She got nerfed AGAIN!

[Super_Smasher6]

Look at that pathetic down smash:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMAf7hjzGhk&feature=youtu.be

No missile canceling
Down Tilt can't kill anymore
Pathetic down smash
SH F-air is not effective
She is still floaty (toon link feels the same)
...

I dont even want to touch her in this game and it's a shame cause Metroid is one of my favorite series...

 

[n00b]

pls chill w the sensationalist title here

you're right, she loses missile canceling, dtilt doesn't kill anymore (remember, it didnt kill in melee), but..

down smash is only "pathetic" if your expectation of it coming into the game is to be used as a kill move. Instead, look at its low knockback and horizontal trajectory as a tool to set up for offstage advantage where Samus should be getting kills in this iteration of the game. she has buffed kill potential in many of her other moves to make up for this, IMO. I rarely use dsmash because it's pretty punishable and requires a harder read than I'd like.

SH Fair is not effective? How so? Most SH moves in this game are not very effective anyway because of landing lag and no L-cancel. It follows up beautifully from most throws, dtilt, dash attack etc.

How is being the same floatiness a nerf? If she's the same it's just "not a buff," you can't call it a nerf.

If you don't want to touch her in this game, that's fine — but for the rest of us who do plan on putting work in, we don't find your frustration helpful.

 

[YourOpinionIs]

Nerfed from what? Brawl? Not possible. Project M? Project M Samus is OP as hell. Id even say she's top 5 but there arn't enough players(besides ESAM) to push her to her limit. ESAM has been wrecking with her at every tournament he enters though.

Changes from Brawl
+Uair kills
+Screw attack kills. YOU CAN UP+B OUT OF SHIELD.
+Fair and USmash actually connects with their hits
+Charge Shot is way better, can kill
+Her custom moves are good as ****. All of your projectiles out at the same time+big bomb is crazy for stage control. One of the bomb meteor spikes.
+All of her ground moves are significantly faster
+grab is significantly faster
+she can actually combo. Dthrow>Uair>Uair>UpB or Dthrow>Fair
-Jab sucks at low percent
-no missile canceling
-limit one super missile
-zair doesn't tip
-nair sucks

Samus is a significantly different character and should be treated as such. If you're trying to play her like Brawl or PM than no **** she sucks. Stay on the ground, use her tilts, grabs and smashes. I can't tell you how many times Ive seen other samus's try to jump on other characters with a nair/dair and then throw a fit because they get punished.

 

[Zulyar]

my screw attack doesnt even kill at 150% if i do it from the stage, so idk how its a killmove exactly, but yea, it just does somem ore knockback making it safer cuz no platforms to cancel it from. its just a balnce change, it isn't a kill move stop excagerating. down smash certainly is weaker now, charge shot is better yes, bombs pretty useless becouse they cant explode on contact again, dthrow doesnt neccesarily combo at all they can ump out of the upcomming up air and some can punnish you for jumping after them with nuetral airs, idk the games super nuetral game.

1 super misile makes me sad aswell, disliking the new nuetral air, prefered the old it covered a betetr zone below her and had about the same knockback on frame 1, then lasting longer to interupt combos etc, new neutral ar dos not, it's like they wanted to give samus a fair that could kill, and then made it her nuetral. i can't get zair to work at all in this game you basicly have to do it when you fall down from your jump? ya now thats easy to avoid...

i want to remain loyal to samus, and i will but i dislike most of the changes but i'll deal with it :<

 

[Super_Smasher6]

- Samus beeing floaty is not a good thing IMO in this overall faster game.
- i dont find her forward tilt faster at all, in fact i find it has more ending lag
- down tilt could kill in melee and brawl
- you find her down smash good cause it has that little bit of horizontal knockback? have you ever seen ganondorf's sparta kick?
- in brawl you can short hop, forward air and fastfall and you could follow it with many other move, you cant do that anymore in this game cause her flamethrower stops as soon as one pixel of her foot touch the ground and you get punished, it's not even safe to do it from the ledge :/ i dont know if i explained this one right lol

Overall she just doesn't feel the same for me as in brawl

 

[YourOpinionIs]

- Samus beeing floaty is not a good thing IMO in this overall faster game.
- i dont find her forward tilt faster at all, in fact i find it has more ending lag
- down tilt could kill in melee and brawl
- you find her down smash good cause it has that little bit of horizontal knockback? have you ever seen ganondorf's sparta kick?
- in brawl you can short hop, forward air and fastfall and you could follow it with many other move, you cant do that anymore in this game cause her flamethrower stops as soon as one pixel of her foot touch the ground and you get punished, it's not even safe to do it from the ledge :/ i dont know if i explained this one right lol

Overall she just doesn't feel the same for me as in brawl

>Weight has advantages and disadvantages. Floaty means she doesn't get comboed as easily. In all iterations of Smash, Samus is notorious for being hard to combo because of her floatiness. Samus is actually a little LESS floaty in this game than Brawl and PM. So I don't even know where you're going with this.
>Sure, but Uair, UpB, Dair(sourspot on stage) could not. What's your point? Her killing moves are now relocated. Dtilt was a terrible way to kill in Brawl since it was her only kill move and predictable as hell. Can you Dtilt OOS? No. Can you Dtilt in air for a ceiling kill? No. Samus has way more kill moves now than in Brawl. I dont even think Dtilt in PM killed. You are nitpicking.
>Why are you comparing two completely different characters and their killing ability, and Ganondorf most of all. Have you ever seen how slow Ganondorf is? Zoned out for days.
> This isn't just for Samus, this is most characters. I think alot of characthers don't autocancel some of their aerial moves. But yes, this is a valid complaint. But are you really comparing Brawl Fair to Smash4 Fair? Fair is very different in this game. If their is lag for short hop, why are you doing short hop fair? Fair should be used for combos or in midair, not as an approach tool. As I said above, you are trying to use Samus as if it was Brawl, she is a VERY different character now and you need to switch up your habits as such.

Brawl kill moves that she lost: Dtilt and Dsmash(questionable)
Kill moves that she gained: On stage sourspoted dair, UpB, Charge shot, Uair, Fsmash(which is way faster now).

STOP PLAYING SAMUS LIKE YOU ARE PLAYING HER IN BRAWL/PM. For the love of God, forget everything you learned about Samus and pick her up as a completely new character that you've never played before. Pretend there is no baseline for what she is supposed to be.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Look at that pathetic down smash:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMAf7hjzGhk&feature=youtu.be

No missile canceling
Down Tilt can't kill anymore
Pathetic down smash
SH F-air is not effective
She is still floaty (toon link feels the same)
...

I dont even want to touch her in this game and it's a shame cause Metroid is one of my favorite series...

I'm going to be agreeing with this man here, but for many many other reasons besides the ones he listed.

Samus retained many of the weaknesses she had in Brawl (being able to DI out of UpB and punishing her before she lands, her defensive options being nonexistant, lacking kill power in important areas, low priority projectiles, a terrible close quarters game etc) and gained many more through this iteration.

Samus cannot missile cancel as he said. There is absolutely no way you can 'play her like a new character' when she doesn't have the tools to play WITHOUT missile cancelling. It's not like she got the Bowser treatment where she can maintain a new playstyle and actually make it work. You potentially COULD have just walked around and thrown out pivot ftilts in neutral, but you can't even do that! The ending lag got increased!

Up tilt, one of Samus's BEST moves received a buff in kill power, awesome. It also received a fat nerf. Easily easily techable on the ground. This means your efforts to punish spotdodges are gonna be for nothing.

Jab 1 still does not combo properly into Jab 2. Her Jab 2 is STILL worthless.

Dair gained a sourspot. This is absolutely terrible. We all know what we used Dair for in previous games, now, you need to be even more precise, and this basically kills ledge hop dair and you must wait for the full hitbox to come out now. It's also techable on ground hit, so you're killing nobody with it on stage.

Bair is still a pile of straight up trash. Too difficult to land consistently and worst of all, it's still overrated as hell for being a kill move. Gonna throw this out there, if you think this thing is killing mid weights consistently before 130 you're in for a shocking surprise.

Fair doesn't auto cancel and zair doesn't go through stage. What does this mean? Her 'getting back to stage' and ledge games have both been hammered. She can no longer space her aerials on the ledge due to the new mechanics absolutely annihilating her ledge game. Up B planking goes with that as well btw. She can't retether for extra invincibility either, so that's out the window as well.

The new nair may or may not be better than her old one, but I'm pretty sure it will not bring her anywhere close to viability if it is good.

Missiles are basically near to useless now. Bombs and bomb jumping are worthless.

Don't even talk to me about this new Zair. Nearly vomited.

She did receive some buffs, I won't lie about that. Charge shot and Fsmash are now solid killers and her overall speed increase is always welcome. Her grabs are all faster, but they're still not usable enough for her. She needs better throws to make it worth grabbing, and with fair shield pressure being hit due to no AC, she's gonna struggle even more to open people up. She has no pressure at longer ranges due to her lack of sustained zoning. But that's honestly about it for 'buffs' I'm afraid.

I don't want to completely discourage new players from picking up Samus, but as Xyro and many other top Samus players have said before me, she will be low tier at best in this game. Not even in my opinion, she WILL be low at best.

P.S: KillerJawz says hi to you guys ("Do you miss sourspot nair, Issy?"). Hopes you don't miss him too much. He mains Sheik this game btw, and he's the source of my information.

 

[IsmaR]

I do, actually. Nice to hear he's alive.

That said, and thread title aside, it's too early to shoot anything down. If she is trash compared to her old self again, then so be it. But trash in this game works completely differently than trash in past games. Meaning just because she feels different than what "Samus is supposed" to be like doesn't necessarily spell out a pessimistic future, both for this and the console version. We (top and beginner players alike) have only scratched the surface.

tl;dr - Didn't need an entire thread just to preemptively b'aww. You can voice constructive criticism in the main Samus thread (soon to be a general discussion/gameplay thread).