Self Intro + Grab follow up from PK fire discussion.

[QUBiX]

Greetings! This is my first time posting here, but I've been lurking these threads over the past 5 months or so as I just started to get into the competitive smash scene. So with not only learning the potential of Ness in Project M, I have been learning all the skill tech that underlies the game as well to try and progress to the advance level of play. I've started to get pretty serious with devoting my time to this character and the game because I have been competing at some tournaments in my region over the past few months. I have enjoyed using Ness since I was a kid going crazy over smash on my N64, and I've played every smash title casually. Competitive gaming is not new to me by any means, and I have definitely devoted most of my gaming life to first person shooters and fighting games since a very young age.

Now, with watching countless hours of Ness content I have noticed going for a grab after a successful PK fire is a popular choice due to the variety of followups. Not only is this a great option after getting the hit confirm, but grabbing is a vital part to Ness's character design to dishing out good damage. Though what I have noticed, even at high level Ness play, is that most Ness mains go for a running grab as their follow up to PK fire instead of doing a JC'd grab.

I personally always try to remember to weigh the risk/reward odds when ever I make a decision in tournament play. Though I get a little aggravated when I see multiple missed attempts at dash grabs in a single set. Ness has a decent amount of recovery frames on his running grab, and I've noticed Ness mains end up taking a lot of unnecessary damage for missing the grab out of PK fire due to the opponent DI'ing/SDI'ing/dodge buffering out of the attack. Now I'm just curious as to why does this happen a lot? I fall victim to this as well being it's so tempting to just go for a dash grab when I see the opponent struggling to get out of PK fire, but after getting punished for whiffing (for what ever reason) I decide to just go for JC'd grabs due to Ness's very little recovery upon missing so I can have a decent chance at defending myself.

I feel like Ness players would be a lot better off if they could remember this simple fact and have better odds at not taking so much damage over the entire set. Every missed attempt that gets us punished adds up in the end, and we could have saved ourselves a few stocks (or potentially the entire set) while enjoying a comfortable lead instead of fighting "tooth and nail" until the very end.

I look up to a lot of amazing Ness players in this community and I hope I can not only reach their level of play, but
exceed their talent as a Ness main. Bryonato, Choknator, Awestin, Kayo, GMaster, NZA, etc. : Why do all of you do this to me? lol. I can't be the only Ness that notices this minor detail when analyzing matches, but I feel like it can go a long ways to being more successful and establishing a "cleaner" victory as Ness players.

I'm happy to finally be a part of this community, and I only wish I would have joined sooner. I look forward to talking to all of you, and I wish you all the best of luck on your tournament endeavors.
To those that took the time to read my post: THANK YOU ^_^

 

[Boiko]

First of all, welcome.

Moving onto the topic, I honestly can't make a case for dash grab and I personally never use it. Pivot grab is infinitely better IMO. It's 35 frames, so 5 shorter than dash and 5 longer than standing and it reaches much farther. If my opponent is close to and edge and time is an issue, I will jc grab.

However, it's not so much about the grab option, but just what the best option is in general. Some floatier characters like M2, Zelda, and even Sonic can smash DI up in the fire completely out of Ness' grab range. The question then becomes how do you capitalize on the PKF when they're out of grab range? First thing you need to look at is the character you're playing against. I'll give two examples.

Zelda. Zelda is super floaty and difficult for Ness to combo. At medium percents she can DI down throw up, jump out, and put out her own aerial so Ness can't punish. In this case, down throw typically isn't the best option. What you could do instead is dependent on where she is in PKF. If she's high, you can short hop fair/magnet into another aerial. Uair would typically knock her out of the fire and end the combo there, unless the percent is low. Nair chains can work. Dair is a good option because it can actually push her back into the fire and allow for more follow ups (this is what I did to Wizzrobe). Sometimes it's good to just go for an angled up fsmash. If she is in shield, I recommend utilizing the great footstool option and following up with djc dairs for high damage. You have a lot of options. Mix them up so your opponent doesn't DI properly.

Meta Knight. Meta Knight is a fast faller, but not spacie fast. Ness has a low percent chain grab on him with dthrows and his recovery is super punishable if you predict it. In this case, dthrow may be the best option. You can grab, hold him in the fire for a bit of extra damage with pummels, and then dthrow chain into an fthrow off stage or different follow up (run off magnet>dair is amazing). Ness has so many options from his throws against characters of this weight, honestly. There is so much you can do.

It really comes down to the MU, honestly. PM has so many unique MUs that trying to pigeonhole all of them and explain what works and doesn't is a chore.

If your question is just about dash grab vs jc grabbed, perhaps another Ness main can explain, because I think it's a pretty bad option. My thought it that they're trying to read a roll but that would be a terrible hard read.

Best of luck with your Ness play and if you have any questions just ask. People always talk about joining the skype group but I never have because I hate skype groups, but it may be worth it, as it's more active than these boards.

This is me, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLToWaf0PIc

 

[QUBiX]

I've definitely watched your gameplay Boiko. You definitely have a solid Ness

Maybe I should have specified what I was trying to get at. It wasn't more or less what options are available because I know that comes down to the character MU and specific situations for what kind of grab to go for, but I was just trying to get an opinion on the grab attempts on opponents stuck in PK fire. I just feel like if you are going to commit to the throw a JC'd grab would be a safer option than a dash grab if you happen to miss the opponent in the PK fire. That's all i'm trying to elaborate on. Nothing too deep, but just an observation I've made from analyzing a lot of Ness gameplay.

 

[Boiko]

I gotcha, and I agree. I always see Awestin use dash grabs and I never really understand why. Ness doesn't have a particularly good dash grab so it doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[reslived]

I dash grab because I am lazy. It really can be that simple. Mik always nags me to JC grab. Maybe I'll do it if he ever beats me in tourney. \(._.)/

The point being it doesn't really matter how you grab out of pkf. Just make sure u get a hit.

 

[Boiko]

I dash grab because I am lazy. It really can be that simple. Mik always nags me to JC grab. Maybe I'll do it if he ever beats me in tourney. \(._.)/

The point being it doesn't really matter how you grab out of pkf. Just make sure u get a hit.

If you whiff a dash grab, they have ten extra frames to punish you though. :/

 

[QUBiX]

Reslived you are absolutely right. What ever works best for you and allows you to get the damage then go for it if you are content with dash grabs in this situation. I just like to cover all my options for my actions and keep thinking ahead. Being mentally prepared for scenarios that may happen in a match is what I try to focus on as a player. So going for a grab that can put me at less of a disadvantage in case I miss is more appealing to me.

**I'll elaborate a little on my thought process for what I'm talking about.**

In this scenario I land a pkf on my opponent, and out of all the possible options I have available to me I have my mind set on committing to a grab as my follow up. Though being aware of my opponent's options to counter me in this series of actions I know they will try to get out of pkf by any means necessary and either:
1) Commit to a punish if I miss my grab. This will be done via their air or ground game to deal damage.
OR
2)Create space from my position before he/she decides on what they want to do after this scenario.

Knowing this can happen I want to limit what my opponent can do in their list of available options. If they choose to punish my missed grab attempt I want to make sure they have the least amount of frame advantage to do so. Going for a grab with less recovery upon whiffing seems like the best situation for myself with this given information. This is just my attempt to use a bad situation for myself against them in the best way possible.

Like I said i'm just curious as to what goes through the minds other Ness mains, and how come they decide to go with a dash/JC'd grab as their follow up upon landing a pkf.

Thank you guys for joining me in this discussion. I hope to hear from you and other Ness players soon.

 

[Zatchiel]

I dash grab because I am lazy.

This sums it up for me as well. I do use JC grab here and there, but I have to actually "force" myself to use it mid-game, which doesn't happen often. I don't usually have trouble landing dash grabs and pivot grabs where I spy an opening, so I guess I've just sorta grown comfortable with not using it anyhow.

 

[Boiko]

In this scenario I land a pkf on my opponent, and out of all the possible options I have available to me I have my mind set on committing to a grab as my follow up. Though being aware of my opponent's options to counter me in this series of actions I know they will try to get out of pkf by any means necessary and either:
1) Commit to a punish if I miss my grab. This will be done via their air or ground game to deal damage.
OR
2)Create space from my position before he/she decides on what they want to do after this scenario.

Knowing this can happen I want to limit what my opponent can do in their list of available options. If they choose to punish my missed grab attempt I want to make sure they have the least amount of frame advantage to do so. Going for a grab with less recovery upon whiffing seems like the best situation for myself with this given information. This is just my attempt to use a bad situation for myself against them in the best way possible.

This is exactly how smash fundamentals are supposed to be. Keep this mentality up and you'll go places.

I use JC grabs almost all the time as I came from melee and it's essentially second nature.

 

[choknater]

if people SDI out of my grab attempts during pk fire, i will do something else like instant djc dairs for damage stacking, or magnet nairs for more guaranteed damage. these often result in even more damage than if i had grabbed them, lol

 

[Boiko]

if people SDI out of my grab attempts during pk fire, i will do something else like instant djc dairs for damage stacking, or magnet nairs for more guaranteed damage. these often result in even more damage than if i had grabbed them, lol

Usually true. I typically go for two DJC dairs/bairs on most characters who I know I won't get great follow up on after grabs.

 

[Mr. Ganondorf]

The only reason to use dash grab with any character would be if the grab comes out faster (I believe Samus is like that in melee) or if the grab has more range (like Bowser and DK in PM). However, it seems like Ness' grab range sucks whether it's a JC grab or a dash grab, so it's prly best to JC (especially since it's generally a good habit) or like Boiko said pivot grab (which in Melee means a 1 frame hard to do thing only viable from a dash dance animation, but in PM you can simply turn around from a run and grab backwards, it's OP and catches a lot of melee players off guard).

 

[Boiko]

The only reason to use dash grab with any character would be if the grab comes out faster (I believe Samus is like that in melee) or if the grab has more range (like Bowser and DK in PM). However, it seems like Ness' grab range sucks whether it's a JC grab or a dash grab, so it's prly best to JC (especially since it's generally a good habit) or like Boiko said pivot grab (which in Melee means a 1 frame hard to do thing only viable from a dash dance animation, but in PM you can simply turn around from a run and grab backwards, it's OP and catches a lot of melee players off guard).

Oft forgotten (dumb) reason to dash grab is for characters who have sticky tethers to beat a spot dodge (yoshi, Lucas). Otherwise this post is pretty much spot on.

Oh and that dumb D3 glitch but that's super circumstancial.