remember here is 2. Two F-tilts, then go into shield. Two F-airs, then go into shield. Depending on the opponent you can get in more, but I feel only using two options is the safest, and is good for finding out what your opponent will throw out.

A basic combo will look like this: F-tilt > F-tilt > Shield > Regrab after shielding Yoshi N-air > F-throw > F-air string/Bouncing Fish

Yoshis double jump and armor comes out frame 1. Sheiks fair doesnt break Yoshis double jump sweetspoted untill like 95% no rage or freshnessbonus. I have a thread about it. Also if sheik fairs Yoshi while in double jump armor he can actually still get the trade which is pretty cool.



Now moving on into the "Sheik can punish Yoshis end lag from Egg Toss". Now while this is true... kinda...

Sheik cannot run up and punish a Yoshi who uses eggs at a distance. And saying stuff like Sheik can punish his egg toss with needles is kinda off too. Sheik has to dodge, shield or dash into b reversal for the fastest option and by that time Yoshi will be out of lag. And yes needles do cancel out eggs but eggs go right over them.

-> Agressive Yoshi's suffer too much in this MU (I would say is 70:30)
up.

Going to have to disagree.
If Yoshi is not trading then hes not winning. Eggs IMO don't even really help much in alot of MUs so I don't use them as much. They do pressure though.

You do realize you can autocancel dair from the ledge, and then it straight up combos into down b? You can autocancel yoshi's fair relatively easily too. So, all of this, "it has so much lag" stuff doesn't apply to a really good yoshi.


Sheik still wins the MU imo, but anyway, here is some high level aggressive sheik vs yoshi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquSrZqBYSI

Such an uneven MU. 3-2 last hit situation... but yeah. That Yoshi wasn't really full aggresive but campy Yoshis don't do that good against sheik from what I see. He was just trying to get in which is a must for Yoshi.

COMBO INFORMATION

F-throw > Bouncing Fish
-DI away/No DI: 0-25%
-DI up and in: None

D-tilt > U-air Kill combos (Projected DI) (projected DI = Percentage the character dies at, even if they DI)
- D-tilt > U-air: 108% (117%)
- Double jab > D-tilt > U-air: 105% (123%)
- D-tilt opponent hanging on ledge > U-air: 116% (125%)
- D-tilt > Vanish: 109%

Weak N-air > Bouncing Fish
- DI away starting percentage: 100%
- DI away ending percentage: 135%

F-tilt > F-tilt: 18% (Starting percent)

F-tilt > Shorthopped F-air: 33% (Starting percent)

F-tilt > U-smash: 45% - 60%

You sure you tested the right DI for Yoshi? In alot of cases against sheik if Yoshi DIs only up he can actually avoid combos that would be true if he DI'd up and away. Funny thing is downwards DI can actually break some of sheiks combos on Yoshi too like nair combos.



Going to go over trading real quick.

Now we all know Yoshis aerials do 3x-5x more damage and have a much longer hitbox. And all his other moves still do more.
So if Yoshi were to get 1 hit every time sheik got 5 hits Yoshi could possibly still be winning. Another thing is that sheik is kinda FORCED to sheild in this MU because she cannot afford the trade therefor egglay should be landed much more often then usually. Another cool thing is if you dash then pivot behind the egg and jump cancel up smash sheik cannot get you right there and if she tries you get a follow up.


Now Yoshis frame data VS sheik.

Yoshi DOES have the frame data to fight sheik. Alot of Yoshis tilts, smashes, specials, and some of his aerials come out the same speed as sheiks stuff. His frame data is good for how much damage he does. Though not all his moves have as fast as sheiks or the same endlag but endlag really isnt that bad.


In terms of killing for both characters.

Now Yoshi is heavy, floaty, can break combos pretty easily and can live up to 200%.
So Sheik cannot rack up alot of damage on him, kill him or do easy combos.

Sheik is light, a fast faller, cannot break most of Yoshis combos and dies about 80-120. Now Yoshi does have trouble starting up his kill setups but he kills sheik easy with an aerial, read, or punish. Rage just makes things better for him and worse for sheik.


Recovery.

Now we all know Yoshi and sheik can both get back to the stage well but both of there recoverys CAN be messed up occasionally.

For sheik she can get some good reads with her specials. Like bouncing fish, vanish or a charged up smash. She can even put a burst grenade high above the stage.

For Yoshi he can get that easy 1 frame punish off of her up B because hes floaty and has a sex kick that stage spikes. Also he can punish bouncing fish.
Also needles don't break double jump untill about 200+ so don't bring up needle gimping. Needle gimping of course IS possible if the yoshi goofs up.



Sheiks down throw up air.

Now in alot of cases this isnt a 50/50 against Yoshi. Without from the sheik Yoshi can jump out of down throw up air due to double jump lasting 300+% (stops about under 350) through the multi hits. But rage is a diffrent story.
If sheik where to down throw up air you at 100% and she was at 100% you could actually jump out of the multi hit.
Even at 150% and shes at 100% you could still jump out.
Now 150% is max rage right? Well if sheik was at 150% rage and yoshi was at 125% yoshi could still jump out.
Even if yoshi was at 150% and sheik was at 150% the best option is to jump because jumping will go right through that multi hits.
Sometimes sheik can get a gaureteed up air though not sure when.

So. 50/50 situation busted? The Yoshi player does need to mash jump really fast though because it doesnt buffer I think.

*Note tested with fresh up airs and in regular smash.

So IMO the MU is even or slightly in sheiks favor. I do think Yoshi is a good choice against sheik if you study the sheik MU. Also don't say im giving yoshi to much credit because im a yoshi player and its my job lol.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Jump buffers out of hitstun. Has there been times where you couldn't jump out?

 

[YoHeKing]

It seems to always get me online even when it shouldnt. Its never happened to me offline though.

 

[iceman9746]

1-) The argument that Yoshi has "ridiculous frame data" is false.
Take a look at this: http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/#post-20051592

I know ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player in the world and all but please ignore everything he says about Yoshi.

2-) Which tools exactly Yoshi has to zone Sheik out? Egg Throw actually has considerable ending lag and Sheik is fast enough to just run and punish Yoshi if he throws the egg at her. The only way egg throw can possible zone sheik is if Yoshi bait the approach by throwing the egg at himself making her get hit by it when she goes for the grab. But if she's prepared for it she can just wait the egg explode and then punish the ending lag of the move with a SH FF Fair -> Grab.

3-) Which kill setups yoshi has on Sheik? The only one I can think of is Dthrow -> Uair which is easily avoidable with DI.

4-) Uair does kill, because after the dthrow Yoshi gets in a considerably high height. As I said before his only escape from the Uair at this percentage is air dodging, but if Sheik reads it she will kill Yoshi with Up B. I've tested a lot the DJ armor and unfortunately for the dinosaur it doesn't come out kickly enough to escape the Uair until about 120%.

Best air mobility in the game with a 3 frame hair that auto cancels in to a 3 frame jab sounds good to me

 

[YoHeKing]

Yoshis frame data is good guys. Its just he has slow and fast moves that are perfectly fine anyways.

Like Yoshi down air is like the 2nd slowest aerial in the game but its one of the best because it does 33% lol. Yoshis up air has ridiculous frame data for a kill move and can kill setup sheik at 80% from a full hop up air into up air without any rage. His back is is ridiculously good for catching air dodges and KO'n pretty fast. His forward air can do 14 or 15% and for the frame data it has its pretty good. Down B kills ridiculously early and comes out frame 7(ive seen frame 4 on another place). His smash attacks are pretty good also.

Now Yoshis frame data compared to his weight and damage output is ridiculous but its not as good as sheiks. Yoshis frame data IS GOOD though.

 

[YoHeKing]

Does anyone know if its possible to actually react to sheiks 50/50 chance on other characters?
Like for example if you see sheik use her double jump at a certain point you could air dodge and if you see sheik is doing a weird flip(up b) you could jump? Ive noticed in the ESAM vs ZeRo at smash con Esam would react to the 50/50 situation as it seemed but zero baited that out with a full hop fall into double jump up air to fake out esams air dodge. Or what about stuff like DI'n up and toward sheik so you can air dodge left or right to avoid the 50/50 situation and make it more like a 25/75 situation.

I may have found a death combo on sheik from 50% on FD(it seems to work on alot of characters). It COULD use more testing but its pretty simple and I noticed you cant DI out of it at a very specific percent. Basically what it is is the Yoshi full hop uairs the sheik from the ground, DJs uair again (DI left right can be followed) then up air again? Its a true combo but I haven't tested it with fresh up airs and stalled up airs yet.

Same method works at around 80% too(this one I know for a fact is true) and it cant be DI'd out of because DI reactions are easy on this one. Its just full hop up air on a grounded sheik into DJ up air.

Also I found out not too long ago that Yoshi could air release dash attack true combo sheik at any percent. The Yoshi need to knowthe timing perfectly(not frame perfect but close) and dash attack right when he has the chance to. Some people have said sheik could jump out but I never figured out how. Ive had people mash jump and backward but they still get hit. More testing could be needed on this one.

 

[Jaxas]

Does anyone know if its possible to actually react to sheiks 50/50 chance on other characters?

Especially with Yoshi, but even with other characters, just jump every time. Basically any time the Uair would be guaranteed (or only avoided by AD) it won't kill, and you can super armor through the Uair once it would start to.

Also I found out not too long ago that Yoshi could air release dash attack true combo sheik at any percent. The Yoshi need to knowthe timing perfectly(not frame perfect but close) and dash attack right when he has the chance to. Some people have said sheik could jump out but I never figured out how. Ive had people mash jump and backward but they still get hit. More testing could be needed on this one.

Grab release stuff was tested with every character a while back, and the only thing that was discovered with anyone was Grab Release -> Crescent Slash.
Yeah, here's the thread - I doubt Air Release to DA is true, but I don't play Yoshi so maybe it was just missed.

 

[YoHeKing]

It was missed. Yoshis air release combos are situational, frame traps or actuall true combos. In fact his air release combos other characters in certain situations(slopes like delpino stages transitions, air release fox right to the edge of the stage for frame trap, very percise location of halberd where a certain character lands on the slope, and even town and city moving platforms) and against greninja at frame perfect level (he cant ss cancel air release and may need more testing). Some characters are forced to jump but certain fast fallers can shield no matter like fox.

The thread was last edited december 9th probably only for the updates for the characters who where tested back in 3DS. So it could be very possible this is a new thing?

Also note Yoshis perfect frame pivot into forward smash is actually a very close true combo on sheik but sadly she can perfect shield it or jump out of it probably only by 5-10 frames. Thought that was pretty cool for mixups though its probably not that safe.

I tested it against people offline in slow mode and normal mode and sheik couldn't get out. So far shes the only one like that in normal situations from what I tested.

 

[Danimal197]

I have some good footage of this matchup being uploaded soon that I wan't y'all to review.

 

[Danimal197]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJFTYKc5gXQ - A recent set of me vs Texas' best
https://youtu.be/HYR7HfSjzJ8?t=4m43s -A funny highlight from one of our other games, custom combossss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaTBaYaoPI4 a montage of one of yoshi's more absurd options.

 

[RizMF]

IMO sheik vs yoshi is +2 in sheik's favor. Yoshi definitely can't play defensively vs sheik because sheik would easily take control of the stage with proper needles while eggs are too slow to really threaten sheik in most situations. If yoshi gets a habit of trying to stop sheik's approach with falling nair or dair sheik can easily hit yoshi with upsmash. Going back to needles taking the stage, the only time that isn't true is on stages like battlefield in which case the platforms intercept eggs that aren't thrown at very obvious specific angles. Yoshi needs to have very precise agression by taking advantage of b reversed and wave bounced neutral B. Yoshi has to constantly outplay sheik in the neutral and good use and mixups with egg lay are really the only ways to do that.

Some sets vs raptor:
https://youtu.be/KYn2f3bU1GE
https://youtu.be/i5k_zY_UPjY
https://youtu.be/VMfovrs2zLg

Some sets vs rj:
https://youtu.be/YEPao-xIPNQ
https://youtu.be/k2DWFdPZY-s
https://youtu.be/zBGJQ_7jFYk

Edit: forgot to mention that this mu is all about stage control. When you take the stage from yoshi you get free pressure and essentially free hits, while if you are in a bad position you can take loads of damage or even die. Good movement separates the sheiks that will be in control more often than not in this matchup from the sheiks that feel overwhelmed by yoshi