Sakurai Trying To Make As Little Cuts As Possible.

[LiteralGrill]

Toon Link would be kinda weird again, maybe a different version and not just Wind Waker one. Icies arent gonna be in the 3DS one for sure.

Magically, we get a braand new young version of link that we learn is coming from a brand new game :O

in my wildest dreams

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Toon Link would be kinda weird again, maybe a different version and not just Wind Waker one. Icies arent gonna be in the 3DS one for sure.

The two will have identical rosters. Sakurai has already stated this. Further "reduced to a certain degree," does not mean cut entirely. Nana's ai will probably suck more on the 3ds but that is probably it.

 

[[Corn]]

The two will have identical rosters. Sakurai has already stated this. Further "reduced to a certain degree," does not mean cut entirely. Nana's ai will probably suck more on the 3ds but that is probably it.

Icies will be cut for technical limitations on the 3DS for sure if they are in the Wii U game. DS will not be able to handle having that many players/ai at the same time. Having 2-3 IC already slightly lagged Brawl.

 

[Fandangox]

Toon Link would be kinda weird again, maybe a different version and not just Wind Waker one. Icies arent gonna be in the 3DS one for sure.

If IC won't be on the 3DS version then they won't be on the Wii U version either. Sakurai said both versions will have the same roster.

 

[[Corn]]

If IC won't be on the 3DS version then they won't be on the Wii U version either. Sakurai said both versions will have the same roster.

Give me a quote.

What he basically said was, "If the Wii U version has something that the 3DS cant handle, we will drop it and replace it with something else on the 3DS but keep it on the Wii U"

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Give me a quote.

What he basically said was, "If the Wii U version has something that the 3DS cant handle, we will drop it and replace it with something else on the 3DS but keep it on the Wii U"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQD1yJinzeQ listen to 1:18 of this video. And yes he did say that, but I don't think he was referring to whole characters. He even talked about reducing certain characters (notice he didn't say number of characters) to a degree so that they could stay in the game.

 

[Clogon]

However, exactly what you can customize remains a mystery. I inferred a sort of Pokemon Stadium situation, where you level up your characters in the handheld version before transferring them to the console version to battle. When presented with this idea, Sakurai considered it for a moment before stating, "Perhaps the best way to think of it is: it's not the strength of the attacks that change--their power--but the directionality of those attacks will change with customization." Read into that what you will.

Since we can customize the effects of attacks Clones are pretty much not needed.

Edit:
Forgot to link source:
http://www.gamespot.com/features/smashing-the-definition-of-smash-bros-6410475/

 

[Fandangox]

Give me a quote.

What he basically said was, "If the Wii U version has something that the 3DS cant handle, we will drop it and replace it with something else on the 3DS but keep it on the Wii U"

""The reality of the situation unfortunately is that there are certain limitations on the 3DS," Sakurai said. The 3DS and Wii U versions of the next Smash Bros will have the same library of characters."


http://kotaku.com/dont-expect-a-lot-of-third-party-characters-in-the-nex-513203533

 

[[Corn]]

""The reality of the situation unfortunately is that there are certain limitations on the 3DS," Sakurai said. The 3DS and Wii U versions of the next Smash Bros will have the same library of characters."


http://kotaku.com/dont-expect-a-lot-of-third-party-characters-in-the-nex-513203533

This appears to be later, and library can imply number, not the same.


The Wii U and 3DS versions of the game do not support any manner of cross-play between the two platforms, he said. Sakurai explained that, due to the stages that will be unique to each platform, the systems would be incompatible. And while the handheld and console versions of the next Super Smash Bros. will feature system-specific stages, the game's moves, characters and items will be "nearly identical."

Sakurai left himself an out on that explanation, however, saying that if there are items on the Wii U version that can't technically be accomplished on Nintendo 3DS, he'll leave them out of that version.

Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/14/44...ing?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This should clarify.

 

[Fandangox]

This appears to be later, and library can imply number, not the same.


The Wii U and 3DS versions of the game do not support any manner of cross-play between the two platforms, he said. Sakurai explained that, due to the stages that will be unique to each platform, the systems would be incompatible. And while the handheld and console versions of the next Super Smash Bros. will feature system-specific stages, the game's moves, characters and items will be "nearly identical."

Sakurai left himself an out on that explanation, however, saying that if there are items on the Wii U version that can't technically be accomplished on Nintendo 3DS, he'll leave them out of that version.

Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/14/44...ing?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

This should clarify.

He is talking about Items. You do realize you also quoted him stating that the game's Character/Moves will nearly be identical in that very same post.

If anything expect something like Olimar/Alph working as usual in the console version, but having less or non-visible (until used) Pikmin in the Handheld version.

 

[[Corn]]

He is talking about Items. You do realize you also quoted him stating that the game's Character/Moves will nearly be identical in that very same post.

If anything expect something like Olimar/Alph working as usual in the console version, but having less or non-visible (until used) Pikmin in the Handheld version.

I hope you realize that the word "features" is often translated as the word "items".

This has already happened a few times when he says things. They lead to extremely high expectations.

 

[Fandangox]

I hope you realize that the word "features" is often translated as the word "items".

This has already happened a few times when he says things. They lead to extremely high expectations.

What few times? I am keeping my expectations realistic. While it has been very vague wording, he has stated a few times that both games will have the same number/library. Why being intentionally vague about something he knows the fanbase is very demanding about?
Its probably mis-translation. Considering how serious Sakurai seems to take his work I am sure he would find a workaround to at least keeping both of the game's roster the same.

 

[[Corn]]

What few times? I am keeping my expectations realistic. While it has been very vague wording, he has stated a few times that both games will have the same number/library. Why being intentionally vague about something he knows the fanbase is very demanding about?
Its probably mis-translation. Considering how serious Sakurai seems to take his work I am sure he would find a workaround to at least keeping both of the game's roster the same.

I just said it could be a mistranslation. He already translated "airdodge" into "aircancel" which made everything think he meant wavedashing like abilities.

Having different movesets/abilities for the same character isnt really keeping the character. Transformation characters, Olimar, and Icies WILL have to have nearly seperate movesets and such from Wii U if they are included in the 3DS.

 

[Fandangox]

Having different movesets/abilities for the same character isnt really keeping the character. Transformation characters, Olimar, and Icies WILL have to have nearly seperate movesets and such from Wii U if they are included in the 3DS.

WILL? I don't think anything is set in stone yet. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Diddy Kong]

This MUST mean....

Spoiler

 

[Stupid Yoshii]

Toon Link would be kinda weird again, maybe a different version and not just Wind Waker one. Icies arent gonna be in the 3DS one for sure.

Yeah, like the Link Between Worlds version. It kind of sucks that the 3ds can't really handle the Ice Climbers.

 

[Mr.Showtime]

I say that we should talk about cuts everyday. Nothing but cuts. Hey guys let's start coming out with more rumors about cuts. Tomorrow let's talk about more cuts.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I say that we should talk about cuts everyday. Nothing but cuts. Hey guys let's start coming out with more rumors about cuts. Tomorrow let's talk about more cuts.

I'm feeling this.

I'd love to see an official cuts discussion thread, but I have a feeling the negativity involved with that, and how nasty it could become would have it closed soon enough. But it might be better then having tons of the same threads with slightly different things in them.

 

[Ray Robo]

I feel as though if Lucario and maybe PT will be cut for 1-2 different pokemon as there was an article about how they choose the pokemon to be in the smash bros game depending on popularity, movies, and the latest games. (For smash 4 that would be X and Y)

http://nintendoeverything.com/126067/how-pokemon-characters-are-chosen-for-smash-bros/

 

[Kon]

I think it's less possible they won't include characters because of technical problems. As we can see in the example of the Ice Climbers: Sakurai wants them in as veterans and they try to get them in. Still we can't deny that there is a small possibility they won't be in because of the problems while trying to include them.

I also think that it's less probable they would cut characters with a very similar moveset. I would rather say they would change the moveset instead of cutting the character. Changes in the movesets aren't unlikely as Bowser got changed and also Pit from Kid Icarus got an updated moveset.

The only cut I could really imagine is Olimar who would be replaced by Alph as Alph is one of the protagonists from Pikmin 3. Maybe ZSS will be replaced by a new metroid rep.

 

[Chauzu]

Hard to see Jiggs as anything but female.

Just saying.

 

[Norm]

From the interview to I get the sense that they're talking about all the smash bros games to date melee and brawl included. He's implying that not all of the characters to appear in the Smash bros series will not make a return in this one. I would assume when he says no to all characters retuning he referring to characters like pichu, Dr. Mario, Roy etc...

 

[Lemonwater]

I think it would make sense to make the roster a little bigger to accommodate newcomers while minimizing cuts.

I don't think we're going to get a roster that's 10 characters larger but I could be wrong. I think at least 5 characters will be cut from Brawl's roster, Pokemon Trainer counting as one of them.

 

[RedGamer]

Let the flame war over the most worthy for the seven remaining slots begin!

Two words: Captain. Falcon.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

 

[Fandangox]

New interview with Sakurai pretty much solidifies that both versions will have the exact same roster.

Fundamentally we’re going to have the same characters on both systems," said Sakurai. "If there was a character you couldn’t play on Wii U but you could play on 3DS, or vice versa, that’s rough for consumers.

He also explained that bringing back stages from Brawl will be slightly difficult in the 3DS version and that for some reason that also affects the Console version, despite Sakurai already stating that both versions will have dfferent stages. I personally don't like the 3DS version holding back the Wii U version, wish they were sort of more different experiences.

Source: http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1972435/super_smash_bros_the_difference_between_wii_u_3ds_versions.html

 

[Ulevo]

This topic interests me, so let's take a look at who's likely to get the axe.

If we eliminate the possibility of veteran characters being cut from the game (as defined by being in two games or more of the series) as well as the early confirmed roster, we come up with this list:

Wario
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Zerosuit
Metaknight
King Dedede
Olimar
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Lucas
Ike
R.O.B.
Snake
Sonic

Going down the list, I would say Wario is likely in. He was one of the main featured attractions in one of the opening trailers for Brawl, he has his own franchise series separate from Mario, and is a unique fleshed out character in his own right. Diddy Kong is in for sure, as Donkey Kong is one of Nintendo's big franchises, and Diddy Kong has been the side mascot alongside DK practically from day 1. Like Wario, he's a fleshed out character, and unlike the Mario family, he's not taking up that much more real estate. Metaknight, while problematic in his own right within the competitive Brawl universe, is a personal creation of Sakurai. While he might see a reimagining of his playstyle and moveset, he's far too popular and has too much immunity given he's one of Sakurai's children to get the axe. Dedede being the Bowser of Kirby and sharing the same credentials is no exception either. And finally while Sakurai has expressed the difficulties of dealing with third party ties for the sake of implementing foreign characters, Sonic's popularity and Segas strong and initimate ties to Nintendo solidify his spot in my mind.

Given this, we have this list.

Toon Link
Zerosuit
Olimar
Wolf
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Lucas
Ike
R.O.B.
Snake

Toon like I'm 99% sure is getting the axe. The Smash series has had criticism for clone characters since Melee's reveal of its full roster, and Young Link was cut from Melee in favor of Toon Link. On top of this, given that Toon Link is featured as a conductor on a train in one of the new featured stages in one of the trailers, and I think its safe to say he's gone.

Zerosuit Samus I think is more likely to make it in than not. I feel as though her inception was an attempt to expand the character roster while bringing more exposure to the Metroid universe. I also think that if they were to potentially make the transition from Samus to ZSS not require a Smash Ball, it would make her more accessible in the same way Zelda and Sheik are while making way for more characters. Though I don't think that's likely. All in all she was failry unique (albeit poorly designed gameplay wise), but I still feel her leaving the scene is a possibility if they are really hard pressed to find space because from a perspective of personification and not gameplay, ZSS and Samus are the same character, and the audience (casual or not) will see it like that too.

Olimar is only on this list due to popularity concerns. He has the right stuff to be brought back. He has a unique moveset and character design, he has his own franchise with multiple titles, and while he might not be one of the main Nintendo blockbusters, Sakurai isn't one for not using very niche character choices. *CoughG&WCough* This being said however, I feel he is likely to be the most unpopular character given his resume and candidacy. Prior to Brawls roster reveal, I don't think anyone would have predicted that he would have been a playable character to start with. I also think that Olimar's inclusion in Brawl was to try and expose Pikmin more to consumers than it was about bringing a classy new character in, but that's merely my speculation. I'm not fully convinced he's gone, but I think its possible.

I have Wolf on here partly because I don't think he was represented very well in Brawl, and overall was not a very interesting character inclusion. Looking at it from different angles, Wolf was disappointing. From a competitive players perspective, there were expectations of 'the third spacey', a new mechanical toy to play with and master. To say this fell short of what the competitive players may have been looking for is a large understatement, though this can't be entirely blamed on Wolf as a character since Brawl's engine and game design was abysmal. On a casual note, we got 'another character that shoots lasers with a reflector and roughly the same Up B.' While its true that they had different tool kits, what made Fox and Falco interesting in Melee even though they were aesthetically the same outside of texture was that their interactions with everything else while they played were vastly different while still feeling good. Wolfs gameplay did not feel crisp and properly fleshed out in to the same standards as the original two Star Fox characters, even if he had a more feral approach. I feel like a lot of this may just be bias on my end, but I think there was a niche Sakurai was trying to fill here and he just didn't quite do the job right. I also think that with the possibility of Crystal, though unlikely, Wolf could be replaceable. Either way, his inclusion in SB4 is still very real.

Pokemon Trainer's inclusion in Brawl looked like it was supposed to fit some very specific goals in mind. Ones that I think of are adding forms of nostalgia to the player, as well as finding ways of expanding the character roster artificially while still adhering to an arbitrary roster cap. Sakurai stated previously that there are problems with adding too many characters, and I think he knew this going in to Brawl's development quite well, which Pokemon Trainer was one of the ways to help cope with such an issue. I think with this in mind, it might be time to just address the problem directly, in which Pokemon Trainer will be sent packing. I'm going off on memory, but I also believe Brawl was released around the time Fire Red and Leaf Green were big too, so this may have been an attempt to increase game exposure and advertise the same way Olimar for Pikmin was, more so than being included as a legitimate long lasting character. There is also the fact that both Melee and Brawl have had a third 'seasonal' Pokemon included in the form of Mewtwo and Lucario, both of which were very unique and satisfying to play in their own right. With the talk of possibly bringing Mewtwo back (in his new form from X & Y I'd speculate), I also think this makes it quite cramped for Pokemon Trainer among the available seats for the Pokemon slots. Also, if Sakurai is beginning to care about individual character balance issues AT ALL (which I genuinely think he is), I think this would be a big hurdle.

Lucario is on this list soley because he was Mewtwo's 'seasonal' replacement. If the trend continues, we'll see a new one come in to replace Lucario. Also, there's talk of Mewtwo possibly being in from Sakurai. What this tells me is if Mewtwo is possibly on the table, then Lucario has already been sent back to his Pokeball. While he IS a unique character, and the Mario group kind of implies that popularity equals number of seats in the Smash house, I don't see him returning.

Ness and his franchise were much more niche than some of the other big title games being represented here, and I think it was actually quite surprising that a second Mother character made it in to Brawl. Though I attribute this more to Sakurai and Co. submitting to the demands of a larger roster from Melee to Brawl rather than Lucas deserving a spot. I also think its hard to represent Mother characters because all of them have very plain aesthetic appeals, which means including more than one begins to look displeasing. And although I don't follow the games myself, its my understanding that neither character has followed their traditional attacks or moves from the games they originated from. Lucas could have easily just been a skin swap for Lucas, and outside of his inclusion in Brawl, he was not very interesting or popular.

Ike was a good character. He solved the problem Roy had from Melee, and established his own gameplay individuality from Marth. He was a popular character. He felt GOOD to play. Swinging that sword around and clubbing people to death? Hell yeah. And although Sakurai likes to treat Fire Emblem characters outside of Marth as seasonal replacements ala Mewtwo and Lucario, I would much rather see him stay. That said, its for the very reason that Roy was replaced with Ike that I feel his odds are chancy. I FEEL like he has a strong chance to still make it in, though that me be being hopeful and optimistic. Still, he has a chance to get cut.

I actually don't think R.O.B. will be cut. Like Game & Watch, he's made a home for himself in the Smash Bros universe exclusively, and he was a really great character to play. I would almost say he's one of Sakurai and Co.'s children much in the same way Kirby and friends are, as without Smash, most of us wouldn't even know what these two characters were. However, between Game & Watch and R.O.B., the former has been around longer, and if space is really tight for cuts and Sakurai brings his traiditional 'oddball' character in to SB4, R.O.B. might be opted out. While some people might suggest that Wii Fit Trainer and The Villager kind of represent those oddball roster choices (and I agree its possible), both of those are relatively new. Sakurai has a tendency to choose very prehistoric choices. Another thing to think about is that R.O.B.'s story was tied to Subspace Emissary, which is being completely ditched in the new title. I think his chances are strong, but we'll see how it plays out.

Snake, simply put, does not feel like a Smash Bros character. His realism and tone are just a little too much, and it was one of the many things about Brawl from Melee that felt just 'not quite right.' One look at his moveset and you can tell it was littered with confusion as to how to incorporate a character that assassinates and kills people in to a rated E for everyone environment. Sakurai went jumped through a lot of hoops to get Snake in. Not just gameplay wise either, but I'd also assume from a third party perspective as well. Between third party candidates being limited going forward, Sonic and Megaman being SUPER popular to the point of being included almost exclusively on popularity alone, gameplay and design problems, inappropriate context for the characters inclusion in the environment, and just feeling weird, I don't foresee Snake being in the next instalment. I'm not complaining either.

 

[Fandangox]

If Snake is not in the game it will be simply because of License issues. If the talks of cuts represents a big threat to some existing characters then I can see Sakurai deciding that going through the hoops of licensing a third party character might not be worth the time.

It is really up to Kojima/Sakurai if Snake is back again. Snake fitted right into the universe. While being a "Mature" series The Metal Gear games are really goofy and I personally think he felt perfect for Smash.

On the issue of it killing and assasinating people I don't think that was never an issue. The problem was that in MGS the killings were a bit more graphic, but that's why he got a moveset based on explosive weapons instead of more traditional guns, so it'd look more over the top.

 

[Ulevo]

If Snake is not in the game it will be simply because of License issues. If the talks of cuts represents a big threat to some existing characters then I can see Sakurai deciding that going through the hoops of licensing a third party character might not be worth the time.

It is really up to Kojima/Sakurai if Snake is back again. Snake fitted right into the universe. While being a "Mature" series The Metal Gear games are really goofy and I personally think he felt perfect for Smash.

On the issue of it killing and assasinating people I don't think that was never an issue. The problem was that in MGS the killings were a bit more graphic, but that's why he got a moveset based on explosive weapons instead of more traditional guns, so it'd look more over the top.

My point was that from an aesthetic and gameplay point of view, Snake's moveset was pretty bad. And I think that is reflective of Sakurai's struggle to fit a character in who, in another game and environment, would operate differently.

 

[Fandangox]

My point was that from an aesthetic and gameplay point of view, Snake's moveset was pretty bad. And I think that is reflective of Sakurai's struggle to fit a character in who, in another game and environment, would operate differently.

How was his moveset bad gameplay wise? This is not a problem specific to Snake, crossover fighting games will usually face this problem since they are adapting characters from multiple genres to a fighting one.

Aesthetically I thought it made sense, those are all weapons Snake have used, there were some oddballs like his Up Tilt and and Up B, but I think from a design-point of his moveset made sense considering the character.

 

[Ulevo]

The Utilt is the main offender here, but the way he used his aerial moves also for combat were very cumbersome and didn't make a lot of sense, both from a Smash perspective as well as from a Solid Snake perspective. How does using a forward air axe kick on a character that feels heavy to use (who shouldn't feel heavy to use) propel himself up in the air? Is there really a reason for a four kick duration of his neutral or down air? When will you be in the air that long to start with? The only reason to humor that question with an answer is because Brawls floaty engine allowed for it, which also had its own list of gameplay problems and consequences. Aesthetically he was a mess all over the place, like the interaction between his target and him during a forward throw, how he would keep a near static pose while holding a hand grenade before throwing it, or how digging a deeper hole while charging a down smash is supposed to feedback to the player that its going to make a mine more powerful. While Smash is known for crazy things and being its own animal, that doesn't absolve it the importance of consistency and relative realistic expectations from what a player would be familiar with in the realm of a Smash game.

Also, the prospect of balancing around a character that relies on high damage, high knock back, large hit box moves like hand grenades and proximity mines in a fighting game (a free for all no less) is fairly daunting, hard to do, and with how it was done not very engaging or fun. While some of this has to do with the physics of Brawls engine, it still is partly due to problems Snake had.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sakurai Trying To Make As Few Cuts As Possible

/grammarnazi

 

[RedGamer]

Flame wars over someone other the the captain? Madness! The falcon is manly!! MANLY, I TELL YOU!!!

 

[[Corn]]

How was his moveset bad gameplay wise? This is not a problem specific to Snake, crossover fighting games will usually face this problem since they are adapting characters from multiple genres to a fighting one.

Aesthetically I thought it made sense, those are all weapons Snake have used, there were some oddballs like his Up Tilt and and Up B, but I think from a design-point of his moveset made sense considering the character.

Well, for starters he was a very unpolished character besides from voicelines and special moves. Literally all his normal moves have phantom hitboxes and odd animations.
He didnt really have anything unique as normals either, most unique normal he had was that dtilt and dashattack which were very funny and fit. All of his special moves were fantasticly done.

Basically, if they fix his phantom hitboxes and make Snake's normals a bit more like him (Ergo slashing with a small knife or something for tilts), I see no reason for the character not to return.

 

[Crimson Wolf]

That's good news for sure. I'm not surprised at previously cut characters not coming back though. We will probably see 1 or 2 of them come back in some other form though.

Yeah, like Charizard in the Poké Ball item again... DX He is my main in Brawl. :/

 

[Fandangox]

Well, for starters he was a very unpolished character besides from voicelines and special moves. Literally all his normal moves have phantom hitboxes and odd animations.
He didnt really have anything unique as normals either, most unique normal he had was that dtilt and dashattack which were very funny and fit. All of his special moves were fantasticly done.

Basically, if they fix his phantom hitboxes and make Snake's normals a bit more like him (Ergo slashing with a small knife or something for tilts), I see no reason for the character not to return.

I forgot about the Phamton hitboxes, I guess that makes sense.
However I think I remember hearing something as to why knives weren't in the game opposed to swords, but that was long ago.