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Rosalina's 1.0.4 Patch Change Impressions

Locke 06

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The Greninja boards have said that Hydro Pump's range and windbox have been nerfed along with the ending lag of his upsmash.

I'm surprised they're making changes based on any results, to be honest. Just because one character is doing well, doesn't mean they need a nerf. It just means that their character has probably developed strategies faster and counter strategies are still being ironed out.
 

DarkKiru

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I fail to see why projectile spam should be encouraged. If Rosalina counters those people with Down B, so be it.

Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?
I think Greninja got a nerf due to a bugfix (a small nerf, but a nerf nonetheless)

Not sure how I feel about Mac, whenever I think about him I think he's good (due to his amazing ground game) and then I remember how easy it is to gimp him, even at 0% (I've killed a few by literally just throwing them off the stage at 0%, and bairing once to knock them out of recovery range; could possibly be due to bad Mac's, but being skilled doesn't erase your weaknesses, it simply lets you mitigate them better).

Imo he probably skirts the line between balanced and slightly too strong, I wouldn't be opposed to changes if they were really necessary.

Edit: Dammit, double post due to glitchy internet.
 
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Clemente

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I fail to see why projectile spam should be encouraged. If Rosalina counters those people with Down B, so be it.

Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?
I'm baffled that you're baffled. She's a few steps above those characters IMO, good as they are.
 

Sosuke

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Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?
Greninja is getting multiple nerfs, you should pay more attention. ^_^

also i totally think rosalina nerfs are justified, the character just seems mechanically broken right now, i can only imagine how she would play a few years down the line
 

Asdioh

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I didn't realize people actually existed that thought it is fair to make grabbing (an important aspect of many characters' playstyles) completely unviable against Rosalina.
There is no way you can ever justify this.
I'm a Kirby main and Luma can knock me out of all 4 of my throws, it is the very definition of an unfair, broken mechanic. Even the Upthrow can be hit on the way down, it looks completely absurd.

Luma can still attack while Rosalina's in hitstun, right? That one's bordering on unfair, but you can deal with that by spacing so Luma can't reach you, unlike with grabs. She's still going to be an extremely good character.

I actually don't think she's horribly overpowered, she just is poorly designed and thus lacks counterplay. Luma being unable to attack during grabs is just a fix that makes sense, and the longer respawn timer gives more time for counterplay. If they nerf her any more than that it'll be too much imo.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I fail to see why projectile spam should be encouraged. If Rosalina counters those people with Down B, so be it.

Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?
I hear Greninja's usmash got nerfed with more ending lag or something. It's possible Sheik, etc. also got some nerfs but they're not obvious enough to notice without frame by frame comparisons.

I mean, at this point in the game is anyone really going to notice if her fair comes out a frame later or has a frame more landing lag?
 

Puppyfaic

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Can I just point out that there has been no actual videographic proof of this grab change? They could have been down-right lying.
 
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Gea

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I'm baffled that you're baffled. She's a few steps above those characters IMO, good as they are.
I am like 95% sure that other characters have better tournament win rates than she does right now if you look at a world scale. Dabuz is the only one to dominate a region with her.

Some of the things being said in this thread are ridiculous. There was a character in both Melee and Brawl that you couldn't safely grab either. In fact, it was less safe to grab that character because Nana could more directly be controlled than Luma can.Additionally, gravitational pull can very much be punished if you are reasonably close to a Rosa that uses it. That's right, if you use your projectiles at a medium distance, Rosalina actually will have trouble reacting and can be punished sometimes both on a fakeout or the real deal! Sorry that your character can't sit across the stage and camp before running away again?

I'm not even denying how good Rosalina is. She was definitely one of the best characters in the game. I totally agree that the way Luma currently functions needed tweaking. However, half of the people in this thread posting are acting like she was/is MK-tier. Hell, she didn't even invalidate anyone to the level of Sheik in Melee or DDD in Brawl.
 

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Something I saw people saying in the other thread was that the Luma being able to attack from grabs wasn't overpowered and that Sakurai must be looking at For Glory replays and are worried that this will be the metric he uses to balance.

I offer a different perspective. Perhaps it wasn't OP, but it also wasn't that important to Rosalina's game, so balance might not have been the reason for its removal at all. One of the things devs of PvP games are always asking themselves is, "is this mechanic fun to fight against?" If the answer ends up being "hell no," there's pressure to change it, especially if it's not pivotal for balance.

Is getting your grab interrupted fun to fight against? No. It is infuriating. Can others do it? Not solo. Was it important to Rosalina's balance? Not really.

Knowing Sakurai's track record, he does care about balance, but he cares more about fun. Does it suck to lose it? I'm sure. Seeing how everyone else seems to be breathing a huge sigh of relief, though, it was probably warranted.
 
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Clemente

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Can I just point out that there has been no actual videographic proof of this grab change? They could have been down-right lying.
Multiple people who played the Wii U demo are saying it though, not just this OP.
 

Puppyfaic

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Multiple people who played the Wii U demo are saying it though, not just this OP.
As far as I've seen, there's only been one actual quote and everyone's going off of this. If you can provide multiple sources of different people claiming this, then I'll believe you.
 

Gea

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but he cares more about fun. .
Dude has a really strange definition of the word when he encourages projectile spam/camping/defensive option spamming. Anyone who has played Brawl or FG for about three minutes sees a persistence of the problem. Let's not even get into tripping... There are lots of infuriating things that still very much exist that have a larger impact on gameplay. Though I would argue that balance and fun can go hand in hand.

Edit: Not saying I disagree with your statement, I just think oftentimes the decisions made come with a lack of insight about the real issue.
 
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Clemente

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As far as I've seen, there's only been one actual quote and everyone's going off of this. If you can provide multiple sources of different people claiming this, then I'll believe you.
Believe me? I'm not the OP and I didn't play the demo, so I would have no clue. If you go to the character discussion in the competitive forum, someone said he played the demo and he was unable to use Luma while in a grab.
 

Gea

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As far as I've seen, there's only been one actual quote and everyone's going off of this. If you can provide multiple sources of different people claiming this, then I'll believe you.
Unless it's been patched, this video should answer as it is a full copy of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms

Looks like Luma is still active to me (there are several instances, one is around 24 seconds in)
 
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Puppyfaic

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Unless it's been patched, this video should answer as it is a full copy of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms

Looks like Luma is still active to me (there are several instances, one is around 24 seconds in)
Nope. It seems to be true. At 2:53 you can see Rosalina get grabbed, and Luma starts freaking out. Granted, it was a CPU so unless we had a way to see button inputs there's no way to actually tell. But it definitely seems to be true.
 

DarkKiru

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Unless it's been patched, this video should answer as it is a full copy of the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms

Looks like Luma is still active to me.
Its REALLY hard to tell in all the chaos lol.

Theres some parts where it looks like it might be, and then others where it looks like it isn't.

Important to note though (and im not sure how it acted before this) but at about 2:02 one of the Rosa's orders Luma to return to her, it starts moving but IMMEDIATELY stops when shes grabbed.

On a side note, its likey that this whole balancing update, was finalized concept wise (as in they knew what they were going to do) by the beginning of October; So Sakurai either used Japanese feedback and data, or his team just felt things needed to be changed for the release version of the game.
 

Gea

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Nope. It seems to be true. At 2:53 you can see Rosalina get grabbed, and Luma starts freaking out. Granted, it was a CPU so unless we had a way to see button inputs there's no way to actually tell. But it definitely seems to be true.
I noticed this, but figured in that instance Rosalina had a smashball. The AI seemed to be either doing nothing or mashing neutral B (as a general guess). I saw nothing there but an idle Luma. The alternative is that if you are doing something before you get grabbed luma can continue. I see at least two spots where luma clearly attacks while the Rosalina is grabbed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=23 Watch the middle. Luma clearly attacks twice after Rosa is in a grab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=48 Again, right side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=104 Middle, green luma even attacks and hits a nearby red luma while Rosa is in the animation of being thrown.
 
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LRodC

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Where's the source for Rosalina's Luma not being able to attack when she's being grabbed anymore? I keep hearing about it but haven't seen it myself.
 

Puppyfaic

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I noticed this, but figured in that instance Rosalina had a smashball. The AI seemed to be either doing nothing or mashing neutral B (as a general guess). I saw nothing there but an idle Luma. The alternative is that if you are doing something before you get grabbed luma can continue. I see at least two spots where luma clearly attacks while the Rosalina is grabbed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=23 Watch the middle. Luma clearly attacks twice after Rosa is in a grab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=48 Again, right side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=104 Middle, green luma even attacks and hits a nearby red luma while Rosa is in the animation of being thrown.
You've just disproven it, then. It's clear in the first link. Watch the Pink Rosalina. She has her Luma following her. When she gets grabbed, her Luma still attacks even though she was grabbed. Second link is also Pink Rosalina in the same situation. Third link is Green Rosie.
 

Gea

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In that same video you can see that the luma respawn timer is also longer, meaning that this should be the same version with the changes.

The cyan Rosalina on the right loses her luma roughly here at :23, and it doesn't come back until roughly :36
 

Puppyfaic

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Guess that settles it. Show's over folks.

The only possibility left is an in-between version, where the respawn timer was changed but the grabbing thing wasn't.
 
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HeroMystic

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Due to the confusion, I suggest holding off on any suggestion of a Luma nerf (beyond the respawn timer) until we get the game or there are patch notes (which I highly doubt there will be).

Some of the things being said in this thread are ridiculous. There was a character in both Melee and Brawl that you couldn't safely grab either. In fact, it was less safe to grab that character because Nana could more directly be controlled than Luma can.Additionally, gravitational pull can very much be punished if you are reasonably close to a Rosa that uses it. That's right, if you use your projectiles at a medium distance, Rosalina actually will have trouble reacting and can be punished sometimes both on a fakeout or the real deal! Sorry that your character can't sit across the stage and camp before running away again?
Also, this. In fact I'm thoroughly amused people are saying Rosie is MK-broken when she doesn't have nearly the amount of utility that Ice Climbers has, and they were high tier in both Melee and Brawl.
 
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Puppyfaic

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Due to the confusion, I suggest holding off on any suggestion of a Luma nerf (beyond the respawn timer) until we get the game or there are patch notes (which I highly doubt there will be).

Also, this. In fact I'm thoroughly amused people are saying Rosie is MK-broken when she doesn't have nearly the amount of utility that Ice Climbers has, and they were high tier in both Melee and Brawl.
The cause for considering Rosalina broken is because she functions well even without Luma, and unlike Nana, Luma respawns on its own. Nana never comes back,and Popo doesn't function very well without her. But it should definitely be noted that the Ice Climbers had much better strength together than Rosalina and Luma do.
 

HeroMystic

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To note, I think GP on Ness is really silly and that should be fixed.

The cause for considering Rosalina broken is because she functions well even without Luma, and unlike Nana, Luma respawns on its own. Nana never comes back,and Popo doesn't function very well without her. But it should definitely be noted that the Ice Climbers had much better strength together than Rosalina and Luma do.
I don't find that suitable enough to warrant the label of broken. In terms of Competitive factor, it'd be SoPo < SoRo < Rosaluma <<< IC. Rosalina functions decently without Luma, but she loses a lot of control of the stage and has to resort to a very defensive playstyle. Her moveset is designed as such, which is why F-air and N-air covers so much range. As stated before, she's still juggle fodder if you manage to get her in the air, and GP is not nearly as difficult to handle as perceived.

While I grant that Luma respawning is a big point for Rosalina, that's the only point she has. Nana doesn't respawn, but she also doesn't have a limited amount of HP, is capable of grabbing, has far better control, and needs to be KO'd/gimped off the stage like Popo. The Ice Climbers have literally done everything Rosaluma has, except better and is capable of doing more, and are capable of doing a 0-to-death on the entire cast. Nana doesn't need a respawn timer because her presence is an extreme boost to Popo's arsenal, and a good IC player will keep Nana alive for the majority of the match.

The reason why I bring this up is because the evidence against Rosalina is, quite frankly, anecdotal. Rosalina is a strong character, but the metagame hasn't developed and character assessments are rocky at best. For instance, the Mario boards are still experimenting with custom movesets and combos from d-throw, and match-up discussions have barely taken place, anywhere. I just don't see why everyone is screaming bloody murder when this game has barely got off the ground as is.
 

Lavani

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKRVKPCc6Ms#t=104 Middle, green luma even attacks and hits a nearby red luma while Rosa is in the animation of being thrown.
I made a 1/3 speed gfy of this one, as it seems to be the closest to actual evidence (after looking at 0:23 more I think the ftilt is pre-grab and the nair seems post-release, and if I'm not mistaken 0:48 is a dsmash that was initiated before the grab).


Pretty clear here that Luma's doing nothing before the grab, and starts a nair at the same time as the fthrow.
 

drLemons

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But it does mean that Luma can at least interrupt throws, does it not? Had they faced the other way, the black clad Rosalina would have taken the hit from that neutral aerial.
 

MAGMIS

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I fail to see why projectile spam should be encouraged. If Rosalina counters those people with Down B, so be it.

Personally I'm baffled she's being nerfed and Sheik/Mac/Greninja aren't being nerfed from what we know of. Like... really?

I agree with shiek and greninja. Seen alot of them in tournaments, but usually the ones that are winning majority is sheik in NA. However, little Mac isn't that op like everyone thinks he is. Not many play him in tournaments as another proof because if he was really that good I would be seeing Mac alot more such rosalina and luma.

Also I read an article iirc where sakurai saw the lowest win rate is little Mac in online play. But that wouldn't matter cuz there could be a lot of noobs playing Mac. Especially how for glory for some is considered a practice mode. But still that goes to show you would think Mac was that good.


So far what ive seen in tournaments all the character that are fast has a greater chance of beating rosalina.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I'm quite sure that the other reflecting moves can counter PK Thunder as well. It should also be noted that Rosalina can only stop PK Thunder if she's close to Ness; otherwise, he can still pull off his recovery.

Anyway, it's just one match-up, and like I said already, Gravitational Pull can't do anything to those who lack projectiles, such as Donkey Kong, Captain Falcon, and Sonic.
 

Asdioh

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Some of the things being said in this thread are ridiculous. There was a character in both Melee and Brawl that you couldn't safely grab either. In fact, it was less safe to grab that character because Nana could more directly be controlled than Luma can.
Bad design is still bad design. I don't think anybody claimed ICs were well designed.
In fact, if they didn't have infinites, they would probably be better design philosophy than Rosalina, because when you KO Nana, she's gone for that stock. Not gone for x amount of seconds while Popo runs away until she comes back. And Popo by himself is notably worse than Rosalina by herself. Basically ICs had more extreme strengths and weaknesses (think Little Mac) whereas Rosalina is just all around good, with a frustrating mechanic thrown in.

I offer a different perspective. Perhaps it wasn't OP, but it also wasn't that important to Rosalina's game, so balance might not have been the reason for its removal at all. One of the things devs of PvP games are always asking themselves is, "is this mechanic fun to fight against?" If the answer ends up being "hell no," there's pressure to change it, especially if it's not pivotal for balance.

Is getting your grab interrupted fun to fight against? No. It is infuriating. Can others do it? Not solo. Was it important to Rosalina's balance? Not really.
Agreed. The only other characters I can think of that can punish your grabs are characters with bombs, and that generally requires 1. setup and 2. getting hurt themselves. All Rosalina has to do to break grabs currently is... exist.

You've just disproven it, then. It's clear in the first link. Watch the Pink Rosalina. She has her Luma following her. When she gets grabbed, her Luma still attacks even though she was grabbed. Second link is also Pink Rosalina in the same situation. Third link is Green Rosie.
 

ChikoLad

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Agreed. The only other characters I can think of that can punish your grabs are characters with bombs, and that generally requires 1. setup and 2. getting hurt themselves. All Rosalina has to do to break grabs currently is... exist.
Rosalina still has to make sure her Luma is close enough, and even then, many opponents can just swing her into Luma, pummel her to screw up her control of Luma (if she's being pummeled, Luma only does F-Air regardless of your input), etc.

It was far from a broken mechanic. Most Rosalina mains will tell you it wasn't the most amazing boon in the world once people knew what they were doing.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I made a 1/3 speed gfy of this one, as it seems to be the closest to actual evidence (after looking at 0:23 more I think the ftilt is pre-grab and the nair seems post-release, and if I'm not mistaken 0:48 is a dsmash that was initiated before the grab).


Pretty clear here that Luma's doing nothing before the grab, and starts a nair at the same time as the fthrow.
I can't even tell who's Luma belongs to who, so that .gif is less than useful.

We'll definitely want to test this ASAP on Friday.
 

Greward

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Also, this. In fact I'm thoroughly amused people are saying Rosie is MK-broken when she doesn't have nearly the amount of utility that Ice Climbers has, and they were high tier in both Melee and Brawl.
Excuse me? High tier in brawl? They were second best and arguably on the same power level of MK. They were just way less played because their gameplay was horrible and completely toxic.

I'm really happy about the nerfs, because i feel she's way too powerful in the current build. I feel like there are 5-6 characters who are clearly overpowered over a cast of ~30 characters that are quite balanced, and those 6 characters should get nerfed.
Also the grab breaking mechanic was kinda toxic. It meant you couldn't grab her unless you where a certain character or Luma was far away / dead, which doesn't happen that usual.
All around these nerfs probably won't make her get down of the top/high tier, but it makes her more bearable.
 

Gandolftheman

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Ok, quick question. When you say Luma can't attack when grabbed, does this only apply to grabs or does this apply to all hitstun?
 

DarkKiru

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Ok, quick question. When you say Luma can't attack when grabbed, does this only apply to grabs or does this apply to all hitstun?
Assuming its actually true, it seems like only grabs. It should be able to attack at any other time.

We won't really know if its true or not for a while sadly.
 

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Agreed. The only other characters I can think of that can punish your grabs are characters with bombs, and that generally requires 1. setup and 2. getting hurt themselves. All Rosalina has to do to break grabs currently is... exist.
This is not true in the slightest. There are a couple requirements for being able to break grabs as Rosalina.
1. Luma has to be alive.
2. Luma has to be near Rosalina or the assailant.
3. Luma has to actually be facing the correct way.

If even one of these conditions aren't met, Luma can't do anything. More often than not, because of how grabs work, Luma isn't facing the right way, so any move you try to get him to do will not work.
 

HeroMystic

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Excuse me? High tier in brawl? They were second best and arguably on the same power level of MK. They were just way less played because their gameplay was horrible and completely toxic.
I forgot the brawl tier list placed Metaknight as SS tier rather then S tier.

So Ice Climbers managed to reach second best, that one I wasn't expecting. However, they aren't as broken as MK. They have obvious weaknesses that can be exploited, unlike MK.

Brawl overall was a mess. Smash 4 is a lot better off, but I still stand by my opinion that Rosie is nowhere near as powerful as ICs and once counterplay is developed more thoroughly against her, she'll actually drop.
 
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