Seperate Tier Lists

[Jellyfish4102]

There should be seperate tier lists for the Wii U and 3DS versions. Why when the characters are the same? For two reasons stages and controls.

A tier list changes depending on which stages are legal. For example the Japanese Brawl tier list is different from the American tier list because Final Destination is the only legal stage in that rule set. The Wii U and 3DS versions will have different legal stages which will effect their respective meta games.

The controls are also quite different. Some characters may rely on a particular advanced technique in the Wii U version but that technique may be impossible on the 3DS version. The technique could also be possible on the 3DS version but be too difficult to perform consistently which would still affect the meta game.

Some characters may be better on the Wii U version than the 3DS version or vice versa. Thus they ought to have seperate tier lists.

 

[dimensionsword64]

Hmm. That's a good point. Like, Little Mac might be better in one version because that version has more flat stages or something. This should be kept in mind when the game is out and people are trying to create a tier list.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Hmm. That's a good point. Like, Little Mac might be better in one version because that version has more flat stages or something. This should be kept in mind when the game is out and people are trying to create a tier list.

Agreed. If in the Japanese rule set, they keep it Final Destination only. I wouldn't be surprised if Little Mac is the best character in that meta game.

 

[Ganonthegreat]

Mac'll be good but I don't think he'll be insane. I'm bot exactly interested in the metagame but I believe Jiggs is best in the air right? Jiggs is usually pretty good in FD because she has the recovery potential along with bunny hop aerials. Mac on the other hand is very much rooted with both feet on the floor.

But yeah I expect tier lists to be different, it makes the most sense.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Mac'll be good but I don't think he'll be insane. I'm bot exactly interested in the metagame but I believe Jiggs is best in the air right? Jiggs is usually pretty good in FD because she has the recovery potential along with bunny hop aerials. Mac on the other hand is very much rooted with both feet on the floor.

But yeah I expect tier lists to be different, it makes the most sense.

He probably won't be broken on FD but he'll certainly be stronger there than on Battlefield. Anyway this thread isn't specifically about Little Mac.

 

[dimensionsword64]

I was just saying that as an example.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I promise you guys that Little Mac isn't going to be broken on any stage. Space Animals had a powerful on-stage game and dysfunctional offstage game. Little Mac is terrific on stage but doesn't have any of their tools and an even worse recovery.

Anyway, yeah, Jellyfish - This makes too much sense; Though, I think this has been the consensus a while now going back to when we found out each game would have different stages.

 

[zFrost]

i don't believe controls will impact the tier list because they don't influence the stage or characters stats in any way. the stages on the other hand might alter it a little bit but i don't see that it'll be by much

 

[Jellyfish4102]

i don't believe controls will impact the tier list because they don't influence the stage or characters stats in any way. the stages on the other hand might alter it a little bit but i don't see that it'll be by much

I think they will because some characters might benefit greatly from having the c stick for example. There is always the possibility of techniques only working with two sticks or some techniques may be too difficult to perform consistently on the 3DS version.

I promise you guys that Little Mac isn't going to be broken on any stage. Space Animals had a powerful on-stage game and dysfunctional offstage game. Little Mac is terrific on stage but doesn't have any of their tools and an even worse recovery.

Anyway, yeah, Jellyfish - This makes too much sense; Though, I think this has been the consensus a while now going back to when we found out each game would have different stages.

I hadn't seen any posts on the topic so I figured I'd share my thoughts.

 

[Malex]

I don't expect the existence of a stage on either of the consoles that is tournament legal and also upsetting to the tier list. What would such a stage look like?

Barring any ATs that are difficult on a particular console, I don't think the tier lists will be that different.

 

[Gameboi834]

I don't expect the existence of a stage on either of the consoles that is tournament legal and also upsetting to the tier list. What would such a stage look like?

Well say X is a character that's good on stages with platforms. Say the Wii U has three legal stages with platforms but only two legal stages with platforms on 3DS. X would have a higher chance of playing on a preferable stage on the Wii U version, so they would, potentially, be better for Wii U than 3DS.

 

[Skunks]

The only character I could see different game versions affecting is Little Mac. It would be very interesting to see even a slight tier difference between the two versions

 

[criticalhit1992]

The Wii U version appears to have more big stages and the 3DS version has more generic stages. So yeah Little Mac will probably be different on the seperate tier lists, but Wii U does have it's share of flat stages that are perfect for Little Mac.

 

[Stompu]

The only character I could see different game versions affecting is Little Mac. It would be very interesting to see even a slight tier difference between the two versions

What about characters that excel with platforms etc? Like Jiggly/Kirby for instance are much more powerful in brawl on the maps where they can shark using their 5 jumps, rather than something like final destination where there is no opportunity to shark. If one version has more sharking maps then these two characters would be slightly stronger as a result

 

[Skunks]

What about characters that excel with platforms etc? Like Jiggly/Kirby for instance are much more powerful in brawl on the maps where they can shark using their 5 jumps, rather than something like final destination where there is no opportunity to shark. If one version has more sharking maps then these two characters would be slightly stronger as a result

I didn't even think about that, very good point.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

There were seperate tier lists for Super Street Fighter 4's console and 3DS versions do to ease of command input. I agree with seperate tier lists

 

[QuickRat]

Hm... also, I would say there is a distinction in both games physics, isn't it? I mean 3DS version seems to have a more vertical and slow physics compared to the Wii U version, am I right?

 

[Stompu]

Hm... also, I would say there is a distinction in both games physics, isn't it? I mean 3DS version seems to have a more vertical and slow physics compared to the Wii U version, am I right?

yeah, I even think the difficulty of playing without a c-stick makes bairs and smashes slightly trickier to use, which might negatively impact some characters who rely on them

 

[QuickRat]

yeah, I even think the difficulty of playing without a c-stick makes bairs and smashes slightly trickier to use, which might negatively impact some characters who rely on them

Is it confirmed that the second stick for 3DS (Circle Pad Pro) is being used as Smash-stick?

 

[Stompu]

Is it confirmed that the second stick for 3DS (Circle Pad Pro) is being used as Smash-stick?

woah whats this? gonna have to do a google

 

[Stompu]

wow if thats true ill have to pick one up

 

[QuickRat]

wow if thats true ill have to pick one up

It was an add-on for Monster Hunter 3, but there are a couple of games that uses (such as previous Sakurai game, Kid Icarus Uprising).

 

[Stompu]

it'd be such a huge advantage

 

[Sparklepower]

It was an add-on for Monster Hunter 3, but there are a couple of games that uses (such as previous Sakurai game, Kid Icarus Uprising).

Does anybody know how well this things control? Just looking at pictures of it it looks like it'd be a little awkward to be reaching over the second pad at all times when pressing the face buttons. It'd be pretty easy to accidentally move it with the mid section of your thumb and smash when you don't want to.

Also, if it works for Kid Icarus Uprising, I really need one of these. I own the game and couldn't get past the second level because the fact that I'm left handed made the controls way too awkward no matter which control option I used.

 

[Andyjoe522]

Does anybody know how well this things control? Just looking at pictures of it it looks like it'd be a little awkward to be reaching over the second pad at all times when pressing the face buttons. It'd be pretty easy to accidentally move it with the mid section of your thumb and smash when you don't want to.

Also, if it works for Kid Icarus Uprising, I really need one of these. I own the game and couldn't get past the second level because the fact that I'm left handed made the controls way too awkward no matter which control option I used.

I picked it up for Monster Hunter 3U and Resident Evil Revelations and it works pretty well. It's pretty much the same build quality as the circle pad on the system.

 

[Canuckduck]

There should be seperate tier lists for the Wii U and 3DS versions. Why when the characters are the same? For two reasons stages and controls.

A tier list changes depending on which stages are legal. For example the Japanese Brawl tier list is different from the American tier list because Final Destination is the only legal stage in that rule set. The Wii U and 3DS versions will have different legal stages which will effect their respective meta games.

The controls are also quite different. Some characters may rely on a particular advanced technique in the Wii U version but that technique may be impossible on the 3DS version. The technique could also be possible on the 3DS version but be too difficult to perform consistently which would still affect the meta game.

Some characters may be better on the Wii U version than the 3DS version or vice versa. Thus they ought to have seperate tier lists.

I'm fairly certain this will not be necessary for three reasons:

1. I suspect that the 3DS version will not be played competitively because of the inconveniences of doing so (need to have separate 3DS devices, hard to record for livestreams, small screens)
2. All of the characters will play the same for both versions.
3. If the 3DS version IS played competitively, the "legal" stages will most likely be structurally similar to stages on the Wii U (Final Destination, Battlefield, etc.)

 

[Saikyoshi]

• If the 3DS version IS played competitively, the "legal" stages will most likely be structurally similar to stages on the Wii U (Final Destination, Battlefield, etc.)

While I disagree with you first point (that there will not be a SSB3D competitive scene), this third point is exactly what I was thinking, especially with the new rulesets for 64/Melee that disabled most of the once-legal stages as precedent.

 

[LancerStaff]

Does anybody know how well this things control? Just looking at pictures of it it looks like it'd be a little awkward to be reaching over the second pad at all times when pressing the face buttons. It'd be pretty easy to accidentally move it with the mid section of your thumb and smash when you don't want to.

Also, if it works for Kid Icarus Uprising, I really need one of these. I own the game and couldn't get past the second level because the fact that I'm left handed made the controls way too awkward no matter which control option I used.

It does work for KIU, but you can't use the two analog sticks at the same time. The game apparently maxed out the hardware to the point where the processer couldn't handle two, and Sakurai hadn't heard of it until it was too late.

 

[Second Power]

While I disagree with you first point (that there will not be a SSB3D competitive scene), this third point is exactly what I was thinking, especially with the new rulesets for 64/Melee that disabled most of the once-legal stages as precedent.

No, the new rulesets aren't precedent. It took ages to reach those. Look at early melee/brawl if you want precedent.

 

[Saikyoshi]

No, the new rulesets aren't precedent. It took ages to reach those. Look at early melee/brawl if you want precedent.

I'm not so sure about that. There had to have been a reason the rules for all three games have gotten more and more conservative simultaneously.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm fairly certain this will not be necessary for three reasons:

1. I suspect that the 3DS version will not be played competitively because of the inconveniences of doing so (need to have separate 3DS devices, hard to record for livestreams, small screens)
2. All of the characters will play the same for both versions.
3. If the 3DS version IS played competitively, the "legal" stages will most likely be structurally similar to stages on the Wii U (Final Destination, Battlefield, etc.)

1. I believe there will be a 3DS community for the 3DS for at least the first two years but there is no proof for or against that.
2. The characters will be the same but they won't be played the same. The controls will hurt some 3DS characters.
3. This simply isn't true. For example the Wii U stage Pilot Wings has no 3DS counterpart. If a character likes to counterpick Pilot Wings in the Wii U version then in the 3DS version there at a disadvantage. Other examples include Halberd, Skyloft, and Mushroom Kingdom U.

 

[Saikyoshi]

1. I believe there will be a 3DS community for the 3DS for at least the first two years but there is no proof for or against that.
2. The characters will be the same but they won't be played the same. The controls will hurt some 3DS characters.
3. This simply isn't true. For example the Wii U stage Pilot Wings has no 3DS counterpart. If a character likes to counterpick Pilot Wings in the Wii U version then in the 3DS version there at a disadvantage. Other examples include Halberd, Skyloft, and Mushroom Kingdom U.

Pilotwings is already banned due to tilting, MKU is already banned due to side scrolling/walk offs, and Halberd has a very basic layout in Mode 1 and a Final Destination layout in Mode 2.

I can't say anything about Skyloft because I haven't seen it/don't remember it.

But anyway, the very definition of a legal stage is that it gives no advantage to any characters (even a slight balance shift gets a stage banned), so that's a nonissue anyway.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Or maybe, there won't be any tier list this time around.
*cough* Balance *cough*

 

[Malex]

Or maybe, there won't be any tier list this time around.
*cough* Balance *cough*

Tier lists are generated by tournament performance. For there to be no tier lists, there would have to be an even distribution of characters winning tournaments / performing well. Based on the fact that particular players tend to do better in tournaments than other players, we will see the characters they play placed higher in a tier list. (assuming it is "perfectly balanced", whatever that means)

 

[Saikyoshi]

Or maybe, there won't be any tier list this time around.
*cough* Balance *cough*

Even almost perfectly balanced games have tier lists. And if there's one thing that SSB as a whole is not, it's even remotely balanced.

*cough* Zelda *cough*

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm not so sure about that. There had to have been a reason the rules for all three games have gotten more and more conservative simultaneously.

Well part of it is the starter/counterpick system we've created. Allow me to explain.

I'll start from a "what's legal" standpoint. You spend almost all of your time arguing over which counterpick stages to allow as you really vigorously disagree over whether that Yellow Devil on Wily's Castle really is acceptable or not.

Now from the player's perspective, what's a "starter" stage is really the only thing that matters; a prudent player is likely to just master whichever stages are starters, accept losing on wacky cp stages once in a while, and then just use his own counterpicks to ensure he can still win the set on starter style stages. In the long run, that makes those counterpick stages even more hated, and the tiny starter list that was not even a focus for years becomes all you have left.

So, that's one of the biggest reason stagelists slowly get more and more conservative which is BAD as it skews game balance unfairly for certain characters FOR NO GOOD REASON. It's one of the reasons I advocate a List Striking System, the far superior system in terms of fairness.

Next:

Pilotwings is already banned due to tilting,

Lylat Cruise would like a word with you. I see no reason why that stage needs to be banned as of now.

But anyway, the very definition of a legal stage is that it gives no advantage to any characters (even a slight balance shift gets a stage banned), so that's a nonissue anyway.

Well then we wouldn't have any stage to fight on. EVERY SINGLE STAGE gives advantages to certain characters. There is no such stage that makes all matchups 50/50 and even if there was that's not the goal of even picking the first stage of a match. If we're looking at the first stage chosen you want the stage closest to the median bias for both characters. Heck if we were to make the entire match fair we'd want that for ALL matches but we also like variety. This is another big reason i advocate list striking as it fixes the issues created by the starter/counterpick system game one.

But seriously, that definition for a legal stage is WAY off no matter how you put it.

1. If the 3DS version IS played competitively, the "legal" stages will most likely be structurally similar to stages on the Wii U (Final Destination, Battlefield, etc.)

A lot of the folks invested in the 3DS version so far have wanted to be a bit more liberal with stages actually, so you may see a big difference.

The main concern is the controls. Even with the demo as we have it now there are certain pivot smash techniques that can't be done on the 3DS but can be done on the Wii U which may alter the meta. PLUS since so many people think logistically custom movesets wont work on the Wii U you may find that the 3DS has an entirely separate meta as those logistics issues don't exist on that platform. There may very well need to be a separate tier list/forums/backroom and all of the jazz for the game. (Though maybe minus the backroom, those are bad ideas in the first place.)

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Pilotwings is already banned due to tilting, MKU is already banned due to side scrolling/walk offs, and Halberd has a very basic layout in Mode 1 and a Final Destination layout in Mode 2.

I can't say anything about Skyloft because I haven't seen it/don't remember it.

But anyway, the very definition of a legal stage is that it gives no advantage to any characters (even a slight balance shift gets a stage banned), so that's a nonissue anyway.

Lylat Cruise tilted and its legal. Anyway these examples are besides the point. The point being that if we followed your logic then there would be only one legal stage. Some characters are better on Battlefield then Final Destination and vice versa. There will be an advantage on any stage with even small differences. The logic we ought to follow is that all stages are legal unless they are to big to encourage a fight, have a mechanic which greatly disrupts the fight, or gives one character a huge advantage.

Edit: ninja'd by Capps

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Or maybe, there won't be any tier list this time around.
*cough* Balance *cough*

??? Even tekken, the most balanced fighting series of all time, has a tier list

 

[Jellyfish4102]

??? Even tekken, the most balanced fighting series of all time, has a tier list

As long as there is more than one character, there will be tier list.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Lylat Cruise tilted and its legal. Anyway these examples are besides the point. The point being that if we followed your logic then there would be only one legal stage. Some characters are better on Battlefield then Final Destination and vice versa. There will be an advantage on any stage with even small differences. The logic we ought to follow is that all stages are legal unless they are to big to encourage a fight, have a mechanic which greatly disrupts the fight, or gives one character a huge advantage.

Edit: ninja'd by Capps

That's why the Japanese ruleset does only have one legal stage, and why For Glory mode exists.