Sheik's KO Moves... MATHEMATICALLY CALCULATED. : P

[Zankoku]

So I was bored and decided to check on the knockback power on every single one of Sheik's attacks (except for ledge attacks) to figure out which would be the best ones to KO with, assuming no DI. Here's what I came up with:

1. Usmash Tipper: ~111% (straight upward)
2. Vanish: ~132% (60 degrees from horizontal)
3. Usmash Side: ~139% (45 degrees sideways)
4. Nair (Strong Hit): ~162% (30-40 degrees from horizontal)
5. Fsmash (Second Hit): ~169% (45 degrees from horizontal)
6. Dsmash: ~171% (40 degrees from horizontal)
7. Uair (Strong Hit): ~176% (70 degrees from horizontal)
8. Bair (Strong Hit): ~190% (40 degrees from horizontal)
9. Utilt: ~198% (70 degrees from horizontal)
10. Dash: ~211% (60 degrees from horizontal)
11. Fair: ~212% (20 degrees from horizontal)
12. Dair: ~227% (80 degrees from horizontal)
13. Dtilt: ~269% (80 degrees from horizontal)

The rest of them won't KO. Keep in mind these numbers are calculated by a math formula that both assumes no DI and that KOing over the top is as easy as KOing off the side, along with KOing off the side from the middle of the stage. I've KO'd people with Fair as low as 150%, but people've lived from my Bair at over 190%. It's all situational.

Oh, and everything's calculated based on Sheik wrecking Mario.

So, important things I noted:

• That one guide that ranked it Usmash Vanish Fsmash for some reason feels like it didn't factor in aerials nor the fact that Fsmash has two separate hits which may affect the KO %.
• wtf nair? It's the weakest aerial in terms of knockback initially, but apparently it has the largest knockback growth of all the aerials.
• Dsmash has multiple hits which I didn't bother trying to calculate.
• Utilt hits twice but I've rarely seen only the first hit connect with the second hit missing.
• You should seriously ignore everything past dash attack. If you've reached that high of a %, dash is probably your safest option to KO, anyway.

 

[Pokec]

threads like these kinda make me embarassed to be a smash fan... >.>

but super useful.

 

[HiddenBowser]

haha, punting the friend no longer kills

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

nice list

but you said "calculated". how did you calculate? or was it just a joke?

 

[Zankoku]

I hit Mario with each attack at 0% and 300%, then based on that figured out how much each attack's knockback increased, estimated how strong the knockback would have to be to KO, and made a formula to find what % would be needed to get that much knockback.

 

[Justice7541]

Nice. Regardless, you should probably subdivide the moves by direction of KO. For example, Sheik has a LOT more success KOing people off the side/bottom than the top, since she can just launch them off the side and follow them down for an FTilt (which kind of sends them flying to the side in a downward arc now, probably due to the reduced knockback) for the finish.

In that regard, USmash-Side is probably more useful as a KO move than USmash-Tip.

 

[Zankoku]

Nice. Regardless, you should probably subdivide the moves by direction of KO. For example, Sheik has a LOT more success KOing people off the side/bottom than the top, since she can just launch them off the side and follow them down for an FTilt (which kind of sends them flying to the side in a downward arc now, probably due to the reduced knockback) for the finish.

In that regard, USmash-Side is probably more useful as a KO move than USmash-Tip.

Are you sure about this? The only thing I see sliding fair accomplishing is stealing someone's double jump, which would be difficult to do unless they did it REALLY late, or something. I mean, I've KO'd people over the top quite a bit lately, since edgeguarding has become far less fatal in Brawl due to floatier gravity and stronger DI.

Anyway, I'll check on the stuff later tonight.

 

[Justice7541]

I believe Sheik's FAir still retains its old directional knockback, only with less actual knocking back. Since they start dropping immediately after they get hit, and there's a fairly large hitstun window (which is why you can juggle with FAir pretty easily), I find they typically end up falling an equivalent vertical as horizontal distance.

I could be wrong about this, but I find it helps at least somewhat as a sort of pseudo-Meteor near the bottom, since at the very least most characters have trouble recovering the added distance with just their third jumps.

 

[DoH]

ledge drop bairs kill alot lower

 

[Zankoku]

I believe Sheik's FAir still retains its old directional knockback, only with less actual knocking back. Since they start dropping immediately after they get hit, and there's a fairly large hitstun window (which is why you can juggle with FAir pretty easily), I find they typically end up falling an equivalent vertical as horizontal distance.

I could be wrong about this, but I find it helps at least somewhat as a sort of pseudo-Meteor near the bottom, since at the very least most characters have trouble recovering the added distance with just their third jumps.

It hits at about 20 degrees upward. Not enough to boost them at lower %, but still enough to let them recover at higher %. Your only chance of gimping them with fair is a hit away from the stage at like... 30% or something, when they've already used their double jump and are below the stage.

 

[Justice7541]

It hits at about 20 degrees upward. Not enough to boost them at lower %, but still enough to let them recover at higher %. Your only chance of gimping them with fair is a hit away from the stage at like... 30% or something, when they've already used their double jump and are below the stage.

Ah, that's a shame. I need to practice with Sheik more, I guess. I've only been able to play over Wi-Fi recently.

 

[Drephen]

hmmmm those numbers just dont seem right to me

also can you tell us what stage this is on?
cause blast lines change from stage to stage making some moves seem more powerful then others.

i swear the back air is wayyyy stronger then the up air and nair

 

[Zankoku]

I'm using Mario, FD, middle of stage. Obviously uair gets an advantage because it's sending upward, when bair has to send from the middle of the stage out.

Mostly I just figured out how much knockback each attack had at 0% and 300%, and figured out how much knockback they gained per %. : P

I'm going to go back over all of these attacks, though, because I think I might've screwed something up for how much knockback is needed to KO.

 

[Wildfire393]

Math isn't really the way to go about this.

The way I've seen is try to narrow the % range until you have a percentage at which the opponent is killed, and if you reduce it by 1% it no longer kills (note that "kills" here means that they have to actually leave the blast lines, it doesn't count if Mario just dies to his gimpy recovery).

 

[Wildfire393]

Don't mean to double post, but here are my findings using this method mentioned above

Here's some of my findings so far using this method. Percentages are before the damage of the attack, and with the strongest possible hit of that attack:

Aerials-
Fair: 189%
Bair: 154%
Uair: 157% (off top)
Nair: 152%
Dair: 211% (off top)

Smashes (Uncharged):
Forward: 151%
Up (tipper hit only): 89% (WOW! Off top)
Up (Side hit only): 149% (Top corner)
Down: 160%

Tilts:
Forward: 297% (Off top)
Up (Both hits hitting): 197% (off top)
Down: 246% (off top)
Jab(s): Not even at 999%
Dash Attack: 208%

Specials:
Needles: Not even at 999% (but funny to watch)
Whip: 560%
Transform: No knockback
Teleport: 133% (Off top)

So this means her best kills are:

1. Up Smash Tipper 89%
2. Teleport 133%
3. Up Smash Side hit 149%
4. Forward Smash 151%
5. Neutral Aerial 152%
6. Back Aerial 154%
7. Up Aerial 157%
8. Down Smash 160%
9. Forward Aerial 189%
10. Uptilt 197%
11. Dash Attack 208%

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

so...
disregarding the percantages we can say

usmash> UpB> Fsmash> aerials> Downsmash

seeing as how you can use the attacks i would say

Usmash> UpB> Bair>Uair, Downsmash, Nair, Fsmash

 

[EToaster]

I think Sheik's best KO move is her down-b. >.>

 

[FrozenFire13]

I think Sheik's best KO move is her down-b. >.>

Insta-flame. But funny in the sense that someone actually said it.

 

[hoopspr226]

rofl at fair being one of her worst KO moves now

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

I think Sheik's best KO move is her down-b. >.>

i guess you could call that revenge for all the years of discrimination against zelda players in melee XD

 

[Wildfire393]

Some notes about Sheik's kill moves:

Up Smash: It is difficult to get the tipper. If you simply walk next to someone and upsmash, you will hit with the side, no matter how close you get. If you perform a running Up Smash, it is possible to hit with the tipper, but you will ALSO hit with the sides. This is nice because it does about 30% damage, but it means you get the side's knockback, which won't kill until around 150%. The side hit still has good knockback, but it sends them straight at the top corner of the map, making it an awful KO move unless they botch their DI (it's basically auto-DI'ed).

Forward Smash: Except against the heavier opponents, at killing percentages, the first hit will knock them back just enough to not get hit by the killing second hit. You have to hit with JUST the second to get a clean kill.

Nair/Bair: You have to hit with the initial extension, or these get a TON weaker. They also launch slightly upwards. These are probably also your bread and butter combo attacks, so diminishing returns will bite you in the ***.

Fair: Though it doesn't kill FROM THE MIDDLE OF FD, this isn't an awful move to edgeguard with. Its knockback may be slightly low, but it's still in the direction the melee knockback was (below the horizontal). It is also a lot quicker to finish than the Nair/Bair, allowing you to get 2-3 of them in one edgeguard attempt. It also appears to hit at maximum power for its entire duration, which is slighty longer than the "sweetspot" window on the Nair/Bair.

Uair: This is probably actually Sheik's most reliable kill move (except against heavier characters, where the slap might be the way to go). It doesn't matter where they are horizontally when you hit them with it, as long as you hit right at the begining of the attack with your legs (similar to Nair/Bair). The best part is, if you whiff the sweetspot, it sets them up to get hit by it again. This gives diminishing returns, of course, but you can probably still pull off a kill at the right percentages.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik's fair is an amazing move. It has hilariously low knockback, making it possible to link one fair into another on heavier characters. It has decent range and almost no landing lag, letting you do SHFF fair > jab to interrupt shield responses, and giving you zoning opportunities.

If you want to actually KO with an aerial, use nair, bair, or uair. But at lower %'s, the speed fair comes out and ends is really nice to work with.