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Sheik's Dash Dance

Eonn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
131
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
SirEon
So it's come to my attention that I rarely use Sheik's dash dance and many played tell me I need to start incorporating it. What situations is her DD good in? I've tried playing an uncommitted style similar to PPMD's Marth by mixing in wavedashes but I'm constantly punished for the commitment.

I've watched Plup recently in BtS and some past sets vs spacies and I don't really see him dash dance either. He just either goes in or WDs back, sometimes he will dash back if he's in a walking state but I never see much dance dashing.

What am I missing here? Should I not be trying to use her DD to bait stuff out like Falcon/Marth/Fox? When should I be using it?

I apologize for the vagueness of the question.
 

necroTaxonomist

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
127
Location
Georgia
Personally, I'm sort of a reverse Ken (I can wavedash but I suck at dash dancing), so I don't really do it to much. Shrek's wavedash is short and fast enough that it's not too committal and makes your movement sufficiently unpredictable.

I usually only dash dance if I would be standing still otherwise. Surprisingly enough, if you just run back and forth a lot you are ten times harder to read.
 

Gnarsty

Wat.
Joined
Aug 2, 2015
Messages
35
Location
Wisconsin
To use sheiks dash dance effectively you need to wait until your opponent approaches you and then dash dance away into a boost grab to avoid JC grabs and other grounded approaches. It's pretty effective. Especially against Marth, Fox, and even other Sheiks.

When you dd back and your opponent takes to the air (a good example is fox's SHFFL'd nair) you can f-tilt into fair, d-smash, or dash attack depending on the matchup.

Hope this helps! Her dd is actually really strong, it's just super situational. If you have any questions or contributions let me know, I love discussing the neutral game. =D
 
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Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
This is partially in response to the quote below as well as Eonn's question:
I usually only dash dance if I would be standing still otherwise. Surprisingly enough, if you just run back and forth a lot you are ten times harder to read.
Dash-dancing doesn't necessarily make you harder to read or your intentions ambiguous. If you don't mix up your options out of dash-dance then it ends up just being "moving around"; the opponent doesn't really have to read you since it's clear that you're just going to keep dash-dancing, or always do the same action out of the dash-dance in a given situation. Dash-dancing is made safe and threatening by the potential for you to use the various options you have access to (dash attack, move forwards to take their space, boost grab, dash back pivot grab, etc.) and the ambiguity of which/when/where; the dashing itself isn't what's threatening. If you don't mix up your options from your dash-dance then you don't protect yourself through its ambiguity, and the opponent can feel confident enough to just take all of your stage or hit you.

If the opponent cannot react to an option, then the potential of that option is just as threatening as the option itself, because they have to respond to it the same way (pre-emptively); this allows you to manipulate the opponent's actions through your dash-dance by using it to apply the threat of these unreactable options. Every time you move into range for an action, you apply the pressure of that action and force a response out of the opponent. This is part of what allows you to bait the opponent into attacking you when you dash towards them (which you can avoid by dashing away); not only are they wanting to take an opportunity to hit you (moving into their range enables them to), but they're threatened by the potential of you hitting them when you enter your attack's effective range and want to stop you before you can do so.

Every action you do should have a purpose; moving isn't inherently good and lack of movement isn't inherently bad. The principle of establishing threat through ambiguous option choice applies when you're standing still or walking like it does during dash-dancing. One of the important differences between standing/walking and dashing is that during a stand/walk you have immediate access to all of your standing options at all times, whereas while dashing you restrict some of your options (no grounded attacks apart from dash attack and grab, no way to stop moving immediately apart from shield-stopping), but because you're already moving you can potentially cover/move through more space in a given amount of time compared to what you can from a stand/walk, and you can change direction more quickly/frequently (both of which make your position more ambiguous). Wavedashing allows you to move along the ground and have access to your standing options at the same time, but you don't get them immediately like you do during a walk (you have the duration of the jumpsquat + 10 frames of LandFallSpecial before you can act).

Sheik will be using a lot more walking and wavedashing over dash-dancing compared to many other characters because of how reliant she is on her tilts (meaning she needs to keep access to them often) and how short her dash is. A dash has the important benefit over a wavedash in that while it's approximately the same length (in Sheik's case), it allows you to grab nearly instantly after you initiate it. A dash also starts moving sooner, so is more applicable in situations were you have to narrowly avoid something (it allows you to commit to moving away later, and therefore increases your effective reaction time).

Sheik has extremely good ground moves (and good moves in general), which means that just her being near you with access to these moves is very threatening. One of the important uses for dash-dance or wavedash back is catching out the opponent trying to punish you for using your moves (or preemptively stop you from using them). For example: one of the ways for the opponent to beat you walking forwards and up tilting (or forward tilting, or down smashing, etc.) is to hit you; moving backwards out of range of their attack instead of attacking yourself allows you to punish them for that (with a dash-dance grab, for example). Moving like this is also relatively safe and non-committal; even if the opponent doesn't take the bait and attack, all you've done is move backwards a little bit, which leaves you in a position to continue applying pressure. So long as the threat of your moves is present, then your dash or wavedash back is potentially covered by those moves, and therefore it's not entirely safe for the opponent to punish it. In reality there's a lot more that goes into it since you have to take (amongst other things) your opponent's other options besides attacking into account, as well as the way that certain options cover several things at the same time; but the concept and example still stands.

When you should be trying to bait something with a dash-dance and when you should be trying to bait something with a wavedash is complicated. A lot of it is based on what you want to punish with (since each restricts/allows different options).
 
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Ministry

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
616
Location
Europe
since sheiks dash dance is so short, dash dancing is kinda bad with sheik. fox trotting is much better, you have more control when u leave your dash and do moves. Dance dancing is more to look fast and flashy. foxtrots/empty hops and wavedashes are almost always better.
 

Scroll

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
559
So here are my tips for implementing Dash Dance.
First of all I wanna talk about the concept of moving back and forth, which is more than Dashing back and forth.
Dash forward WD back is another set that does the same thing.
Running, Crouching and Running back is another.
Walking forward Running back.
Pivot WD Back.
And more..
Any combination of movement in one direction and then changing direction and or stopping, I concider Dash Dancing.
This might not be definitively correct.
My point is that you should play around with all these options and have them all ready at hand.
It is ofcourse nice to master the simple, classic Dash Dance and Extended Dash Dance (Fox Trot) first and the options you have with those.

Now before you can use any of them it's super important that you know your options from any given Action State.
If you wanna use tilts alot, know that you cannot use them directly from Dash nor Run. Therefor you need to put yourself in an Action State that allows that first.

I think the reason why many sheiks use WD heavily is because as soon as the landing lag from the air dodge is over you have every option availble to you, as opposed to say Run where you can't suddenly turn around if you don't know how.

So let's make an example.

You are using the classic "Dash Dance" of spamming Dash back and forth.
Fox comes running at you, probably with a spaced or cross up SH Nair.

If you wanna stuff his approach with an Ftilt, directly from your dash dance, then you will need to use a Pivot Ftilt.
You can also mess up his spacing by doing Shield Stop on your way forward and Nair OoS.
Using Bair in this scenario is also fantastic. That is on your Dash away do a back flip with a timed Bair that hits his Lcancel. Or a rising one that outright stuffs his Nair.

I hope that's what you're looking for.
I love talking about technical stuff so feel free to ask specific stuff or anything else
 

Eonn

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
131
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
SirEon
To use sheiks dash dance effectively you need to wait until your opponent approaches you and then dash dance away into a boost grab to avoid JC grabs and other grounded approaches. It's pretty effective. Especially against Marth, Fox, and even other Sheiks.

When you dd back and your opponent takes to the air (a good example is fox's SHFFL'd nair) you can f-tilt into fair, d-smash, or dash attack depending on the matchup.

Hope this helps! Her dd is actually really strong, it's just super situational. If you have any questions or contributions let me know, I love discussing the neutral game. =D
This is partially in response to the quote below as well as Eonn's question:


Dash-dancing doesn't necessarily make you harder to read or your intentions ambiguous. If you don't mix up your options out of dash-dance then it ends up just being "moving around"; the opponent doesn't really have to read you since it's clear that you're just going to keep dash-dancing. Dash-dancing is made safe and threatening by the potential for you to use the various options you have access to (dash attack, move forwards to take their space, boost grab, dash back pivot grab, etc.) and the ambiguity of which/when/where; the dashing itself isn't what's threatening. If you don't mix up your options from your dash-dance then you don't protect yourself through its ambiguity, and the opponent can feel confident enough to just take all of your stage or hit you.

If the opponent cannot react to an option, then the potential of that option is just as threatening as the option itself, because they have to respond to it the same way (pre-emptively); this allows you to manipulate the opponent's actions through your dash-dance by using it to apply the threat of these unreactable options. Every time you move into range for an action, you apply the pressure of that action and force a response out of the opponent. For example: if you dash towards them and threaten a dash attack then they could be baited into shielding; and when you don't dash attack, then you can grab their shield. This is part of what allows you to bait the opponent into attacking you when you dash towards them (which you can avoid by dashing away); not only are they wanting to take an opportunity to hit you (moving into their range enables them to), but they're threatened by the potential of you hitting them when you enter your attack's effective range and want to stop you before you can do so.

Every action you do should have a purpose; moving isn't inherently good and lack of movement isn't inherently bad. The principle of establishing threat through ambiguous option choice applies when you're standing still or walking like it does during dash-dancing. One of the important differences between standing/walking and dashing is that during a stand/walk you have immediate access to all of your standing options at all times, while with dashing you restrict some of your options (no grounded attacks apart from dash attack and grab, no way to stop moving immediately apart from shield-stopping), but because you're already moving you can potentially cover/move through more space in a given amount of time compared to what you can from a stand/walk, and you can change direction more quickly/frequently (both of which make your position more ambiguous). Wavedashing allows you to move along the ground and have access to your standing options at the same time, but you don't get them immediately like you do during a walk (13 frames of lag for Sheik).

Sheik will be using a lot more walking and wavedashing over dash-dancing compared to many other characters because of how reliant she is on her tilts (meaning she needs to keep access to them often) and how short her dash is. A dash has the important benefit over a wavedash in that while it's approximately the same length (in Sheik's case), it allows you to grab nearly instantly after you initiate it. You can mix dashes and wavedashes in with each other too (this is another thing that Sheik does more than most other characters).

Sheik has super good ground moves (and good moves in general), which means that just her being near you with access to these moves is very threatening. Basically, dash-dance or wavedash back are used for catching out the opponent trying to punish you for using your moves. For example: one of the ways for the opponent to beat you walking forwards and up tilting (or forward tilting, or down smashing, etc.) is to hit you; moving backwards out of range of their attack instead of attacking yourself allows you to punish them for that (with a dash-dance grab, for example). Moving like this is also relatively safe and non-committal; even if the opponent doesn't take the bait and attack, all you've done is move backwards a little bit, and from there you can continue applying pressure. So long as the threat of your moves is present, then your dash or wavedash back is potentially covered by those moves, and therefore it's not entirely safe for the opponent to punish it. In reality there's a lot more that goes into it since you have to take your opponent's other options besides attacking into account, as well as the way that certain options cover several things at the same time; but the concept and example still stands.

When you should be trying to bait something with a dash-dance and when you should be trying to bait something with a wavedash is complicated. A lot of it is based on what you want to punish with (since each restricts/allows different options).
So here are my tips for implementing Dash Dance.
First of all I wanna talk about the concept of moving back and forth, which is more than Dashing back and forth.
Dash forward WD back is another set that does the same thing.
Running, Crouching and Running back is another.
Walking forward Running back.
Pivot WD Back.
And more..
Any combination of movement in one direction and then changing direction and or stopping, I concider Dash Dancing.
This might not be definitively correct.
My point is that you should play around with all these options and have them all ready at hand.
It is ofcourse nice to master the simple, classic Dash Dance and Extended Dash Dance (Fox Trot) first and the options you have with those.

Now before you can use any of them it's super important that you know your options from any given Action State.
If you wanna use tilts alot, know that you cannot use them directly from Dash nor Run. Therefor you need to put yourself in an Action State that allows that first.

I think the reason why many sheiks use WD heavily is because as soon as the landing lag from the air dodge is over you have every option availble to you, as opposed to say Run where you can't suddenly turn around if you don't know how.

So let's make an example.

You are using the classic "Dash Dance" of spamming Dash back and forth.
Fox comes running at you, probably with a spaced or cross up SH Nair.

If you wanna stuff his approach with an Ftilt, directly from your dash dance, then you will need to use a Pivot Ftilt.
You can also mess up his spacing by doing Shield Stop on your way forward and Nair OoS.
Using Bair in this scenario is also fantastic. That is on your Dash away do a back flip with a timed Bair that hits his Lcancel. Or a rising one that outright stuffs his Nair.

I hope that's what you're looking for.
I love talking about technical stuff so feel free to ask specific stuff or anything else
Thanks for all the info guys! Definitely going to be thinking about it and trying to incorporate it into my gameplay, though it may take a while.

I have a somewhat unrelated question but I don't really feel like making a new thread; are there any general rules of thumb for positioning and when to go in?

I know this is a really broad topic but watching Armada's Sheik at the smash summit made me just question what better players are doing differently. He does a lot of the same movements and throws out moves in situations and it just works. Meanwhile on my side of things, I constantly get punished for throwing moves (especially vs spacies at low pervent, what a nightmare) and often get punished trying to go in.

I assume this comes with experience but I just don't really know what I should be looking for. My neutral consists of a lot of uncommitted play (so much that I lose stage control and get run over) since so many of my actions besides runing away result in me getting hit.

P.S. Is there some kind of Sheik Skype group with the helpful guys like you? The discussion, Q&A, and critique threads all seem dead and I feel awkward constantly posting new threads. And reddit just down votes me into oblivion for asking vague questions half the time.

Thanks!
 

Pauer

The Pauerful
Moderator
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
592
Location
Linz, Austria
I know this is a really broad topic but watching Armada's Sheik at the smash summit made me just question what better players are doing differently. He does a lot of the same movements and throws out moves in situations and it just works. Meanwhile on my side of things, I constantly get punished for throwing moves (especially vs spacies at low pervent, what a nightmare) and often get punished trying to go in.

I assume this comes with experience but I just don't really know what I should be looking for. My neutral consists of a lot of uncommitted play (so much that I lose stage control and get run over) since so many of my actions besides runing away result in me getting hit.
There's just a lot to understand in smash. The more you understand, the more of a plan you'll have. Stride explains some of the underlying concepts in his response. I recommend you to revise the first 3 paragraphs of his response regularly, they contain a lot of good content.
 

Scroll

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
559
Here is one exercise you may be doing already.
Intentionally do a non-spaced aerial on their shield and get punished for it. It doesn't have to be on shield. They can DD punish, or stuff it as well.
Now if you keep doing these a few times you will condition your opponent to trying to punish your approach "directly".

So next time you do an aerial try and do it from a larger distance such that you stay safe and they can't directly punish you for it.

Now, if they still try to punish you for it you effectively baited them into committing to that punish and so you have the upper hand and can safely punish them.

The tighter your spacing is in your bait the more reliably you can punish they'r whiffed punish attempt.

Welcome to Melee neutral game
 
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Scroll

Smash Ace
Premium
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
559
Part 2
So when ever you see your opponent mess up, try and miss your punish intentionally - but stay safe!
Watch him try to punish your "Mess up" and react to that.
Reacting to every single thing is a rookie Sheik's mistake. They effectively get baited by everything.
That's what many people mean when they say you have to be patient in neutral.

By now it should be clear why having good control over your DD is essencial.

(Not trying to dictate your play style here! Just providing food for throught)
 
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