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Sheik v. Fox/Falco Tech chasing

jdmelody

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
149
Location
Current: Kobe, Japan Hometown: Maryland
I haven't posted on her in almost a decade...So..shout out to this awesome smash community.

My question is:

How do I punish shines when I'm trying to tech chase? Do I just have to delay the timing some? Or should I just try for an aerial or something? What's the best way to punish? Any tips for tech chasing in general against spacies?
 

ECHOnce

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
1,191
Location
Bellevue, WA
You should also space yourself outside of the shine's range wherever possible.
I've been curious about something for a while, actually. Where is Sheik's hurtbox during a boost grab? Whenever I get shined out of a boost grab I'm not sure if I could've been spacing it better and gotten the grab, or if shine's hitbox just always beats boost grab if we were too slow.
 

jdmelody

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
149
Location
Current: Kobe, Japan Hometown: Maryland
Not sure about the hitboxes. But if you're making perfect time for a dash boost grab then he can't shine. Its definitely possible, which means ur either grabbing too soon or too late.

Also, asked a diff. friend for tech chase advice. He said he just dash attacks the fox.

I tried this today with a very good fox and it worked well. He caught on eventually, but it at least made him have to change his strat. The timing isn't that fast. Just a quick dash away and then dash attack back towards the Fox.
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
I've been curious about something for a while, actually. Where is Sheik's hurtbox during a boost grab? Whenever I get shined out of a boost grab I'm not sure if I could've been spacing it better and gotten the grab, or if shine's hitbox just always beats boost grab if we were too slow.
It's the same as it is during a dash grab, since a boost grab is just a dash attack cancelled into dash grab. You are moving forwards very far each frame compared to JC grab or dash grab though, which can make you more vulnerable since you'll likely be deeper inside your opponent. It's irrelevant unless you're too slow though, since you can just grab before the shine can come out. http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-hitboxes-and-frame-data.299984/

Not sure about the hitboxes. But if you're making perfect time for a dash boost grab then he can't shine. Its definitely possible, which means ur either grabbing too soon or too late.

Also, asked a diff. friend for tech chase advice. He said he just dash attacks the fox.

I tried this today with a very good fox and it worked well. He caught on eventually, but it at least made him have to change his strat. The timing isn't that fast. Just a quick dash away and then dash attack back towards the Fox.
Dash attacking isn't always a viable option. You shouldn't dash attack while they can ASDI it into the ground (or straight-up crouch-cancel it if you're slow; if they can shine then they can crouch); you can do it but it's pointless since it doesn't lead into anything. Crouch-cancel threshold is 60% for NTSC Fox and 62% for Falco; effective ASDI down threshold is pretty close to that.

Really, you should be doing nothing but grabbing until you can set up a guaranteed kill or an edgeguard, or when the opponent's positioning/the stage make it more profitable (or force you) to cut the tech chase short and transition into a combo or edgeguard.

If you think that you've missed your window for the grab (because you flub or react late), or if you're not confident with your reaction tech chasing in general, then you can dash attack early to compensate (which is nearly as good). The less confident you are in your reactions, the more situations you can cut the tech chase short in. Your end goal should still be to learn and perform the optimal tech chase on reaction though; it's definitely possible despite how few players actually do it (as evidenced by those few players being able to do it).

I'm not really sure how this would work in PAL; you can still tech chase on reaction for a while, but the difficulty of keeping it up compared to the reward of ending it early with a combo or edgeguard is much more skewed in favour of ending it, especially at high damages. It's also much easier to DI the down throw offstage or miss tech and edge cancel on the ledge, which forces the tech chase to end early in a lot more situations.
 
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jdmelody

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
149
Location
Current: Kobe, Japan Hometown: Maryland
Thank you so much for writing all of that. Very nice of you.

I have a couple questions, though if you don't mind?

1. NTSC and PAL (were these the Japanese and US versions of the game? I forget.) And if so, which one is which?

2. What does the "AS" in ASDI stand for? Auto smash DI?

3. Are you saying that it's better to just grab/read the tech, but at higher percentages, it's not a bad idea because it can lead to a F-air, or execute move?
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
1. NTSC and PAL (were these the Japanese and US versions of the game? I forget.) And if so, which one is which?
Both America and Japan use the NTSC version. All of the European countries with significant Smash scenes and Oceania use the PAL version. See this map (France uses PAL, regions where the game wasn't officially released could be using either): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg

2. What does the "AS" in ASDI stand for? Auto smash DI?
Yes; see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RP3sbS7Dm0&t=2m3s

3. Are you saying that it's better to just grab/read the tech, but at higher percentages, it's not a bad idea because it can lead to a F-air, or execute move?
It's better to react at all times (you never have to read the tech). You want to grab until you can set up for a kill. Obviously you want to kill so you should end the tech chase at some point, but there's no reason to end it early if you're able to execute it properly since you can cover every option on reaction; you can just keep tech chasing until the opponent is at kill damage or forces an edgeguard by teching right to the ledge.
 
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