Seeking Advice

[Shoto]

I've just started playing Ness. I've transitioned over from Falco, and I'm in the habit of SHFFLing n-air. I know that Ness can DJC, but I'm having a hard time with it. I seem to be able to get it out, but I strain my hands each time doing it + the LCancel which i can rarely get out on his b-air. I was wondering if anyone had tips for DJC and any other guidance on the playing of Ness. Thank in advance

 

[Bryonato]

One of the most important aspects of DJC imo is experimenting with different methods and finding which is most comfortable. Let's look at the options you have for DJC:
1. Double tapping face buttons ("double x/double y")- Double tapping face buttons is the method most people start with and the method I think most people use. It allows you to get the most swing/distance out of your DJCs and it gives you a lot of room to mess with different timings. IMO it requires a bit more dexterity to get really fast DJCs with this method. I've refined my double y (yeah I know I use Y to jump and i'm weird; sue me) form down to lightly tapping it twice really fast and sliding it over to A quickly. You can also double y and press Z (I know some Ness' to this) for aerials.
2. Face Button (x/y) + tap jump- This is the method that is used to generally get the lowest and fastest djcs. You press x/y first, tap jump, then can either press A or use the cstick for your aerial. I personally use this method the most since my playstyle incorporates a lot of low and fast DJC dairs and uairs, and this method is very efficient for those.
3. Double tap jump: I know Gmaster uses this for certain djcs. I personally find it very uncomfortable and awkward. Not really sure what it is used for lol.
4. Tap/xy + R: I know The NZA sets his R button to jump and uses it for certain DJCs as well. This is another method I can't comment on as I have R set to attack for both rising aerials and DACUS.

So afaik those are the most common methods to DJC with. I use a heavy combination of both double x/y and x/y + tap in my game. I use double x/y for my swinging djc bairs, djc nair, some djc fairs, and most djc'd aerials out of magnet. I use x/y + tap for instant djc dair punishes, djc uair juggles, ledge jump canceling, and uair/dair out of magnet. I use it in that combination because that's just what i'm comfortable with. Being good at DJCs imo is very much a comfort thing. If you simply can't find anything comfortable then I suggest you sit in practice mode for 45min-1hr a day and grind out DJCs until you get better at them.

I also heavily suggest you read the Ness Q/a, "how are you using magnet?", and other threads on this board as we talk about this sorta thing a lot. Hope this was helpful.

 

[mimgrim]

4. Tap/xy + R: I know The NZA sets his R button to jump and uses it for certain DJCs as well. This is another method I can't comment on as I have R set to attack for both rising aerials and DACUS.

Out of curiosity, what do you have Z set to?

 

[Bryonato]

z is just grab for me. Nothing interesting.

 

[mimgrim]

z is just grab for me. Nothing interesting.

You could use that for rising aerials instead, even with it set to grab. It's what I do for rising aerials, probably because I use it for Peach's float in Melee.

 

[Bryonato]

yeah but DACUS tho T_T

 

[mimgrim]

Does Ness actually have a significant DACUS? As I haven;t been able to find anything about it on him and any guide I look at about DACUS, be it Brawl or PM, never list Ness as one with a significant DACUS slide.

 

[Bryonato]

nah is dacus is shorter than just his regular running usmash. I use it for other characters though like Lucas, Wario, Ike, etc.

 

[mimgrim]

Does Ike make better use out of a shoulder button set to jump? Because QD Usmash > DACUS for him, right?

Lucas and Wario are legit though.

You could always make 2 tags and have each one have R set to a different input based on the character you are using.

 

[Bryonato]

DACUS is faster than QD usmash tho QD gives you more options in terms of distance. DACUS allows you to do stuff you cant do with qd usmash like Fthrow -> dacus.


and yeah i could make 2 tags but nobody is going to put up with that in a tournament setting haha

 

[mimgrim]

Well. You could always do DACUS the old way, unless on of the characters you use require it to be set to the more convenient way.

I also thought it was possible to follow up out of throws with QD. Or at least Ike mains I see talk about make it seem that way.

 

[Bryonato]

it is. just not with usmash in the same way dacus is utilized. I really don't have any qualms with my control scheme though haha

 

[Shoto]

I've found that DJC's are most comfortably performed using the X button for me. I perform rising aerials with A, because X and A are literally right next to each other. I've experimented using the PSI magnet, but could anybody clarify wavebouncing, how its performed, and wave dashing out of DJC and Magnet?

 

[Bryonato]

Magnet is something I believe should be saved for later on AFTER you have your fundamentals down. It's not exactly the most intuitive tool and takes a lot of practice and finesse to get down IMO.

As for your wavebouncing question, allow me to direct you here: http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

For wavedashing out of DJC, I jump with y + tap (I angle the tap diagonally so I get the either the forward or backward swing with the DJ) and then roll the stick down and press L for the WD. Again, this is something I wouldn't work on until your fundamentals and tech skill are very solid.

For wavedashing out of Magnet, you might be referring to "Magnet dashing." You do this by short hopping and then magnetting as close to the ground as possible, and then jumping and wavelanding out immediately after. This is a situational technique, but is very good for baiting and comboing floaties at higher %. Mag dash also forces a knockdown/tech on spacies at higher % as well.

If you'd like I can provide footage of me doing all these things when I get home.

 

[G13_Flux]

i find that to make the best use out of DJC, you almost have to use tap jump, since angling the control stick diagonal up in either direction allows you to get those useful momentum burst in a certain direction. i usually jump with y, then use tap jump, immediately followed by the c stick to get my DJCs. i use double tap y for neutral aerials, although you dont need to use those as often as things like djc fairs, bairs, and dairs. if youre trying to learn to DJC, you really just need to build up muscle memory. go into training mode and do the maneuver a bunch of times over. try incorporating it into your gameplay too. it will certainly be messy play at first, but you have to get used to doing it against a dynamic player as well.

 

[GMaster171]

I agree that its largely about how you need to get a style that's comfortable for you first, before you move into more complex and situational methods. Each method has its own merits and its own place in matches. The three ways possible are:

double tap jump: the slowest of the three, but the easiest to get decent height aerials with. I started using this one and moved on to the others later. I still use it when I need aerials slightly off the ground.

button->tapjump: the fastest of the three, allowing for the quickest and lowest aerials. Doesn't work well with bair or uair due to their hitboxes coming out late (only if fastfalled). I use this one mainly for reads with dair, or dair OOS.

double button: mid speed, but allows for the maximum horizontal movement due to the ability to both hold a direction while jumping, and gaining access to Ness' unique backwards jump that adds quite a distance. The most useful of the three but arguably the hardest to do. these are the ones you will be using to poke shields safely with bair, get max distance with approaching fairs, cover most distance in tech chases with dair and juggle characters across stages with uair.

There is of course tap jump->button, but it doesnt really do anything the others dont, and is slightly harder than all of them.

 

[G13_Flux]

you can actually get the same backwards momentum jump with bair by using the button > tap jump method. If you hit diagonally up to the left or right, you can get the same effects as if you did the double button method. The same with fair. ive used both of them and i cant tell the difference. the drawback is that you have to make your right thumb do more work to go hit the c stick quickly, but the upside is that you arent at risk of doing a rising aerial instead, which is easily accidentally done with the double button method. either way, again thats just preference.

 

[Bryonato]

button->tapjump: the fastest of the three, allowing for the quickest and lowest aerials. Doesn't work well with bair or uair due to their hitboxes coming out late. I use this one mainly for reads with dair, or dair OOS.

How exactly doesn't button -> tap work with uair? this is the only way I ever do djc uairs.

 

[GMaster171]

I forgot to mention I assumed FF the aerials in that case, as its the fastest possible. They do work :/
Ill edit to clear that up

 

[Shoto]

Magnet is something I believe should be saved for later on AFTER you have your fundamentals down. It's not exactly the most intuitive tool and takes a lot of practice and finesse to get down IMO.

As for your wavebouncing question, allow me to direct you here: http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.334389/

For wavedashing out of DJC, I jump with y + tap (I angle the tap diagonally so I get the either the forward or backward swing with the DJ) and then roll the stick down and press L for the WD. Again, this is something I wouldn't work on until your fundamentals and tech skill are very solid.

For wavedashing out of Magnet, you might be referring to "Magnet dashing." You do this by short hopping and then magnetting as close to the ground as possible, and then jumping and wavelanding out immediately after. This is a situational technique, but is very good for baiting and comboing floaties at higher %. Mag dash also forces a knockdown/tech on spacies at higher % as well.

If you'd like I can provide footage of me doing all these things when I get home.

Sure, i would enjoy videos to help me learn a bit better, and quicker.

 

[mimgrim]

Personally I have L set to jump along with Y. And I have Z set to attack with X set to grab. And I have tap jump off. I also have A set to shield along with R.

I have a whacky control scheme going on. I wish I had another button so I could map Footstools to it though.