Sheik run off stage turn around needle cancel instant ledge grab.

[snapcaster]

Was experimenting last night with tech skill and got a few of these.

https://gfycat.com/AnimatedPepperyChihuahua

Shout outs for schmoobildon for tasing this out and providing the info.

'So you can cancel needle charge on frame 8 earliest, and cannot buffer it with earlier shield pushes.

There are 3 inputs required for this. Back (for the b-turnaround), B (to start charging) and Shield (too cancel). With a run off, there is a 3 frame lenience in total. You can save a frame by using tilt back + B, to trigger the B-turnaround.

Fastfalling is a bad idea, as it will not save any frames, and will make it much more difficult to grab the ledge.'

Is this new tech? Do any sheiks do this? Not an easy tech but doesn't look impossible to get fairly consistent.

Oh also sheiks down throw (edge cancels?) I was looking at the other day. Is there any more info on that? I have videos I took showing some properties including chaingrabbing a peach with it to medium high percent and being able to get out of the sheik ditto chaingrab w/ it.

 

[Astherath]

Hmm... That looks pretty sick, but I don't know if it would be practical outside of using it for ramen noodle edgeguards.
Whenever new stuff is discovered two things are to be asked: How hard is it to do consistently? and How practical is it?

If you can answer those two questions, then you might have made a pretty good discovery.

 

[Pauer]

I looked at this in detail I while ago.

First of all, Kadano looked into sheik's ledgegrabs from on stage a while back and I remember it not being the fastest while one of the toughest. It looks really fancy though.

I found that the most difficult part was getting the turnaround together with the frame-tight cancel.

That's why I use the following techique: I input a jump right before I'm about to fall so that I slide off stage during the jumpsquad frames.(this is also what "steals" your jumps if you jump close to the edge)
During the jumpsquad frames I also slam the stick back to buffer a turnaround.
I then press neutral b right after the jump(for this you need to do a jump-cancel shine input) and cancel asap.

I hope you can see how this way you have more effectiv leniency but it requires having the doubleshine input down.

 

[tauKhan]

How hard is it to do consistently? and How practical is it?

It's harder and slower than other methods, and only applicable with sheik as well. So why would you spend time practicing it? Just get good with smash turn wd ledgegrabs instead.

 

[Astherath]

That's what I thought. Could definitely be used for style tho

 

[Scroll]

This can be used out of a run.
Empty Pivot (Smash Turn) WD back has to be done from Wait or Walk.
I dont have frame data on these, but afaik you have these few options, from Run, to grab ledge.
The notorious sh needle turn
Wd smash turn wd back
Teeter cancel smash turn wd back (hard)
and this

Then we have stuff like run off fast fall RNC DJ (slow)
And Ledge vanish (slide off UpB) (hit box)

all of these have uses for different scenarios.

And I'd say it's worth it to practice all of them

btw. this tech is not new. it has been around for years. many people deem it too difficult to master and apply in tournament settings tho.
With dedication anything is possible

 

[snapcaster]

It's certainly not easy >.> I've already put many many hours into getting me needle turn arounds tight and I can still barely do this with any semblance of consistency. At the very least though it does make things like pivoting feel easier as you get better control of the stick. Thanks for the answers guys; I figured as much. Still a cool tech to impress other people(sheik mains) with. But on this note does anyone have %s for the edge cancel chaingrabs? I couldn't find anything bout it when I searched online.

 

[snapcaster]

Actually just put some more time into it tonight and am already seeing great results :3. It has a kind of natural feeling to it once you get it down.

 

[tauKhan]

all of these have uses for different scenarios.

And I'd say it's worth it to practice all of them

What is the upside of learning slower and harder methods? Depending on the situation, either wd -> st -> wd -> ff or just st ->wd -> ff is the fastest way to get ledge, so why not just perfect the best method that is conveniently also the best for most of the cast in melee.

 

[snapcaster]

Well it is a hard excercise that'll help you have better understanding of the analog zones and improve consistency for the rest of your game. If you're at a level where your game is needed to be adjusted to be more frame tight seems like a good way of practicing to go about it.

 

[hologram summer]

this doesn't seem that much faster than run WD turn around WD back FF, and the speed tradeoff vs execution is so marginal that i don't know if its worth learning

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Funny, I was just practicing this technique this morning.
It's pretty hard but slightly faster than other methods.

 

[tauKhan]

Funny, I was just practicing this technique this morning.
It's pretty hard but slightly faster than other methods.

No it's not. It's slower than any of the fast methods. Wd -> smash turn -> wd is significantly faster.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Oh ok. I haven't took a look at options getting to ledge w/ Sheik.
Smash turn is damn hard though.

 

[tauKhan]

Smash turn out of wd is manageable, because the smash input buffers and you can start it during wd landing lag. It's tricky to get good wd angle fast after the turn though. However even wd -> tilt turn -> wd is faster than needle cancel turn to the ledge.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Oh wait ****. I was thinking of Run cancel. nvm
I can do dashdance > long wavedash to get to edge also.

 

[Poccoishere]

Smash turn out of wd is manageable, because the smash input buffers and you can start it during wd landing lag. It's tricky to get good wd angle fast after the turn though. However even wd -> tilt turn -> wd is faster than needle cancel turn to the ledge.

It is impossible for run -> wd -> st -> wd back to be faster than run -> run off -> rnc... I mean think for a second. It is far more difficult to do the latter but the former is far slower and arguing from that stand point is idiotic.

 

[Pauer]

It is impossible for run -> wd -> st -> wd back to be faster than run -> run off -> rnc... I mean think for a second. It is far more difficult to do the latter but the former is far slower and arguing from that stand point is idiotic.

The problem is that if you rnc, you can't fast fall. Given that you use a very horizontal wd angle, you're only slightly slower at reaching the edge with wavedashes and pivots.
You only lose few frames by not running but lose more by not fast falling.

 

[tauKhan]

Poccoishere Pauer said it well. Kadano posted a comparison of ledge grab methods here quite a while ago where rnc was bottom tier in swiftness. I think rnc ends up being slowest exactly because you can't ff it and it takes a bit of time before you can cancel the needle and ledgegrab after.

Also wd -> wd is faster than running, and doing smash turn only costs 1 frame during which you still move with considerable speed. In fact I'm pretty sure wd -> st -> wd -> st -> wd ... with good angles is faster than running.

 

[Scroll]

It's beyond me how this thread have this many views.
What happened?

 

[Pauer]

Maybe someone fell asleep on their F5 key

 

[snapcaster]

62k O.o neat.