Sakurai talks about Duck Hunt inclusion , 8-Player Smash originally planned for Melee, and more

[S_B]

Just put a single Ice Climber in. 4 Popo and 4 Nana costumes. Give them some kind of bonus in team battles. Done.

Or they could've given them the duck hunt treatment (ie they ARE one character) except that, after 100% damage, Nana automatically KOs or something.

 

[S_B]

I went ahead and recorded an 8 Olimar match with High pokeballs/ATs:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67091205/olimarz.mp4

It actually got even crazier after this with no lag issues whatsoever. Again, it was the 3DS that killed the ICs, not 8 player smash.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Ice Climbers have completely created laggy situations on every game they've been playable. The Wii U would not be able to easily handle 8 of them at top framerate. Yes, of course they would've been an issue. Not enough to disable them outside of online, but it's not like online 8 Player had a real chance. Too much lag/framerate issues, which the game already does have online on he Wii U version. Just let it go, neither had a good chance of happening. We're talking about a system that never could decently handle it. It has nothing to do with Nintendo specifically, the Wii U just didn't have that kind of power. The 3DS is constantly cited as having better online too. That says a lot.

And no there has not. But actually facts have shown the 3DS could not handle them, and that the Wii U has severe lag online still. There's just no way they would've worked well. And maybe you need to seriously read better. Nobody said they could not "work", just that they could not work at a reasonable framerate/without lag, as the system clearly cannot handle it. Melee very quickly lagged with 4 Ice Climbers. Doubling that combined with tons of stuff happening onscreen is going to lag a weaker system like the Wii U. Not even a contest. In addition, they disabled a lot of stuff for 8-Player Smash. Coin Mode is high proof of this lag issue. That's tons of coins going onscreen. If it "wasn't an issue", it'd be enabled. While it's anecdotal evidence, obviously, it's the only logical explanation we'll get outside of Sakurai's own words. People are assuming it due to the lag they know of heavily too. Not actually unjustified to think too much happening onscreen will lag the system(as it has in every game since without a doubt).

Oh my god look how laggy this is! But the background is so static. How is this possible?
Yeah I'll just grab my grain of salt. And gee, maybe laggy online could be a cause of connection issues. Yeah not all my matches are perfect online but I've had far less lag than you claim everyone's let on.

 

[S_B]

Oh my god look how laggy this is! But the background is so static. How is this possible?
Yeah I'll just grab my grain of salt. And gee, maybe laggy online could be a cause of connection issues. Yeah not all my matches are perfect online but I've had far less lag than you claim everyone's let on.

Also, online lag is a result of people having crappy connections or too many router hops. It's only transmitting positional data and whatnot. Everything else happens locally on the Wii U.

If the power of the Wii U can handle 8 olimars, 24 pikmin, ATs and pokemon doing their thing at the same time, it could handle 8 ICs, no problem.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Also, online lag is a result of people having crappy connections or too many router hops. It's only transmitting positional data and whatnot. Everything else happens locally on the Wii U.

If the power of the Wii U can handle 8 olimars, 24 pikmin, ATs and pokemon doing their thing at the same time, it could handle 8 ICs, no problem.

Yeah I don't doubt it.
Now consider this: Ice Climbers were cut for two reasons, ***** ass 3DS and low priority. Now, going back to the article that this thread is about, why would Ice Climbers be an obstacle for 8 Player Smash if they had low priority? Like the article says, the obstacles were stage related. Sure, they could have been cut because of 8 Player Smash, but it has NEVER been officially stated to be so. The only official word is that "They were working properly on Wii U". End of statement. That's the official word until stated otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone who seriously uses Olimar's PIkmin as a counterargument has no idea how the Ice Climbers work.

The Pikmin are basically glorified items that follow Olimar around. Nana is literally a second character following Popo. And before anyone has to bright idea to counter with Rosalina, Luma and Nana are nowhere near the same thing.
The game may be capable of running 8 characters at a time, but 16 is another story.

"They were working properly on Wii U". End of statement. That's the official word until stated otherwise.

That only means they could actually function as they are whereas the 3DS couldn't even run them PERIOD.
That has no bearing on whether or not they could work in modes such as 8-Player Smash, considering it's very likely they were scrapped before they could be put to test due to not even being possible on the 3DS.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Anyone who seriously uses Olimar's PIkmin as a counterargument has no idea how the Ice Climbers work.

The Pikmin are basically glorified items that follow Olimar around. Nana is literally a second character following Popo. And before anyone has to bright idea to counter with Rosalina, Luma and Nana are nowhere near the same thing.
The game may be capable of running 8 characters at a time, but 16 is another story.


That only means they could actually function as they are whereas the 3DS couldn't even run them PERIOD.
That has no bearing on whether or not they could work in modes such as 8-Player Smash, considering it's very likely they were scrapped before they could be put to test due to not even being possible on the 3DS.

I suppose that could be true. But we don't know when they were scrapped. What makes your word more valid than mine, hm?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Anyone who seriously uses Olimar's PIkmin as a counterargument has no idea how the Ice Climbers work.

Indeed. I'm tired of hearing anyone compare them. Pikmin are about as intelligent as Bob-Ombs, if not less so, since they can't move on their own. Nana was basically Master Hand levels of programming, if not more.

The Pikmin are basically glorified items that follow Olimar around. Nana is literally a second character following Popo. And before anyone has to bright idea to counter with Rosalina, Luma and Nana are nowhere near the same thing.
The game may be capable of running 8 characters at a time, but 16 is another story.

This. Luma appears to be a little more intelligent than the Pikmin, but not by much. Mostly because the Pikmin do a quick attack and stop. Luma does a bit more than normal. That, and the mirrored attacks and respawns require more programming. Also, we know for a fact characters were remade for the 3DS version too. This means that Luma was likely more intelligent originally, but had to be dumbed down. Also, it's easy for 24 Items on the Wii U version, those that do very little and aren't even as heavily programmed as a good number of Pokemon(say, Deoxys). They do a tiny attack. This is not going to lag the system.

That only means they could actually function as they are whereas the 3DS couldn't even run them PERIOD.
That has no bearing on whether or not they could work in modes such as 8-Player Smash, considering it's very likely they were scrapped before they could be put to test due to not even being possible on the 3DS.

We have no way to know when IC's were taken out. What we can easily say is that there is no way they would've ran well on 8-Player Smash. They cause far more lag than any other character since they're literally two full characters at once. Nana's AI is effectively a second computer. Put 16 characters at once on the screen as if a human was playing them and the game will lag. Especially if computers, as a human is less of an issue since they don't have to move much. Computers however have tons of programming, and with immensely high AI, well...

 

[Deleted member]

I suppose that could be true. But we don't know when they were scrapped. What makes your word more valid than mine, hm?

We have no way to know when IC's were taken out.

I didn't say we did. What I said is that it's likely that they were scrapped before they could be tested for 8-Player as a result of not being able to properly function on the 3DS. We do know that by July 3rd of last year, there were issues in regards to the Ice Climbers on the 3DS made apparent.

What we can easily say is that there is no way they would've ran well on 8-Player Smash. They cause far more lag than any other character since they're literally two full characters at once. Nana's AI is effectively a second computer. Put 16 characters at once on the screen as if a human was playing them and the game will lag. Especially if computers, as a human is less of an issue since they don't have to move much. Computers however have tons of programming, and with immensely high AI, well...

This was more or less my main point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn't say we did. What I said is that it's likely that they were scrapped before they could be tested for 8-Player as a result of not being able to properly function on the 3DS. We do know that by July 3rd of last year, there were issues in regards to the Ice Climbers on the 3DS made apparent.

Good point. This could be why he delayed the game a bit too. He had more work to do, and it clearly wasn't enough.

This was more or less my main point.

Right.

 

[S_B]

Anyone who seriously uses Olimar's PIkmin as a counterargument has no idea how the Ice Climbers work.

Okay, have some more examples...

Here's Deus Ex Human Revolution on Wii U where, in addition to the game functioning in three dimensions, there can be 20+ AI-controlled enemies trying to kill you at once, and that includes making decisions like taking cover, lobbing grenades, reacting to changes in the player's position, etc.

http://www.gamestop.com/wii-u/games/deus-ex-human-revolution-directors-cut/110687

Are you arguing that 8 level 4 CPUs are going to over tax the Wii U, when the Wii U can handle 3X that number of AIs that need to calculate in 3 dimensions instead of just 2 (I've played DEHR: enemies will climb to high ground to gain the advantage on you if you let them)?

It had to be the 3DS. The SSB AI isn't so complicated that it could cause these kinds of issues unless you're dealing with a VERY weak system. The Wii U is running games that are far too processor intensive for this to have given it problems.

And as was pointed out, there were SIX sets of ICs running on the GC, a 13 year old system. Think the Wii U really can't handle 2 more?

 

[Deleted member]

Linking to completely unrelated games kills any argument attempted to be made.
I could turn around and go "Monster Hunter and Samurai Warriors works on 3DS despite having a ****ton happening all at once, why couldn't the 3DS handle the damn Ice Climbers or even 8-Player Smash?", but clearly, the presented cases are nowhere near comparable to each other.

And you really think that video that shows five sets of Ice Climbers (not six) where there was clearly some lag issues helps prove a point? Hell, you don't even need to use an Action Replay to show these lag issues; just play on Fountain of Dreams with all four players being the Ice Climbers. With just the reflections on the water, framerate experiences some drops.
Oh, the Wii U system is "stronger", so it should be able to handle it better? Then why was 8-Player Smash "just barely" achievable?

 

[Deleted member]

I kinda figured due to how many characters are in the Multi-Man modes that they may have been thinking of 5 players at least back in the day.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Limited stage selection and not wanting to invest too much time in making stages that are too big for regular Smash. Y'know, like the frigging article says!
Or how about this:
http://t.joystiq.com/all/2014-09-17-ice-climbers-wont-be-in-the-new-smash-bros-and-heres-why#1
Oh look, it's the article of why Ice Climbers aren't in Smash 4.
Here's an excerpt:

Sakurai notes, via a Nintendo Everything translation, that the Ice Climbers were up and running in the Wii U version of Super Smash Bros, but the 3DS lacked the hardware horsepower to render the team, making a roster cut necessary.

Gee look at that, "up and running on the Wii U". That totally means that they weren't working, huh.
No where has it been OFFICIALLY said that IceClimbers and 8 Player Smash didn't work together. Enough of this bull**** white-knighting of "oh it's not entirely the 3DS's fault" when it clearly was!

 

[SmashShadow]

It was clearly the 3DS's limitations that caused their exclusion. 8-player smash could have clearly been circumvented by making Ice Climbers not playable in that mode. Heck, Mii Fighters aren't allowed in every mode and not every stage was allowed for 8-player. Those are already two examples of exclusion and yet those characters and stages were still kept in the game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It was clearly the 3DS's limitations that caused their exclusion. 8-player smash could have clearly been circumvented by making Ice Climbers not playable in that mode. Heck, Mii Fighters aren't allowed in every mode and not every stage was allowed for 8-player. Those are already two examples of exclusion and yet those characters and stages were still kept in the game.

I agree with this. I'm glad the 3DS version exists and can deal with their exclusion, but removing them from modes they cause issues in is fair too. Keep in mind that Coin Mode is also disabled in 8-Player Smash. That's a crapton going onscreen, so...

It'd be interesting to know if they ever got tested on it. I can deal with anyone being unable to be in a mode now. After the Mii Fighters online, course restriction in 8-Player Smash...

 

[S_B]

Linking to completely unrelated games kills any argument attempted to be made.

Oh, are we setting down the rules of argument? Then being called "GoldenYuiitusin" makes you automatically wrong. Checkmate.

Seriously, though, the 3DS, being a HANDHELD, is dramatically worse off than the Wii U in power...

3DS specs:
CPU Dual-Core ARM11 MPCore, single-core ARM9
Memory 128 MB FCRAM, 6 MB VRAM
Video DMP PICA200 GPU

Wii U specs:
CPU 1.24 GHz Tri-Core IBM PowerPC "Espresso"
Memory 2 GB DDR3
Video 550 MHz AMD Radeon "Latte" 550 MHz, 32 MB VRAM

That's not even in the same console generation. It's basically a miracle the 3DS can run SSB at all...

And here's the Wii's specs for good measure:
CPU IBM PowerPC "Broadway" 729 MHz
Graphics ATI "Hollywood" 243 MHz, 24 MB VRAM

Which is more likely to have killed the ICs? The console that could just barely handle 4 player gameplay, has issues with pikmin desyncing and has tons of online lag, or the console that runs the game smoothly without issue, even with 8 player smash and tons upon tons of crap happening on screen?

If Sakurai hadn't insisted upon keeping the two rosters the same, I think we'd have seen the ICs on the Wii U version.

Tell you what: if you can find me a video of offline play in which the game is experiencing framerate/slowdown issues, you might have a valid argument.

Until then, all signs point to the 3DS being the end of the ICs (and the chorus kids, before they even made it...).

 

[Deleted member]

Limited stage selection and not wanting to invest too much time in making stages that are too big for regular Smash. Y'know, like the frigging article says!

Read the article again.
Nowhere was what you said given as reasoning as to why 8-Player Smash was just barely achievable. (In fact, a reason isn't expressly given; you have to apply basic logic to deduce it)
Hell, nowhere in the article was the point of "investing too much time in making stages too big for regular Smash" even made.
All the article states in regards to limiting the stage selection (and changing stage gimmicks such as removing the bosses) is that it's what the mode does.

Next time you want claim points "like the frigging article says", actually know what the frigging article says.

Or how about this:
http://t.joystiq.com/all/2014-09-17-ice-climbers-wont-be-in-the-new-smash-bros-and-heres-why#1
Oh look, it's the article of why Ice Climbers aren't in Smash 4.
Here's an excerpt:

Gee look at that, "up and running on the Wii U". That totally means that they weren't working, huh.
No where has it been OFFICIALLY said that IceClimbers and 8 Player Smash didn't work together. Enough of this bull**** white-knighting of "oh it's not entirely the 3DS's fault" when it clearly was!

First, take a chill pill.
Second, realize that:
a. I never claimed that they didn't work period. Just that they very likely did not/would not (if they were axed before they could even be tested for the mode) function properly on 8-Player Smash without dropping the framerate based on pure, simple logic. With the Climbers in the variable, it would've potentially turned into a 9-16 character match, and having 8 already was a challenge.

b. As I've already stated, all what Sakurai said about the Ice Climbers means is that they were able to be run as a two-character team as they always have on the Wii U while the 3DS didn't have enough power to run both Climbers at the same time. That doesn't mean they didn't present any issues on the Wii U whatsoever.

c. I actually haven't been arguing that 8-Player Smash is a reason the Ice Climbers were cut. In fact, I'm on the other side of the spectrum; 8-Player Smash wouldn't have been implemented if the Climbers weren't. Anyone who can apply basic logic can understand why.

d. You have conveniently ignored the other stated reasoning for why the Ice Climbers were cut. That characters from franchises that are unlikely to have a future installment were put lower in priority. Being unable to function on the 3DS was only the straw that broke the camel's back. (The 3DS couldn't handle Zelda/Sheik either, yet they were merely retooled as singular characters instead of scrapped altogether.)
Let's face it; before their Melee debut, Ice Climber had a single un-noteworthy title within the span of 16 years. It's been another 13 years since, and there has been nothing in regards to a potential sequel. It's not even like other forgotten relics such as Balloon Fight, R.O.B., Clu Clu Land, Duck Hunt, Murasame Castle, etc. where games outside Smash revive them either in spirit, guest appearances, or cameos; Smash was literally the only thing keeping the franchise on life-support. So naturally, it was less of a pressing matter to keep the Ice Climbers or retool them into an upgraded "SoPo" with Nana functioning like female Robin, female Villager, male WFT, Alph, etc. when they couldn't function as a team.

Third, learn what white-knighting actually is. The sheer fact you pull the "white knight" card because people dare to (justifiably) see more than just one factor involved reeks of pure, unadulterated troll. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and will give you a chance to show me you aren't what you portray yourself as.

Oh, are we setting down the rules of argument? Then being called "GoldenYuiitusin" makes you automatically wrong. Checkmate.

As for you, you lost any reason for me to take you even remotely seriously. I gave a supporting point which ties to my statement that you actively chose to ignore. You went straight into some hybrid of a red herring fallacy and a straw man fallacy.

EDIT: Even taking time and looking at the rest of your argument, you continue to prove to me that you have no idea how the Ice Climbers function and instead focus on "OMG THE SPECS" "OMG STUFF HAPPENIN' ON SCREEN ALL AT ONCE" to attempt to make your point actually look decent. Yeah, not going to take you seriously and just set you to "ignore".

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Read the article again.
Nowhere was what you said given as reasoning as to why 8-Player Smash was just barely achievable. (In fact, a reason isn't expressly given; you have to apply basic logic to deduce it)
Hell, nowhere in the article was the point of "investing too much time in making stages too big for regular Smash" even made.
All the article states in regards to limiting the stage selection (and changing stage gimmicks such as removing the bosses) is that it's what the mode does.

Next time you want claim points "like the frigging article says", actually know what the frigging article says.




First, take a chill pill.
Second, realize that:
a. I never claimed that they didn't work period. Just that they very likely did not/would not (if they were axed before they could even be tested for the mode) function properly on 8-Player Smash without dropping the framerate based on pure, simple logic. With the Climbers in the variable, it would've potentially turned into a 9-16 character match, and having 8 already was a challenge.

b. As I've already stated, all what Sakurai said about the Ice Climbers means is that they were able to be run as a two-character team as they always have on the Wii U while the 3DS didn't have enough power to run both Climbers at the same time. That doesn't mean they didn't present any issues on the Wii U whatsoever.

c. I actually haven't been arguing that 8-Player Smash is a reason the Ice Climbers were cut. In fact, I'm on the other side of the spectrum; 8-Player Smash wouldn't have been implemented if the Climbers weren't. Anyone who can apply basic logic can understand why.

d. You have conveniently ignored the other stated reasoning for why the Ice Climbers were cut. That characters from franchises that are unlikely to have a future installment were put lower in priority. Being unable to function on the 3DS was only the straw that broke the camel's back. (The 3DS couldn't handle Zelda/Sheik either, yet they were merely retooled as singular characters instead of scrapped altogether.)
Let's face it; before their Melee debut, Ice Climber had a single un-noteworthy title within the span of 16 years. It's been another 13 years since, and there has been nothing in regards to a potential sequel. It's not even like other forgotten relics such as Balloon Fight, R.O.B., Clu Clu Land, Duck Hunt, Murasame Castle, etc. where games outside Smash revive them either in spirit, guest appearances, or cameos; Smash was literally the only thing keeping the franchise on life-support. So naturally, it was less of a pressing matter to keep the Ice Climbers or retool them into an upgraded "SoPo" with Nana functioning like female Robin, female Villager, male WFT, Alph, etc. when they couldn't function as a team.

Third, learn what white-knighting actually is. The sheer fact you pull the "white knight" card because people dare to (justifiably) see more than just one factor involved reeks of pure, unadulterated troll. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and will give you a chance to show me you aren't what you portray yourself as.


As for you, you lost any reason for me to take you even remotely seriously. I gave a supporting point which ties to my statement that you actively chose to ignore. You went straight into some hybrid of a red herring fallacy and a straw man fallacy.

Fair enough. It's a new day and I will take that chill pill.

For the A,B,and C: We don't know if IC and 8 Players didn't mix. Maybe they didn't work or it wasn't even made before they were cut. But going by what we do know, nothing suggests that it was an issue. Of course Sakurai could just as easily announce tomorrow that there were issues. In that case, I'll gladly eat my words and shut up about it.
I like @ SmashShadow 's suggestion of having Ice Climbers limited in 8 Players if need be. With so many limitations online and limited 8 Player stages, what's one character? It's a rare occurrence that I've seen 4 Ice Climbers at once. Even trying to find this video here-

- took a bit of searching around. I don't think it's very likely that 8 people simultaneously play as Ice Climbers except for experimentation's sake. If the limitation were needed, so be it, but as of now we know nothing about it.

D: First, their priority wouldn't have been in question without the 3DS limitations. Smash was really all they had, which is what makes the cut more devastating for fans of the character and the odd few who actually enjoyed the NES game. I suppose they're more of a vocal minority kind of thing.

Okay maybe "white knight" was a bit excessive. But all I see is people jumping to the slightest hint of Wii U issues and pointing fingers saying "See, the Wii U had problems with Ice Climbers too" and it just reeks of desperation. I had no intention of being a troll but I suppose my heated temper made it come off that way, therefore I apologize. If I still come off as a troll to you, that's none of my concern.

 

[HerrAlex]

Am I the only one who's actually experienced frame dropping in 8 Player-Smash? I played team battle (2v2v2v2) on Palutena's Temple with an amiibo and 6 CPUs with all items turned on to high frequency. When the screen stretched out far and almost everyone were using items I noticed a bit of lag here and there. Maybe it dropped to 40-ish for a second or so but it was absolutely not a problem since it wasn't much and still playable.

 

[Deleted member]

Fair enough. It's a new day and I will take that chill pill.

For the A,B,and C: We don't know if IC and 8 Players didn't mix. Maybe they didn't work or it wasn't even made before they were cut. But going by what we do know, nothing suggests that it was an issue. Of course Sakurai could just as easily announce tomorrow that there were issues. In that case, I'll gladly eat my words and shut up about it.

That is true. We don't know for sure. And as it rests, we may never get a direct answer about it.
Be that as it may, given the circumstances regarding how the Ice Climbers work and how 8-Player Smash was a challenge in itself, it's a pretty safe bet that there'd be some issues to be addressed on the hypothetical that the Climbers would just be Wii U exclusive.

I like @ SmashShadow 's suggestion of having Ice Climbers limited in 8 Players if need be. With so many limitations online and limited 8 Player stages, what's one character? It's a rare occurrence that I've seen 4 Ice Climbers at once. Even trying to find this video here-

- took a bit of searching around. I don't think it's very likely that 8 people simultaneously play as Ice Climbers except for experimentation's sake. If the limitation were needed, so be it, but as of now we know nothing about it.

On paper (or text, technically), that would be a reasonable idea based on the same reasoning used for the limited stage options and alterations. However, going through Sakurai's need to give everyone equality character-wise (which factored in the Ice Climbers being cut in the first place), the concept of prohibiting the usage of the Ice Climbers (or limiting how many players can play as them) seems like something Sakurai would actively avoid and just cut 8-Player altogether (or lower it to 6 if 6 worked fine). While the occurrence of an Ice Climber FFA is admittedly rather rare, that sort of thing is still looked at within debugging.

I mean yes, Miis are not allowed online With Anyone, though it could be argued they are special cases given that they're custom-oriented (in which customized characters in general are not allowed), and the whole concept of them able to be "anyone" raising a few potential issues, some stated ("bullying", "not fun if it's based off someone you don't know", "copyright free-for-all"), some not but easily speculated (anonymity, inappropriate/offensive Miis such as the common penis-face and Hilter).

D: First, their priority wouldn't have been in question without the 3DS limitations. Smash was really all they had, which is what makes the cut more devastating for fans of the character and the odd few who actually enjoyed the NES game. I suppose they're more of a vocal minority kind of thing.

Their priority still would have been low. It's just without the 3DS limitations, there wouldn't be any extraneous reasoning that could've possibly resulted in their removal unless time became an issue. And judging by how they at least were made functional on the Wii U, time would have not been an issue.
If their priority wasn't low, it raises the question of why Sakurai didn't just turn the Ice Climbers into Ice Climber and retool Popo as a solo fighter (and have Nana be half of his palettes) like how Zelda/Sheik and Samus/Zero Suit were separated. Or more relevantly, like how Diddy & Dixie were planned as a team in Brawl, but when it wouldn't function right, Diddy was made solo.

Okay maybe "white knight" was a bit excessive. But all I see is people jumping to the slightest hint of Wii U issues and pointing fingers saying "See, the Wii U had problems with Ice Climbers too" and it just reeks of desperation. I had no intention of being a troll but I suppose my heated temper made it come off that way, therefore I apologize. If I still come off as a troll to you, that's none of my concern.

You've actually redeemed yourself as far as I can see. Apology accepted.

 

[S_B]

As for you, you lost any reason for me to take you even remotely seriously. I gave a supporting point which ties to my statement that you actively chose to ignore. You went straight into some hybrid of a red herring fallacy and a straw man fallacy.

When you demonstrate that you have no idea what a red herring, straw man or even a "fallacy" are, you may as well just change your signature to a banner that says "Don't take me srsly".

EDIT: Even taking time and looking at the rest of your argument, you continue to prove to me that you have no idea how the Ice Climbers function and instead focus on "OMG THE SPECS" "OMG STUFF HAPPENIN' ON SCREEN ALL AT ONCE" to attempt to make your point actually look decent. Yeah, not going to take you seriously and just set you to "ignore".

Do you know how computers work? Do you know anything about cores, processor cycles, bandwidth, etc.?

Let me make this real simple for you: the more of the things I mentioned in the last sentence that a computer has, the more it is capable of doing simultaneously.

A powerful enough system will be capable of handling 8 pairs of ICs (including the AI controlled partners) with no slowdown. A system that is too weak will not. Simple as that. There's no mystery here.

Beyond that, as a number of people pointed out in this thread, even IF the Wii U would've had serious problems, there's nothing stopping them from:
-Limiting the ICs to certain stages in 8 player smash
-Limiting the game to a certain number of ICs in an 8 player match
-Limiting the number of items that appear on a stage in an 8 player match

And then there's this:

Sakurai notes, via a Nintendo Everything translation, that the Ice Climbers were up and running in the Wii U version of Super Smash Bros,but the 3DS lacked the hardware horsepower to render the team, making a roster cut necessary.

It's reasonable to assume that the ICs never even MADE IT to the point in development where 8 player smash began because they were scrapped early on because of the 3DS.

So no, 8 player smash didn't kill the ICs, the 3DS did, and if Sakurai hadn't insisted upon making the rosters the same, I'm guessing we'd see the ICs in the Wii U version.

It's one thing to restrict multi-characters from 8 player mode. It's another thing entirely when they cannot even function properly in the normal game, period...

 

[ryuu seika]

Just going to say, Melee had serious lag issues when running 2 AI IC players against 2 human ones (4 IC pairs total) and they left them in. I therefore see no reason why them slowing down 8 player would be considered cause for removal.

 

[S_B]

Just going to say, Melee had serious lag issues when running 2 AI IC players against 2 human ones (4 IC pairs total) and they left them in. I therefore see no reason why them slowing down 8 player would be considered cause for removal.

You know, that's the other thing...

SSB64 lagged like crazy when you used a FIRE FLOWER, ffs!

I guess the real question is not whether or not the ICs would have caused lag in the Wii U version but whether they would've caused the game to not function properly and I can't imagine even 8 ICs BREAKING the Wii U.

The 3DS? Sure, I can see 4 ICs doing that easily...

 

[Rajikaru]

Just going to say, Melee had serious lag issues when running 2 AI IC players against 2 human ones (4 IC pairs total) and they left them in. I therefore see no reason why them slowing down 8 player would be considered cause for removal.

It's because they didn't work on Smash 3DS. I feel like people that keep bringing up "Older games could run x or couldnt run x but were kept in anyways" don't realize that at this point pretty much nobody is actually making the claim "IC weren't kept in because x".

 

[ryuu seika]

It's because they didn't work on Smash 3DS. I feel like people that keep bringing up "Older games could run x or couldnt run x but were kept in anyways" don't realize that at this point pretty much nobody is actually making the claim "IC weren't kept in because x".

We all know the 3DS held back the Wii U version, despite Sakurai's promises to the contrary. I'm just pointing out to people why the claims that 8 player smash could have caused the Ice Climbers' cut is nonsense.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We all know the 3DS held back the Wii U version, despite Sakurai's promises to the contrary. I'm just pointing out to people why the claims that 8 player smash could have caused the Ice Climbers' cut is nonsense.

Except for the part that Sakurai said it would hold it back. People are misremembering this often. Nah, that wouldn't have caused their cut. But they may not have worked perfectly in 8-Player Smash. It's likely that case.

 

[Mobes]

Except for the part that Sakurai said it would hold it back. People are misremembering this often. Nah, that wouldn't have caused their cut. But they may not have worked perfectly in 8-Player Smash. It's likely that case.

I'd like to see where he actually promises the 3DS version wouldn't hold back the WiiU, beyond the promise of same characters and some good ol' projection by the community.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd like to see where he actually promises the 3DS version wouldn't hold back the WiiU, beyond the promise of same characters and some good ol' projection by the community.

To put it bluntly, he didn't really say much about what he "would not" hold back.

"The reality of the situation unfortunately is that there are certain limitations on the 3DS. So we’re forced into the situation where we may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree. but we’re really working hard in order to include as many characters as possible." Clearly later it was more than the characters.

At best he said he'd try, not that it wouldn't as is. As for the other stuff, it's pretty obvious he had to reduce many options to make it run properly.

 

[Mobes]

To put it bluntly, he didn't really say much about what he "would not" hold back.

"The reality of the situation unfortunately is that there are certain limitations on the 3DS. So we’re forced into the situation where we may need to reduce some characters to a certain degree. but we’re really working hard in order to include as many characters as possible."

Clearly later it was more than the characters.

That statement doesn't really mention "cutting" characters, but rather talking (I'm presuming) about reducing some characters so that they're less costly (in terms of logic execution and calculation) which makes it easier to maintain consistent 60FPS over all, and have less data to transfer over network games. Like how they reduced the count of "items with AI" on characters like Dedede and Olimar.

 

[S_B]

It's because they didn't work on Smash 3DS. I feel like people that keep bringing up "Older games could run x or couldnt run x but were kept in anyways" don't realize that at this point pretty much nobody is actually making the claim "IC weren't kept in because x".

It was GoldeenYojimbo telling me that I had no idea how the ice climbers work that got ME arguing.

I'm a generally a very polite, respectful debater: if you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you, no matter how much we disagree. If you insult my intelligence, yeah, I'm not going to react kindly to it.

As I said, all indications by Sakurai suggest that the ICs and Chorus Kids were axed LONG before 8 player smash was being implemented, so blaming 8 player smash for the ICs' exclusion makes no sense.

Really, we should be mad at the 3DS version, here...

Maybe Sakurai will pull his head out of his butt and just give us the ICs/CCs on the Wii U version. The 3DS version was always supposed to be the lesser version anyway...

 

[Deleted member]

With that statement in mind, it really raises the question on why the Ice Climbers weren't "reduced" to "Ice Climber" if they weren't low priority.

I guess it could be argued that it would change their identity as far as Smash goes too much, but in a sense that's what happened with the whole Zelda/Sheik concept.

 

[Mobes]

With that statement in mind, it really raises the question on why the Ice Climbers weren't "reduced" to "Ice Climber" if they weren't low priority.

I guess it could be argued that it would change their identity as far as Smash goes too much, but in a sense that's what happened with the whole Zelda/Sheik concept.

Spliting Zelda/Sheik ruins neither of their identities as playable fighters. Splitting the Ice Climbers probably would, since their duo-hood is their main gimmick. I've seen this idea before, and I disagree with the notion that most of what Ice Climbers are would be intact if they got split up.

 

[Deleted member]

Spliting Zelda/Sheik ruins neither of their identities as playable fighters. Splitting the Ice Climbers probably would, since their duo-hood is their main gimmick. I've seen this idea before, and I disagree with the notion that most of what Ice Climbers are would be intact if they got split up.

I've seen this point brought up a lot (even by me in the past), but the thing to remember is that the transformation gimmick pretty much defined Zelda/Sheik as the duo gimmick defines the Climbers.
Removing the gimmick removed the identity defined for them and established newer identities based around the individual fighters. Same thing would be if the Climbers lost their duo identity and the SoPo identity ascended into official status.

 

[Arcadenik]

If the SoPo idea becomes a thing, the lone Ice Climber needs buffs and a new recovery.

 

[Deleted member]

If the SoPo idea becomes a thing, the lone Ice Climber needs buffs and a new recovery.

Recovery, yes.
Buffs, debatable.

If anything, SoPo would be the nerf that the Climbers needed in the first place.

 

[Arcadenik]

Recovery, yes.
Buffs, debatable.

If anything, SoPo would be the nerf that the Climbers needed in the first place.

Well... I liked dishing out double damage with Nana present... but if Popo is solo, he wouldn't inflict double damage... unless he got a hammer upgrade (the buff) to dish out double damage while solo... or at least have Popo attack twice.

 

[Flaxr XIII]

Another solution I though up with to deal with the wandering AI Nana would be to just tether them together, whether with visible rope or and invisible "umbilical chord" kind of thing, similar to how duck and dog are tethered to make the Duck Hunt. Why not have Nana stay close to Popo at all times and have her snap back when separated? The only reason she'd need to be separated would be for the Up B move anyways.
Just an idea. Too far fetched?

 

[Arcadenik]

Another solution I though up with to deal with the wandering AI Nana would be to just tether them together, whether with visible rope or and invisible "umbilical chord" kind of thing, similar to how duck and dog are tethered to make the Duck Hunt. Why not have Nana stay close to Popo at all times and have her snap back when separated? The only reason she'd need to be separated would be for the Up B move anyways.
Just an idea. Too far fetched?

I always thought that this is how the Ice Climbers should be since the Melee days. Why it didn't occur to Sakurai is beyond me. They should be together at all times... as if they are one inseparable model like Duck Hunt Duo instead of two separable models (where one of them is computer controlled).