Secondary Character Choice Discussion

[LSSH | fish]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member to this board from midwestern Canada, hope to become acquainted with you all.

I've been playing Samus since I began playing Melee in 2014 and have steadily been getting better and seeing more results as I play, however there are certain quirks to mid level competitive play that have been giving me trouble.

Certain match-ups that I find particularly hard to deal with are Marth and Sheik, who's disjoint and combo game respectively give Samus a lot of trouble.

Which character out of the cast do you think is the simplest to keep as a secondary to cover particularly bad match-ups for Samus? Or to simplify it even further, who do you play when Samus doesn't seem to work?

(Edit)
I decided that I'd add some of my own personal opinion first before asking your own. I think that the most optimal choice in terms of character matchup would be Fox, due to his high ability in top tier match-ups such as Falcon and Sheik. The one drawback is that Fox comes with a high technical ceiling which may be difficult to maintain and practice consistently.

In terms of a character that is less technical but still covers some of Samus' negative match-ups, I'd say Marth is a very good pick. His range and spacing gameplay is familiar enough that a Samus can transition relatively easily, and his disjoint and maneuverability allow him to space out and fight characters like floaties fairly easily.

Although I don't think Marth is as effective a dual main as Fox, I think he could put up a relatively better fight against some of Samus' bad match-ups. What do you guys think?

 

[btbama22]

I struggle most with Marth. My secondary is Ness, and for whatever reason, I do better against Marth with Ness than I do with Samus

 

[LSSH | fish]

I struggle most with Marth. My secondary is Ness, and for whatever reason, I do better against Marth with Ness than I do with Samus

Yeah, I think that Marth is a pretty difficult match-up for Samus in that he has the tools to force bad options easily. Ness is definitely a cool secondary character, but I'd assume you do better with him due to inexperience in the match-up since Ness is a less common character. I think a particularly good character to fight Marth with is Captain Falcon, since their punish game is pretty much even, although edge guarding is hell.

 

[HolePuncher]

Samus does generally well against spacies but not so good against the other viable non-spacies (Marth, Shiek, Puff, Peach, Falcon).

So you should be looking for someone to cover the non-spacie matchups. Also, since your secondary is going to get less practice time than your main, you probably want to avoid characters with high tech skill. I think this narrows it down to either Sheik or Puff.

Sheik Secondary:
PRO - very straightforward combos with low tech requirements
PRO - similarities to samus for faster learning: defensive/reactive style, not dash-dance or shffl heavy, move usage (cc dsmash, nair oos, horizontal projectile that can be charged)
PRO - covers marth and falcon matchups well
CON - puff matchup will be hard as either sheik or samus. will end up playing shiek dittos against sheik mains
CON - everyone has experience vs sheik. does not benefit with matchup unfamiliarity the way samus sometimes does

Puff Secondary:
PRO - low tech requirements
PRO - covers sheik and peach well (imo good vs marth and falcon but that's debatable)
PRO - may benefit from some matchup unfamiliarity
CON - style is unique. few similarities with other characters could make learning slower
CON - puff dittos vs puff mains? yuck!

Right now I'm using sheik as my secondary and definitely notice the balance changing to my favor in the marth and falcon matchups. The transition from samus to sheik feels pretty natural.

I do play around with puff a bit but progress is slow. The lack of a good oos option is frustrating compared to samus.

 

[LSSH | fish]

Right now I'm using sheik as my secondary and definitely notice the balance changing to my favor in the marth and falcon matchups. The transition from samus to sheik feels pretty natural.

I do play around with puff a bit but progress is slow. The lack of a good oos option is frustrating compared to samus.

Excellent summary of those two characters and how they relate to Samus' bad MU's, I've definitely tried to play Sheik for match-ups like Marth in particular, but since I personally prefer a more technical game, I've always inched toward fastfallers for particular floaty and negative high tier match-ups. I do like your idea of writing down the Pros and Cons of your respective secondary characters so I suppose I'll do the same for my own

Fox Secondary:
PRO - Fast character with very few negative match-ups
PRO - Covers Shiek and Falcon very well, two of Samus' particularly bad match-ups
PRO - Strong horizontal and vertical kill options, opening him up as a good choice for smaller stages that Samus is less favoured on
PRO - Combo heavy gameplay, which can appeal to players that enjoy performing fast and aggressively
CON - Very technical and hard to maintain, requires lots of practice time
CON - Very prominent in tournament play, so most opponents will likely be skilled in the matchup
CON - Character's kit is very different in relation to Samus so switching between the two may seem unnatural at times

Falcon Secondary:
PRO - Strong tech chasing options, relating to Samus' combo game
PRO - Fast movement and fall speed which can catch the opponent off guard if they've been conditioned for a slower pace
PRO - Good horizontal kill options which open up smaller stages like Yoshi's and Battlefield
CON - Easily comboed by much of the cast since he is a fast faller and is fairly large
CON - Recovery is easily stunted and has less variability than Samus
CON - Character's kit is different in relation to Samus so switching may seem unnatural

At the moment, most of my success in tournament comes from my ability to switch between a faster paced playstyle and a slower more neutral oriented game. I think in part this comes from me picking up Fox for a few months after learning Samus, however I think it was well worth it for the ability to both combo spacies with Samus combos and also switch into Fox to deal with the more difficult neutral oriented floaties. I'd definitely like to hear what you think about this as well

 

[HolePuncher]

Of course above all you should pick a character that makes sense to you.

I wonder if fox as a secondary is more viable when you consider that you are only using fox for a couple specific matchups. This would allow you to focus your practice. M2K's fox doesn't do any crazy technical stuff when he uses it vs puff. For the most part he just plays a runaway style with lasers and grabs.

 

[LSSH | fish]

Of course above all you should pick a character that makes sense to you.

Yes, I'd agree that this is the best solution for success. But it is interesting to theory craft.

I wonder if fox as a secondary is more viable when you consider that you are only using fox for a couple specific matchups. This would allow you to focus your practice. M2K's fox doesn't do any crazy technical stuff when he uses it vs puff. For the most part he just plays a runaway style with lasers and grabs.

This is what I've considered as well. After playing Fox for quite some time and learning the fundamentals and more, I feel that it's simple enough to keep him in the pocket for choice matchups. From personal experience I'd say its quite effective, however if you don't continually play those match-ups you can definitely build up a bit of Fox rust.

 

[bboss]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member to this board from midwestern Canada, hope to become acquainted with you all.

I've been playing Samus since I began playing Melee in 2014 and have steadily been getting better and seeing more results as I play, however there are certain quirks to mid level competitive play that have been giving me trouble.

Certain match-ups that I find particularly hard to deal with are Marth and Sheik, who's disjoint and combo game respectively give Samus a lot of trouble.

Which character out of the cast do you think is the simplest to keep as a secondary to cover particularly bad match-ups for Samus? Or to simplify it even further, who do you play when Samus doesn't seem to work?

(Edit)
I decided that I'd add some of my own personal opinion first before asking your own. I think that the most optimal choice in terms of character matchup would be Fox, due to his high ability in top tier match-ups such as Falcon and Sheik. The one drawback is that Fox comes with a high technical ceiling which may be difficult to maintain and practice consistently.

In terms of a character that is less technical but still covers some of Samus' negative match-ups, I'd say Marth is a very good pick. His range and spacing gameplay is familiar enough that a Samus can transition relatively easily, and his disjoint and maneuverability allow him to space out and fight characters like floaties fairly easily.

Although I don't think Marth is as effective a dual main as Fox, I think he could put up a relatively better fight against some of Samus' bad match-ups. What do you guys think?

Sheik or Fox.

EDIT: Maybe both of them. They are both very strong characters who do well in Samus's bad MUs, however Sheik is the closer to Samus's movement. And a mid-tier main to consider is Ganondorf, or Young Link.