Rosalina in hit stun and Luma

[drLemons]

I recently found out something fairly interesting for all of us and since I have not seen anyone talk about this, I figured that I might as well just post about this because not everybody may know about it. I think this is cool enough to warrant its own thread. Before the patch, Luma could be commanded to attack during Rosalina's hit stun any time to basically escape from combos or throws for free, an unusual mechanic which many players agree was better off removed.

Now, by using Luma Shot, Luma enters a state where he keeps a slightly larger distance in front of Rosalina, dances faster and has a halo around himself. His movement is free, sometimes unpredictable and he also uses his jumps if Rosalina is in the air, but generally, he'll be somewhere in front of Rosalina. But there's another thing that changes.

In this mode, Luma is allowed to be controlled during any kind of Rosalina's hit stun. As soon as Rosalina is in any sort of hit stun, after a smash attack, during a throw, during Diddy Kong or Bowser's command grabs or when fTilted by Sheik over and over, you can input attacks for Luma to perform, including jabs and tilts or aerials depending on either Rosalina or Luma's positions.

This means with correct positioning following a Luma Shot, the old behaviour can be replicated to a certain degree, allowing situational escapes from ground based combos and more reliable throw interruptions.

Keep in mind this requires the Luma Shot set up and Luma will not follow Rosalina in this mode, meaning that once a significant distance from him is reached, he will not be able to interrupt anything because in this mode in particular he prefers to stay behind. This is different from before the patch where this worked in the coupled mode and all the player had to do was jab to make Luma zip right into the opponent for a free punish during Rosalina's hit stun. As such, this mechanic now requires a set up and carries risks as well as a lower reward, being a good compromise for both sides, as the option is still available but not easily exploitable by everybody.

So, I hope this is good news to you all. Keep on exploring and enjoying Rosalina and Luma, there is much yet to be found. For this thread I recommend discussing possible guaranteed punishes on certain characters with low risk and high rewards using this mechanic.

 

[icraq]

woah
this is good to know, i figured it was out completely!
i'll double check and confirm this here shortly and make an edit.

edit: omg it is in, good find! thank you! also wtf nintendo

 

[Parcheesy]

woah
this is good to know, i figured it was out completely!
i'll double check and confirm this here shortly and make an edit.

edit: omg it is in, good find! thank you! also wtf nintendo

Shhh...Don't type that so loudly, they might hear and patch it out.

I'm really glad there's more incentive to playing with them separate. Good find Doc.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This explains a few things. Good find.

 

[Garde Noir]

I recently found out something fairly interesting for all of us and since I have not seen anyone talk about this, I figured that I might as well just post about this because not everybody may know about it. I think this is cool enough to warrant its own thread. Before the patch, Luma could be commanded to attack during Rosalina's hit stun any time to basically escape from combos or throws for free, an unusual mechanic which many players agree was better off removed.

Now, by using Luma Shot, Luma enters a state where he keeps a slightly larger distance in front of Rosalina, dances faster and has a halo around himself. His movement is free, sometimes unpredictable and he also uses his jumps if Rosalina is in the air, but generally, he'll be somewhere in front of Rosalina. But there's another thing that changes.

In this mode, Luma is allowed to be controlled during any kind of Rosalina's hit stun. As soon as Rosalina is in any sort of hit stun, after a smash attack, during a throw, during Diddy Kong or Bowser's command grabs or when fTilted by Sheik over and over, you can input attacks for Luma to perform, including jabs and tilts or aerials depending on either Rosalina or Luma's positions.

This means with correct positioning following a Luma Shot, the old behaviour can be replicated to a certain degree, allowing situational escapes from ground based combos and more reliable throw interruptions.

Keep in mind this requires the Luma Shot set up and Luma will not follow Rosalina in this mode, meaning that once a significant distance from him is reached, he will not be able to interrupt anything because in this mode in particular he prefers to stay behind. This is different from before the patch where this worked in the coupled mode and all the player had to do was jab to make Luma zip right into the opponent for a free punish during Rosalina's hit stun. As such, this mechanic now requires a set up and carries risks as well as a lower reward, being a good compromise for both sides, as the option is still available but not easily exploitable by everybody.

So, I hope this is good news to you all. Keep on exploring and enjoying Rosalina and Luma, there is much yet to be found. For this thread I recommend discussing possible guaranteed punishes on certain characters with low risk and high rewards using this mechanic.

What I like doing with this (I didn't know it as extensively as you, but still kinda knew it) is soft shooting Luma at the beginning of the match, and dodging to her. if you immediately start attacking, she's close enough to feign together, but you still get the interrupts of distance-Luma. the only problem is that if you wait, Luma will BOUNCE AWAY FROM YOU. so constant close movement and attacks are necessary. Patience will cause Luma to automatically separate.

 

[Zalezus]

My personal favorite is using Nair (while Luma is still attached) on the first available frames out of hit stun. It's by far more circumstantial than setting up in tandem with Luma Shot, but punishes long attack animations well enough.

 

[Baskerville]

Guess that explains my D-Air kills.

 

[icraq]

Guys.
This doesn't work on the 3DS version.
What.

edit: umm.. it seems like it might actually work.. but not with smart bombs. for some reason she can't control luma in the 3ds version while separated from luma and caught in a smart bomb, but she can control luma when separated and caught in a smart bomb in the wii u version..

 

[drLemons]

@ icraq Ah, I was a little confused by your initial post. I found the cause of that strange discrepancy anyway.

Items behave ever so slightly differently between the 3DS and Wii U versions and us Peach mains got a little problem with that. On the 3DS version, the hit from a dThrow turnip will send you the wrong way, so if it connects from the left side you will be launched to the left and vice versa for right, so in most situations, you will be launched towards Peach. This is exactly the other way around on the Wii U for some reason and both behaviours go for all items, so the Turnip nAir lock is no longer easily doable on the Wii U. As you found out, Luma cannot act when Rosalina is in the hit stun from a Smart Bomb on the 3DS. I tested this and yet it works on the Wii U version.

Turns out that the Smart Bomb deals a lot more hits per explosion on the 3DS than on the Wii U. A consistent 35 hits blowing up Lucario for 32% damage on the 3DS and a measly 13 hits on the Wii U for 27%-29%, yet the explosions last the exact same time.

This means Rosalina is hit so fast in succession on the 3DS version that there is no frame window for you to actually input a move for Luma. Things like those are so mildly interesting.

Also, the differing behaviour of items is what had me confused initially about your post. It is definitely an oversight on the 3DS version which implies the Wii U version is a slightly later and more revised build, so I was left wondering why Rosalina could control the untethered Luma only in the later build and thought about it for a while before answering. Good edit.

The tests imply there is a small window in which Luma cannot be controlled at all when Rosalina's hit stun has just begun and I could find further evidence for that. On the Wii U version, I went into training mode and set the speed to one fourth when holding L, sending out Luma and buffering a jab with Little Mac. Mac has a frame-1 jab, which means Rosalina will get hit as soon as I hold L.

So the moment I hold L, I also input a jab with Rosalina. Luma will perform his jab as well, but it's delayed slightly. If I buffer a jab with both Little Mac and Rosalina before holding L, Luma's jab will come out neigh instantly with the one frame delay.

There is an extremely small window when hit stun begins that you still cannot control Luma, but it's insignificant because the input will be buffered for Luma, so he will attack as soon as possible. The obvious question is whether Luma can attack during such attacks as Sheik's Needle Storm which hit in rapid succession as well. I performed the same test with Sheik's Needle Storm and input a jab as soon as it hits Rosalina. Turns out Luma can only act once it is over because there are so many hits in quick succession over a long time. If you hit the attack button during Needle Storm's hit stun, Luma will perform a jab as soon as it ends.

Basically, we have found a slight setback which is usually negligible, but can make the mechanic slightly less viable against attacks which hit rapidly, yet in most cases, you'll not notice it.

tl;dr: 3DS Smart Bombs cause more hits. Rosalina cannot control Luma for an extremely small time when hit stun begins. If an attack is input the moment she goes into hit stun, it will be buffered for Luma until she is out of it. In actual matches it's most prominent with Sheik's Needle Storm.

 

[icraq]

Fascinating! I appreciate the work you've put in. That's quite interesting regarding the turnips as well. I think the Rosalina changes were particularly rushed last minute. Something of notable interest is patch 1.0.1 seems to strictly be a Rosalina nerf patch. Launch smash Wii u with version 1.0 has every other change except Rosas. E.g. shadow sneak/turnip/bomb cancel etc is all patched in 1.0.

I believe there's still some intricacies yet to be discovered with her Luma control mid hitstun. One thing I'm noticing is just a feel for when Luma is controllable after being thrown or hit (when attached), seemingly right before hitstun actually ends and right when it begins. I'm not entirely sure yet, but there is a window still.