Runners and Spammers: A Kirby Problem

[Mr. Game and Play]

This past saturday I came across my first Runner (Samus) and a Spammmer (Sheik)...

Samus: In a timed match Samus got a stock ahead and ran till time was up (about 30 seconds left) I foud it hard to keep up a chase.

Sheik: Spamming needles on a small stages then rolling away when I approach.

Just wondering how thw other kirby's out there deal with these things...

 

[Professor X]

I've experienced almost the exact same thing, a spamming & running Sheik and in my case a running, cowardly Fox.

It's almost stunning that someone playing a high-tiered character against a Kirby would spend the entire match running away, but if they realize you're better than them, they'll do it.

One potential solution is taunting, both within the game and outside of it. But this is hardly foolproof; some people have no shame.

I assume most Kirby players won't like this answer, but the only solution I have is to develop a fast secondary character. That's what I've been doing ever since I was treated like this at my last tournament.

 

[t!MmY]

This is exactly why Kirby is bottom tier.

 

[Mr. Game and Play]

I'm really angry you would say that T!mmy, cause if we had a player tier list runners and spammers with high tier characters would be low tier.

 

[Professor X]

Don't hate on t!Mmy. He's 100% right on this one. The fact that these players can abuse us this way, that we can't do a **** thing to stop them once they get up a stock, is a reflection on Kirby's role in the metagame.

Yes, we may judge the fighting style of these high-tier opponents as cowardly, but in reality they're taking the simplest and surest route to victory. And for some, winning is everything. You're in no position to say what's the right way to play.

 

[Dr.Peabody]

Yep, its a bit frustrating. Kirby needs some of hish awsomeness back from n64 days

 

[Mr. Game and Play]

I'm mad professor X is trying to reprimand me... I not hating on T!mmy he can do as he or anyone of you think is right I was just expressing that being able to be ran from or spammed is a lame reason for someone to be bottom tier. Any character can spam and any character can run. So shouldn't everyone be low/high tier?

 

[Professor X]

Blah blah flamewar. Spare me.

The deal is, not everyone is a spammer or a runner.

Being a spammer means you have an effective projectile that prevents your opponents from being a runner. For example, Captain Falcon and Marth have no projectiles; Luigi and Kirby have projectiles that don't force the opponent to approach and attack.

Yes, every character can run by smashing the directional stick, but how many can run effectively from a faster opponent? Here's an experiment: pick Kirby and play against an above-average Captain Falcon. Swallowcide immediately to go up a stock, then try and run away for the next 8 minutes and preserve all of your stocks. Good luck with that.

You're the one who initially complained about an opponent's strategy that renders all of Kirby's strategies ineffective. That same strategy is not nearly as effective against most other characters in the game. The existence of this discrepancy is one reason Kirby is considered bottom tier; I don't consider that a lame reason.

 

[Impp]

Do your best. That's the only thing I can think of. **** stock time limit. Sometimes I think it should be removed.

 

[t!MmY]

If Kirby couldn't be camped (in general), that would mean he either has an effective projectile (SHL, needle, etc) or speed/priority to compensate (e.g. Falcon/Marth), and he would most definately not be bottom tier.

Running/spamming/camping are actually effective strategies to employ in tournament conditions. As with all strategies though, one must know when to utilize them and when to forego using them. Thus characters who allow use of more and better classes of strategy are superior to those who are limited in their range of effecitve strategies.

I'm going to stop here before I get even more long-winded. I prefer concise posts. (Edit: See the first sentence of Impp's post, above. It's the best advice).

 

[Professor X]

Really? "Do your best," is the best advice for Kirby to defeat a Fox that refuses to attack and only runs away for 8 minutes? Or is this another way of saying that winning doesn't matter?

 

[t!MmY]

Yes. Yes. No.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

OK, if someone is going to run all day, you can catch up with them. Why? They have to cross you eventually. Smash is 2-D. So, once they're in a corner and you're approaching, they either have to stand and fight or go above or through you. Either way, that's your chance. The only character I can think of who can do this effectively against Kirby is Mewtwo (fast teleport and huge dodge) but few people play Mewtwo anyway.

When somebody runs, at a certain point you have a chance to hit them because they have to go through you to keep running, If you screw that up, then that's your fault.

To answer the initial question, the simple answer is don't let Samus get a stock ahead. Kind of obvious, but, it works. If they do start running, read the first paragraph here.

The second question is this. If the opponent is always rolling, you know exactly what they're going to do. So, all you have to do is read them and get there first. If the Sheik rolls backward, just keep going and grab. Or short-hop an inhale and show them the real way to use needles.

I've faced a few runners before, and I've never really had a problem with getting to them.

Oh, yes, and I do love the thought brought up in here about taunting outside of the game. Do it. There's no rules against it. Just be really, really annoying. Buttcrust could give you a lot of tips about that.

 

[t!MmY]

It's not that the two characters will never cross paths, nor is Kirby so slow that he can't even get close, it's the fact that Kirby's notably slower than almost every character, lacks power, and is really light.

So, if your opponent does nothing but run/spam/camp, you shouldn't have much problem with them. But, if they're at all intelligent, a running/spamming/camping opponent will still be hitting Kirby with better attacks/combos and living longer. And, if this is advantageous, no one can really complain when someone is using it to their advantage, especially in a competitive fight.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

playing defensively is hard to fight against as most characters, especially the crappy ones lol

 

[DeathscytheHello]

So, if your opponent does nothing but run/spam/camp, you shouldn't have much problem with them. But, if they're at all intelligent, a running/spamming/camping opponent will still be hitting Kirby with better attacks/combos and living longer. And, if this is advantageous, no one can really complain when someone is using it to their advantage, especially in a competitive fight.

And if the Kirby is somewhat good he can deal with it seeing as this is the normal Kirby match-up. IE an up-hill battle that you should probably lose but won't because you're too awesome to lose.

To get ahead, they basically need to out-play you for a bit, then they can do whatever. The way to solve this is to not let them get ahead. Easier said than done, but that's basically the case.

Gimpy said it best, pretty much, but we realized that responsibility when we kept our crappy characters.

 

[Buttcrust]

Yes, talk outside the game is the most effective and fun way of accomplishing anything in this game. I try to be as demoralizing as possible. If nessesary you can always punch the person in the temple.

But really this is how it goes usually, "Oh you're so cool, just running away because you know you can't win if you fight a real fight. Why don't you quit being a pansy and do something?"

They mumble back, "At least I'm winning..."

I mimic in a very feminie voice then add, "because I suck too much to actually fight."

Then they'll make a lame comment about it being a legit tactic.

I say, "I consider punching you in the trachea a legit tactic." Then flinch quickly in their direction.

I continue to insult as much and as angrily as possible. Then I make a good attempt to stand directly behind them in every match they play afterwards and point out every mistake they make and insult them every chance I get. If they run away for even a second I point it out. I try to at the very least ruin their day and at the very most get into a real fight. My goal is always within that range of outcomes.

Of coarse none of this applies if you aren't a ****. I'm actually a pretty nice guy unless you act like a *******.

 

[Madlobster]

hmm the "buttcrust mindgame".

need to try that one out, hehe

 

[Omnigamer]

And if the Kirby is somewhat good he can deal with it seeing as this is the normal Kirby match-up. IE an up-hill battle that you should probably lose but won't because you're too awesome to lose.

To get ahead, they basically need to out-play you for a bit, then they can do whatever. The way to solve this is to not let them get ahead. Easier said than done, but that's basically the case.

Gimpy said it best, pretty much, but we realized that responsibility when we kept our crappy characters.

Regardless of how competent a Kirby player may be, a running Fox (or any other notably fast character with a projectile) can decimate a Kirby so long as they keep up with the strategy. Sticking with the example of Fox, lasers build damage far faster than you'd imagine, and if you're stuck going for the rush-down, you're dead to a moderately timed usmash or uthrow uair. Even if you do manage to confine them to a small space, Kirby will likely only be able to get a hit or two in before they manage to get out and run again. Kirby just doesn't have the maneuverability for constant rush-down. It's the same way for Sheik, simply running away and tossing needles is far more effective than it should be. A simple kill move is all that needs to follow. I've had experience against such players (most notably M2K and Vidjo), and can say that if the opponent takes up such strategies, you could very well have no chance of winning whatsoever.

How to get around this? You can't really. Your best hope is to be somewhere with a small wall or platforms to change position on. If they're insistent on staying as far away as possible, stick to a safe place and taunt until they get too annoyed to do so. If it's a tournament match, all you can do is hope that thay have an SD or two, or forget their strategy and come after you anyway.

 

[DeathscytheHello]

Well... what you said above doesn't really sound that much different from the normal Kirby match-ups (IE Fox and Shiek can decimate Kirby with or without projectiles). Anyway, I just don't think that it's as impossible to deal with these runners as you guys are making it out to be.

 

[Sushiman]

Well... what you said above doesn't really sound that much different from the normal Kirby match-ups (IE Fox and Shiek can decimate Kirby with or without projectiles). Anyway, I just don't think that it's as impossible to deal with these runners as you guys are making it out to be.

It may be impossible if the opponent is actually skilled at running and spamming. If they can read what you're going to do and where you'll move next, they can keep running away.

 

[Omnigamer]

Well... what you said above doesn't really sound that much different from the normal Kirby match-ups (IE Fox and Shiek can decimate Kirby with or without projectiles). Anyway, I just don't think that it's as impossible to deal with these runners as you guys are making it out to be.

There's quite a difference. Whereas a good Fox/Shiek can two-stock a Kirby consistently, decimate in my use is saying four-stock, double-digit percentage.

To elaborate, I will make the case of myself vs FastLikeTree and KM at FC6 (since they placed roughly the same, we will say that they have approximately the same skill level). Both played Marth, and I was Kirby. FastLikeTree's style is very non-aggressive for this matchup. He will simply wait in a spot dash-dancing after the first few hits are traded. In that position, Kirby has no real way to approach. Anything in the air is eaten by fair. Anything on the ground is grabbed or pivot f-smashed. There's no real way to effectively get inside him in this situation, and this led to my defeat in these matches with quite a large margin. This style can be equated to running/spamming, as it is much the same premise.

Next up against KM. He played much more aggressively, trying to rush in and keep control at all times. This is actually much easier to deal with, as a miss or predicted combo can be turned around for my advantage much more often. This, IMO, is one of Kirby's greatest assets, but it still requires the opportunity to be utilized. In the end, I still lost, but the matches were far closer (IIRC, a one-stock mid-damage and a two-stock high-damage).

It's very similar in cases with other characters.

 

[Buttcrust]

Kirby is much better when played more defensively. But I still like my strategy for runners. Also, if it is shiek, just crouch and force them to approach. Same with Fox/Falco too. Slowly move in while crouching. During the switch you have your chance to damage them. Just be more patient than them.

 

[Omnigamer]

Unfortunately, your "strategy" will not work in a tournament situation. If something's working, and they know it's working, they'll keep on doing it, regardless of whatever taunting you're dealing out. Most people won't even take the effort to respond.

Secondly, the crouch is not as invulnerable to projectiles as you make it out to be. A shiek only has to jump and fire needles to put Kirby in a situation where he either shields and gets grabbed, or does nothing and gets hit, then grabbed and/or comboed. Same goes with Fox and Falco. A good Fox or Falco can time the lasers so that they can hit a crouched Kirby. For Fox, all they need to do is dshl to get a sure hit. And because Kirby can't approach fast, they have plenty of opportunity to simply jump over and continue with their strategy on the far side. Also, staying crouched constantly leaves you open for quick drillshines, or drills to grabs to uair. It's far more difficult to get around than you're making it out to be.

 

[Buttcrust]

Not really. First of all, my normal plan is not meant to escape with a win, buyt merely to humiliate and upset.

Secondly, if the Shiek is close enough to you that a jump and thrown needles hit you then you are close enough to attack her and score hits. If you can't do it from that range than you are just plain outclassed and need to work on your game.

For Fox/Falco, more often than not they will not be able to get the laser to skim the ground and hit you. The laser can't kill you and they can't do it fast enough with enough success to where one tilt or b-air doesn't give you a perectage lead per approach. In fact you could probably only hit them every 3-4 approaches and still win a percent battle with lasers. When you get within a certain distance you know they are either going to try and fight or jump over and run away. That's when you use those ever so useful mindgames. Yes they have some too, but who is smarter is who scores the hit. Don't stay crouched when you expect them to move, that's just stupid. Get up and be ready to cut off their escape. Shield/WD/DD/hit them first/dodge/trade hits with them. Learn to capitalize.

This becomes an even more prevalent tactic when you consider that most people don't play the level of opponents as a Drephen or Korean DJ and thus don't possess the mindgames and knowledge of Smash needed to outsmart anyone with decent intelligence and mild cognitive thinking skills in order to distinguish patterns of behavior. As much as I respect your Kirby play and, even more, knowledge of the game you seem to be focusing more on the negative possiblities than the positive probabilities.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

he "focuses on the negative" because kirby is a horrible character and when people know how to exploit him (for example through spamming and really defensive play) he doesn't have much of a chance. When you say to just duck the blaster and hit him every 3 or 4 approaches you seem to forget what INTELLIGENT spam is. intelligent spam sets you up, so that you approach them, and when you do, you get owned. especially as poor little kirby vs big scary fox/falco. Shiek also is not blindly jumping and throwing needles at the peak of her jump. needles cancels are a scary thing and can go into pretty much anything, you duck so the needles hit you and you are cc'ing well you'll probably still get dsmashed/dtilted. if you shielded the needles thats basically auto grab into "shiek is better than kirby" combo.

the reason everyone says this basically owns kirby is because it does.
your -humiliate the opponent- "STRATEGY" assumes you are like 2 stock up and they are spamming out of desperation. any good player will simply laugh at your attempts of taunting while spamming you into a 4 stock frenzy.

kirby is not the character you make him out to be, he may very well be the worst character in the game with the least amount of potential. Accept how bad your character is please, dont be like a ness user lol XD

 

[psykoplympton]

Honestly i think kirby is the worst character in the game. I am way better with jigglypuff, but i like kirby better. I have started to master powershielding for combating agianst spammers.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Against spammers? You can only hope you eventually get close enough to them so they'll stop. Then they start running. Kirby's too slow to chase.

It'd help if he had at least enoguh power to get a kill, or enough speed / aerial mobility to effectively attack. It's hard to see how the developers could have missed some of these things. Marth, best range, extremely powerful,godlike priority? Peach has godlike recovery and priority. Kirby has nothing, Bowser is fairly slow, big, relatively comboable, Pichu was supposed to be a joke character I think, but even then, they managed to make Kirby worse than him.

It's something we have to realize when we play low tier. Even those who are around middle teir aren't going to be winning many tournaments. With the idea of a competetive Brawl scene looking far away, it looks like we are stuck being bottom of the barrel.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

they figured we'd all use the kirby cheat i guess lol

good ol kirby and his overwhelming badness.

 

[dai1313]

for a runner pick up an item and throw it at him, it works surpriseingly well, at least for me.

 

[nitro-blazer]

they figured we'd all use the kirby cheat i guess lol

We could, but that'd be unfair. I mean, it's more cheap than the windmill of fury. Kirby players believe too strongly in the virtue of honour to degrade themselves to such levels...

On a more serious note, unless you're good at starting combos that lead into kills off desperate hit attempts with awkward moves, runners will get the best of you.

...Furby meat?

GIMPY EDIT: lol @ furby meat XD

 

[t!MmY]

for a runner pick up an item and throw it at him, it works surpriseingly well, at least for me.

Yeah, I especially like to hit someone with a pokeball because it opens up right next to them. And Porygon can KO people relatively easy even when they're hiding in Hyrule Temple's "pit".

 

[Omnigamer]

...Furby meat?

Not on my forum, you don't :Þ


*gimpy edit* lol i didn't know i could edit omni's posts *abuses mod powers*

 

[dai1313]

Yea but pokeballs are small and better to use defensively (thrown straight down)