Joshua Flynn
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2015
- Messages
- 164
This thread isn't intended to give 'absolute' advice, nor is it just to duck hunt players themselves, but is also aimed at other characters working with duck hunt duos, or players who are looking for the right character pick when approaching duck hunt. For all purposes, this will assume that duck hunt duo projectiles (with the exception of the can) will not hurt the teammate, as DHD is deemed not a good choice for friendly fire off situations.
Teammate character choice
A mistake often made by teammates is duck hunt duo can handle close combat or perform KOs (and thus will pick a projectile character). Whilst really good players can handle this, DHD's poor launching power makes this a bad role assignment, especially when it comes to KOs, so teammates working with DHD are strongly advised to pick power characters (ex: Donkey Kong, Wario, Ryu), because DHD, if anything, will rack up the damage in quick time and therefore the teammate should be well placed to take advantage of this. If a player has a good eye for Jigglypuff's rest, this can be a quickly fatal combo, but one only in the hands of skilled players.
Non-power characters (EG projectile users, light users) perform poorly in combination with DHD, largely because Nintendo's hatchet job means that teammate moves will destroy frisbees and hit cans (yes, even with friendly fire on!), which includes other projectiles, meaning a samus rocket will be destroyed by and destroy a frisbee (and everyone gets frustrated!). Slow characters are also not recommended because they cannot capitalise fully on DHD's interrupt ability (ex: Ganondorf), nor can they protect their four legged friend if they're slow to keep pace.
Power users, followed by speed users, are recommended: power users can KO the high damaged opponents that DHD gets early on and can exploit the project interrupt openings to introduce powerful moves, and speed users can exploit the openings and quickly retreat/assist DHD using speed as a tool of harassment.
Performance
Do not berate your DHD if they don't get any kills: their main goal will be to keep your opponents busy (IE projectile flailing) and to keep them damaged. Their lack of launch power means they are unlikely to kill anyone, although they will no doubt try. You'll know you have a good DHD on your team when your KO count skyrockets (for example 4 - 6 KOs in a 2 minute match) - that's because the damage they're doing is making your KOs easier.
Assisting DHD
Teammates can further assist their fellow DHDs by acting as bodyguard and assisting them by interrupting stage spike attempts on their recovery. It's not unusual for a DHD to survive being pummelled to high percents (186%) in a 2 minute match, largely because their air time is so good and disorganised fighting results in few smash moves. DHD can also act as bait when high percent by floating and jumping towards their teammate.
Being aware of DHD projectiles and how they work is a great boon - for example, keep distance from the can and avoid attacking when next to a frisbee. It's also recommended teammates don't purposefully hit the can unless it's to lob it into the face of an opponent, as it's position might be strategic to DHD and hitting it may change it's shot trajectory. Teammates should however hit the can if it's far away from DHD (EG he's being juggled) off the edge so it resets.
DHD capabilities
DHDs can hold their own against most opponents 1v1, and if their multi-tasking is up to scratch, they can even handle both opponents for a short period. For this reason, DHDs are effectively the 'masterminds' of the stage - they have to keep tabs not only on themselves, but their projectiles and both opponents, so it's recommended to teammates they try to herd the opponents together (frisbees and cans are most effective as they can hit both together), and that said teammate have familiarity on the DHD can physics - how they react to hits.
Teamwork moves
Surprisingly, there are teamwork moves to be had. If a teammate has a grasp on can physics, a DHD will happily supply you with a lifetime's supply worth of cans to launch at the opponent - some characters are better at can launches than others. Get familiar with launching cans at opponents - it will be a huge boon as it will mean missed cans can be utilised by a teammate instead.
Teammates should be on the lookout for a DHD who tosses frisbee and wait until it hits an opponent - that is your cue to engage them (as DHD can't move due to end lag). If the opponent shields, grab (tosses should ideally be horizontal so DHD can hit them again with a projectile - do not toss opponents towards DHD as close range is a bad idea), and if not, attack them.
DHD's main role will be assistance and coverage - they will cover you with a range of projectiles to interrupt the opponents. Be sure to understand what gunmen can and can't absorb and use them as shields against attacks. DHD does not fight well at close range, so don't expect him to enter the fray unless it's safe to do so (DHDs are advised not to get caught up in the mish-mash of fighting because the short range of attacks mean you'll lose out).
The best position to occupy when starting is in-front of DHD - firstly so you can shield the opponent's incoming attacks, and so you're closer to them when the frisbee/gunman hits. It's not recommended to stay over-protective of DHD as they can defend themselves, but acting as bodyguard when they get juggled (due to DHD's huge end lag this is a nightmare) is highly recommended, as the sooner DHD is back on his feet, the sooner he can lay down covering fire.
Best character choices, and why
Here's a more specific list of optimal character choices (in no particular order). Who you're fighting should determine what character you pick as well.
Donkey Kong; power user with good enough speed. When DHD has locked an opponent with a projectile, move in and pummel. Be warned DK's large moves will destroy projectiles and thus DHD can't use frisbee as coverage.
Captain Falcon; fast coverage, but also with power to punch and KO high damage opponents. Falcon players will find their game is about patience rather than speed - allow DHD to setup an opening and exploit. Be wary, as Falcon Kick will destroy frisbee, however.
Sonic; speed harasses opponents (don't even wait for the opening), which leaves them vulnerable to projectiles and allows DHD to insert his own attacks. This is a more even match up as both parties will have to work on KOs, but Sonic's ability to quickly assist is a huge boon.
Little Mac; this is pretty much an assured win. DHD's superior grab means he can hold opponents for Mac's KO move, and the projectiles coupled with Mac's unbreakable punches make for a difficult to break defence. The fact Mac KOs on low damage and DHD does damage by the bucketloads means these two are a winning combination. Don't be surprised if you floor the competition. DHDs will have to be on point with rescue to prevent Little Mac getting aerial KO'd, though.
Mario/Luigi; assuming they stay off their fireballs (which destroy frisbee, interrupt can etc) and stick to power smash moves and keeping quick attacks, either character is a nice fair choice for DHD. They aren't as well suited to exploit DHDs advantages, but they aren't a bad choice, either. Luigi has a bigger advantage over Mario if his up-B accuracy is good: DHD's damage will make it so Luigi can KO early on.
Ryu; if Ryu users can keep patience, they'll find plenty of easy close range openings, and the damage done will mean Ryu gets an easy KO. Ryu seems a poor choice in comparison to Little Mac, however, especially as the projectiles of Ryu interferes with DHD's gameplan and the spinning kick will destroy/hit either.
Wario; probably the best choice next to Little Mac. Warios will receive a win-win situation, and there's plenty of reason why: opponents will have to deal with both projectiles and Wario's bike, and DHDs are in a fantastic position to easily destroy Wario's bike at a distance if it's denied to him (EG opposite ledge) - a can will suffice. The power moves of Wario gain from DHD's damage power, and a Wario chewing on an opponent gives enough time for DHD to forward smash A to fatality. DHDs next to Wario's bike can use it as an edge guarding tool and as an additional projectile, and the bike offers DHD protection. Even better - the fart can KO at high percents even in a low stage and as DHD often gets high percent opponents, this is another win-win.
Charizard; no prizes for guessing why, but his side-B means he can make head-way and easily kill high damage opponents. Alternating side-Bs between DHD and Charizard will often result in Charizard hitting a target. BOOM, off the screen. Don't expect him to assist DHD, though...
Worst character choices, and why
Another duck hunt duo; given the similarity of moves, and the lack of launching power, it means both characters can be beaten by shielding and can both hit the issue of KOing opponents who might have a dangerous combination of anti-projectile characters (EG Wario coupled with Dark Pit, or worse, Charizard and Pikachu). Never do this, ever!
[This applies even if DHD is your main man and you're both pros with DHD. You will find a good DHD with a semi-decent power users does better than two good DHDs because the punching power of power users allows early KOs.]
Samus; although Samus has some punching power, the projectiles interfere heavily with DHDs projectiles and produce horrible results: the opponents get a free game of nullified projectiles whilst you both get the fun of a projectile-free-esque game.
Zero suit samus; continuing with the subtle 'hate on samus' theme, zero suit samus is a poor choice, but for a different reason entirely: because her moves largely involve very high speed and jumping, she will find DHDs horizontal game to be hugely in conflict with her vertical game. Trying to grab Mario? Nope... DHD just interrupted it with a frisbee, sorry. Juggling in the air? Well, DHD has no approach options besides a can. Boom. Whoops. The speed game conflicts badly because samus has to wait on DHD to form an opening, or risk trying to form an opening herself only to find that slow frisbee or can just ruined it. Avoid if you can.
ROB; on the preface, seems like a great idea: he has projectiles, spinning moves and more spinning moves. The problem is, his spinning moves destroy and interfere with DHD's game, and especially that spinning top! An A-attack heavy ROB can work nicely (he has the power to launch), but it seems pointless to drop several techniques. His large size also makes him quite vulnerable to accidental can explosions. Sorry ROB, off switch for you.
Pikachu; whilst a nicely timed lightning bolt/frisbee alternation will frustrate most players, his slippery speed means Pikachu runs afoul of the projectile game: because the frisbee interrupts at specific points, and pikachu 'slides' slightly on exit, it often becomes Pikachu 'misses' the opponents held in the frisbee interrupt. His thunderbolt also blocks and deflects cans, and because most of his attacks involve being continually electrocuted, he destroys frisbees long before they reach the opponent. The small size and lack of punching power (Pikachu tends to juggle more than KO) means he's not the best match up.
Ness/Lucas; whilst on first appearance their ability to absorb damage seems great, Ness and Lucas are, at heart, projectile users (PK fire, thunder, freeze/flash etc), which means PK fire will block frisbees, thunder will be blocked by cans, gunmen and frisbees (if Ness, if Lucas he'll just destroy them instead), and who uses freeze/flash anyway? The absorb will rarely get used in a hectic fight, which means four of the PK team's moves are not that practical. They do have the capacity to do some nice launches (especially if DHD protects and they use PK thunder to setup) but they're not exploiting the advantages here.
Other characters vary. They can work or not work depending on how they're used.
Anyway, light coverage. I'm sure others will have much more useful information to add.
Teammate character choice
A mistake often made by teammates is duck hunt duo can handle close combat or perform KOs (and thus will pick a projectile character). Whilst really good players can handle this, DHD's poor launching power makes this a bad role assignment, especially when it comes to KOs, so teammates working with DHD are strongly advised to pick power characters (ex: Donkey Kong, Wario, Ryu), because DHD, if anything, will rack up the damage in quick time and therefore the teammate should be well placed to take advantage of this. If a player has a good eye for Jigglypuff's rest, this can be a quickly fatal combo, but one only in the hands of skilled players.
Non-power characters (EG projectile users, light users) perform poorly in combination with DHD, largely because Nintendo's hatchet job means that teammate moves will destroy frisbees and hit cans (yes, even with friendly fire on!), which includes other projectiles, meaning a samus rocket will be destroyed by and destroy a frisbee (and everyone gets frustrated!). Slow characters are also not recommended because they cannot capitalise fully on DHD's interrupt ability (ex: Ganondorf), nor can they protect their four legged friend if they're slow to keep pace.
Power users, followed by speed users, are recommended: power users can KO the high damaged opponents that DHD gets early on and can exploit the project interrupt openings to introduce powerful moves, and speed users can exploit the openings and quickly retreat/assist DHD using speed as a tool of harassment.
Performance
Do not berate your DHD if they don't get any kills: their main goal will be to keep your opponents busy (IE projectile flailing) and to keep them damaged. Their lack of launch power means they are unlikely to kill anyone, although they will no doubt try. You'll know you have a good DHD on your team when your KO count skyrockets (for example 4 - 6 KOs in a 2 minute match) - that's because the damage they're doing is making your KOs easier.
Assisting DHD
Teammates can further assist their fellow DHDs by acting as bodyguard and assisting them by interrupting stage spike attempts on their recovery. It's not unusual for a DHD to survive being pummelled to high percents (186%) in a 2 minute match, largely because their air time is so good and disorganised fighting results in few smash moves. DHD can also act as bait when high percent by floating and jumping towards their teammate.
Being aware of DHD projectiles and how they work is a great boon - for example, keep distance from the can and avoid attacking when next to a frisbee. It's also recommended teammates don't purposefully hit the can unless it's to lob it into the face of an opponent, as it's position might be strategic to DHD and hitting it may change it's shot trajectory. Teammates should however hit the can if it's far away from DHD (EG he's being juggled) off the edge so it resets.
DHD capabilities
DHDs can hold their own against most opponents 1v1, and if their multi-tasking is up to scratch, they can even handle both opponents for a short period. For this reason, DHDs are effectively the 'masterminds' of the stage - they have to keep tabs not only on themselves, but their projectiles and both opponents, so it's recommended to teammates they try to herd the opponents together (frisbees and cans are most effective as they can hit both together), and that said teammate have familiarity on the DHD can physics - how they react to hits.
Teamwork moves
Surprisingly, there are teamwork moves to be had. If a teammate has a grasp on can physics, a DHD will happily supply you with a lifetime's supply worth of cans to launch at the opponent - some characters are better at can launches than others. Get familiar with launching cans at opponents - it will be a huge boon as it will mean missed cans can be utilised by a teammate instead.
Teammates should be on the lookout for a DHD who tosses frisbee and wait until it hits an opponent - that is your cue to engage them (as DHD can't move due to end lag). If the opponent shields, grab (tosses should ideally be horizontal so DHD can hit them again with a projectile - do not toss opponents towards DHD as close range is a bad idea), and if not, attack them.
DHD's main role will be assistance and coverage - they will cover you with a range of projectiles to interrupt the opponents. Be sure to understand what gunmen can and can't absorb and use them as shields against attacks. DHD does not fight well at close range, so don't expect him to enter the fray unless it's safe to do so (DHDs are advised not to get caught up in the mish-mash of fighting because the short range of attacks mean you'll lose out).
The best position to occupy when starting is in-front of DHD - firstly so you can shield the opponent's incoming attacks, and so you're closer to them when the frisbee/gunman hits. It's not recommended to stay over-protective of DHD as they can defend themselves, but acting as bodyguard when they get juggled (due to DHD's huge end lag this is a nightmare) is highly recommended, as the sooner DHD is back on his feet, the sooner he can lay down covering fire.
Best character choices, and why
Here's a more specific list of optimal character choices (in no particular order). Who you're fighting should determine what character you pick as well.
Donkey Kong; power user with good enough speed. When DHD has locked an opponent with a projectile, move in and pummel. Be warned DK's large moves will destroy projectiles and thus DHD can't use frisbee as coverage.
Captain Falcon; fast coverage, but also with power to punch and KO high damage opponents. Falcon players will find their game is about patience rather than speed - allow DHD to setup an opening and exploit. Be wary, as Falcon Kick will destroy frisbee, however.
Sonic; speed harasses opponents (don't even wait for the opening), which leaves them vulnerable to projectiles and allows DHD to insert his own attacks. This is a more even match up as both parties will have to work on KOs, but Sonic's ability to quickly assist is a huge boon.
Little Mac; this is pretty much an assured win. DHD's superior grab means he can hold opponents for Mac's KO move, and the projectiles coupled with Mac's unbreakable punches make for a difficult to break defence. The fact Mac KOs on low damage and DHD does damage by the bucketloads means these two are a winning combination. Don't be surprised if you floor the competition. DHDs will have to be on point with rescue to prevent Little Mac getting aerial KO'd, though.
Mario/Luigi; assuming they stay off their fireballs (which destroy frisbee, interrupt can etc) and stick to power smash moves and keeping quick attacks, either character is a nice fair choice for DHD. They aren't as well suited to exploit DHDs advantages, but they aren't a bad choice, either. Luigi has a bigger advantage over Mario if his up-B accuracy is good: DHD's damage will make it so Luigi can KO early on.
Ryu; if Ryu users can keep patience, they'll find plenty of easy close range openings, and the damage done will mean Ryu gets an easy KO. Ryu seems a poor choice in comparison to Little Mac, however, especially as the projectiles of Ryu interferes with DHD's gameplan and the spinning kick will destroy/hit either.
Wario; probably the best choice next to Little Mac. Warios will receive a win-win situation, and there's plenty of reason why: opponents will have to deal with both projectiles and Wario's bike, and DHDs are in a fantastic position to easily destroy Wario's bike at a distance if it's denied to him (EG opposite ledge) - a can will suffice. The power moves of Wario gain from DHD's damage power, and a Wario chewing on an opponent gives enough time for DHD to forward smash A to fatality. DHDs next to Wario's bike can use it as an edge guarding tool and as an additional projectile, and the bike offers DHD protection. Even better - the fart can KO at high percents even in a low stage and as DHD often gets high percent opponents, this is another win-win.
Charizard; no prizes for guessing why, but his side-B means he can make head-way and easily kill high damage opponents. Alternating side-Bs between DHD and Charizard will often result in Charizard hitting a target. BOOM, off the screen. Don't expect him to assist DHD, though...
Worst character choices, and why
Another duck hunt duo; given the similarity of moves, and the lack of launching power, it means both characters can be beaten by shielding and can both hit the issue of KOing opponents who might have a dangerous combination of anti-projectile characters (EG Wario coupled with Dark Pit, or worse, Charizard and Pikachu). Never do this, ever!
[This applies even if DHD is your main man and you're both pros with DHD. You will find a good DHD with a semi-decent power users does better than two good DHDs because the punching power of power users allows early KOs.]
Samus; although Samus has some punching power, the projectiles interfere heavily with DHDs projectiles and produce horrible results: the opponents get a free game of nullified projectiles whilst you both get the fun of a projectile-free-esque game.
Zero suit samus; continuing with the subtle 'hate on samus' theme, zero suit samus is a poor choice, but for a different reason entirely: because her moves largely involve very high speed and jumping, she will find DHDs horizontal game to be hugely in conflict with her vertical game. Trying to grab Mario? Nope... DHD just interrupted it with a frisbee, sorry. Juggling in the air? Well, DHD has no approach options besides a can. Boom. Whoops. The speed game conflicts badly because samus has to wait on DHD to form an opening, or risk trying to form an opening herself only to find that slow frisbee or can just ruined it. Avoid if you can.
ROB; on the preface, seems like a great idea: he has projectiles, spinning moves and more spinning moves. The problem is, his spinning moves destroy and interfere with DHD's game, and especially that spinning top! An A-attack heavy ROB can work nicely (he has the power to launch), but it seems pointless to drop several techniques. His large size also makes him quite vulnerable to accidental can explosions. Sorry ROB, off switch for you.
Pikachu; whilst a nicely timed lightning bolt/frisbee alternation will frustrate most players, his slippery speed means Pikachu runs afoul of the projectile game: because the frisbee interrupts at specific points, and pikachu 'slides' slightly on exit, it often becomes Pikachu 'misses' the opponents held in the frisbee interrupt. His thunderbolt also blocks and deflects cans, and because most of his attacks involve being continually electrocuted, he destroys frisbees long before they reach the opponent. The small size and lack of punching power (Pikachu tends to juggle more than KO) means he's not the best match up.
Ness/Lucas; whilst on first appearance their ability to absorb damage seems great, Ness and Lucas are, at heart, projectile users (PK fire, thunder, freeze/flash etc), which means PK fire will block frisbees, thunder will be blocked by cans, gunmen and frisbees (if Ness, if Lucas he'll just destroy them instead), and who uses freeze/flash anyway? The absorb will rarely get used in a hectic fight, which means four of the PK team's moves are not that practical. They do have the capacity to do some nice launches (especially if DHD protects and they use PK thunder to setup) but they're not exploiting the advantages here.
Other characters vary. They can work or not work depending on how they're used.
Anyway, light coverage. I'm sure others will have much more useful information to add.
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