Rosalina/Elsa Match-up discussion (Cosmic buster/Freezinate)

[Berserker.]

Discuss the Rosalina match up here

 

[Zacko]

Obligatory video:

 

[Garde Noir]

Obligatory video:

This video is really good at explaining the basics.

But I'm a Rosalina main, and a Shulk Secondary, so I'd love to explain it from the opposite angle.

When we face Shulk, the first thing we're waiting for is your art. Before then, we're fully aware that you can't engage. Your art is the first card played in the game, and we don't play fast, we play control. Our initiation will depend solely on that very first move. Of course it depends on the player, but I know when I see a Shulk, if I see Speed, I'm immediately going to shield and roll, whereas if I see Buster, I'm more likely to shield and punish. We treat Speed like you're going in for combos, and Buster like you're going in for Smashes. That isn't always true, but it's the defining idea. Not going with a Monado is fine, but you'll see the Rosalina do exactly what happened in the video, dodging and waiting. Your Monado is when the game begins.

Reiterations of the best parts of the video--
You need a good shield game, because all of our attacks are like Shulk's Smashes, two hitboxes. A lot of the time we can use that to our advantage, because Luma has a delay on some attacks, and during that delay we can F-Fall roll and try another attack

Rosalina is very defensive and the top and bottom of the stage is where we're most comfortable. Try and recover low, because no Rosalina can resist jumping off and trying for the gimp, we lose nothing from it with our recovery. One thing I've found is that if Rosalina is at higher percentages, to switch to smash and nair at the second jump before Air Slashing, the unnoticed hitbox can be crippling, and Rosalina is really light (4th lightest), making Smash Monado at percentages of 80 and upwards crippling to us if we hit the stage and bounce down.

But here are the mistakes--
Rosalina is NEVER useless. We have an entire thread about what to do when Luma isn't around, because we know that because of that, you'll try and engage. Everyones playstyle changes when Luma is gone, but we're obviously going to be more used to it than you are.

No, we don't have an approach, because we don't need one. Luma actually has a "walk" when we do our jab, and if we detach Luma and "walk her" that is an approach with us staying back.

Luma is a bigger deal to you than it is to us, and we know it's your goal to either engage Luma or Rosalina. We have strategies for either-- if you go for Rosalina, she will call Luma close, and will play far more defensively, rolling, Nair canceling,

But the biggest thing about this that I can't stand, is that we don't mind buster. What we hate is speed. Speed is better against us than Buster. Buster is good, but Speed is worse.




NEVER be above us. Our up-game is easy and far too good to test it until you're really familiar.

We love the air game, so a good way to bait us is using jump Monado and/or F-air approach. Fair is faster and has a hitbox that is lower later than Nair. The obvious second or so it will take us to jump after you usually doesn't give us time to react.

Our approach is actually very similar to Shulk's. A lot of Rosie's are now approaching with Fair and Nair, and our Bair works the same way, but is faster. Take the air game similarly to a ditto against a Jump Monado Shulk, except our UpAir is much more consistent.

UpSmash on Rosie is god. It has 7 frames of invincibility and a ton of power. However, we learn not to just toss it out, because it leaves Luma really vulnerable.

Learn the two styles of Rosie Play, together and apart. When Luma is apart, take her our quickly. Usually when Luma is apart we are more aggressive, and want more hitboxes in more places to control the stage better. The last thing you want is a meatbag with a hitbox that we can get to float just below the ledge throwing out hitboxes like it's a party. But when Rosie and Luma are together, we're more defensive. However, this doesn't mean less deadly. Adjust your style accordingly.

Spacing IS the name of the game. When it comes to aggressive combat, Shulk is pretty good, but Rosie is very good at defending. What we're not so good at is spacing, because unlike other characters that have set spacing, our spacing moves and is a yellow star. Yes we can put it wherever we want, but that kind of flexibility renders a lot of inexperienced, and several experienced players including myself at a disadvantage. I tend to hate sword characters because they're so good at that. Embrace your inner Marth, and get good at knowing just how long your attacks are.

Be wary of each of your forms. We learn to adjust pretty quickly, but nowhere near as quickly as Shulk can change. Use that to your advantage, and watch videos of Badada, who changing forms really quickly. That extreme change over such a short time will throw off any good players game unless they themselves have a halfway decent Shulk.

And by god, listen to Dunban: "You mustn't be careless"
The last thing you want is to just throw out hitboxes.


In my opinion, Rosie wins the matchup +1 because of her Aerial priority, gimping opportunity, and defensive gameplay but a good Rosie is harder to get to, and harder to find than a good Shulk.

 

[Parcheesy]

Rats...Looks like Garde Noir beat me to the punch explaining the finer points of the matchup. I'll try to add what I can without being repetitive.

I consider myself to be on the other end of the spectrum when it comes to Rosalina playstyles, very aggressive, and gimp heavy. In essence, I try to play the character like one would Captain Falcon; a very high pressure game centered on killing opponents faster than you're being killed. Rosalina definitely has the tools to support such a playstyle, being able to throw out hitboxes twice as fast with Luma's assistance, and a top notch recovery that allows her to go deeper for kills than the average opponent can stall.

First off, I don't think recovering low is Shulk's best bet at survival. There's nothing stopping Rosalina from dipping just as low ( even without a jump, she can dip into the lower blast zones and survive ), and the longer you spend offstage, the weaker attack it will take to score a gimp. I'd say if the Rosalina is going to chase offstage, and you have the time, try to recover quickly, using the massive hitbox of air slash to catch her before she can maneuver for the down air. It's important to note that Rosalina doesn't have great hitboxes to cover diagonally in front of, or behind her, so an air slash catching her from the side should be safer than coming up from directly below her and challenging the down air.

As for the Luma, I'm a firm believer that Shulk is the best in the game at dealing with it. The fact that he has access to a very safe nair that sends it in tumble, aided by two stances to either kill it quickly by percent or knockback just makes him a frustrating character to face. The Luma tends to 'clang' whenever it's hitboxes meets others ( even in the air ), so it tends to be incredibly unreliable against characters like Shulk that can throw out long lasting hitboxes. Shulk feels like a character that is least effected by Luma's shenanigans, and can take it out with no more than a passing thought. Even if it's not bothering you, removing the Luma removes a lot of Rosalina's kill power and range, stripping away a lot of her options.

From Rosalina's perspective, pivot tilts and smashes are amazing in this matchup. Because she can't directly challenge Shulk's top notch hitboxes, she's forced into catching him overcommitting to an aerial in order to land her attacks. Even when pressing the offense, sometimes the best way to land a smash is charge a distant opponent, then retreat and punish an attempted aerial.

Overall, I'd say the matchup is even. Shulk has an easy time removing Rosalina's core mechanic from play, but he also has the ideal recovery for Rosalina to gimp. The match should usually go to whichever player can seize a greater advantage during the Monado arts, and snowball a victory from that.

 

[Berserker.]

I'll talk about this in Shulk's POV. Probably won't add much also. I'll just tackle a few things about the arts and vision.

Shulk definitely has the ability to take the luma out of play with his range. Once luma is gone, I wouldn't say that Rosalina is completely helpless but she definitely loses a lot of options without the luma which Shulk can definitely take advantage of. His neutral game is played at mid-range but all his damage actually comes from going in at close range. This is why speed is the best option against SoRo. You can take advantage of your mobility and dash speed to get into her zone. I'd use buster if luma is around

Smash is unique in a sense that you can actually use this to dispose of luma quickly once you took down some of its HP, however using Smash art at the start of a match (or when both fighters are at 0%, luma still has full HP) won't benefit you that much, since Smash increases KBG (Not BKB). It DOES increase your attacks' knockback but not by much if you try using this on a Luma with full health, so damage the luma first then use smash art OR just stick to using buster and space your attacks against luma.

As for countering, don't touch normal vision when Luma is around. You're going to be going for forward vision since it's a lot faster, it deals more damage, and it's invincible.

I'd say the match up is even (+0)

 

[Parcheesy]

On the topic of vision, I've had several instances of it outright losing to R+L up air. Like...blue flash and everything, then Shulk just gets hit. It's a very sad case of counterplay failing to do its job. It should also be noted that countering a Luma hit won't apply the slow to Rosalina. While an invincible, unblockable lunge that covers a good deal of the stage is an impressive move on its own, it'll be very punishable to a Rosalina who can react quick enough. I'd say only use vision against kill moves, and only ones you see a mile away, because you're almost always betting your life on its success.

 

[Garde Noir]

Parcheesy makes some really good points. Don't disregard a word of what he says, especially for a more aggro Rosalina than I play. Be aware that the character plays really well on both sides of the spectrum. But the defensive one is one you should worry more about. Offensive Rosalinas leave tend to leave themselves more open for countering, but as Parcheesy says, allows them to be infinitely more daring in the gimp game.

Rosalina is about Stage Control, and if you let her have that, she will go in. maintain center stage, and use Nair canceling to forbid her from taking it back.

However, I disagree that shulk is the best at getting rid of Luma, top3 definite, but I see Falcons and Sonic do it much faster and more efficiently. Characters like that really mess up what we're used to, but isn't undefeatable. Switch between your arts often and make sure Rosalina doesn't get to know what your plan is. Switch to an art at random if you have to, just make sure the midn games are on your side.

 

[Parcheesy]

Oh uh...yeah. I probably should have mentioned in there somewhere that the matchup is significantly harder for an impatient Rosalina. I suppose that kinda goes hand in hand with the "Your attacks generally lose to Shulk's, so you need to bait and punish".

I'm not sure how effective it ultimately will be, but I've played around a lot with playing this matchup with Luma permanently away from Rosalina. The theory is Shulk is already aiming to hit Rosalina's shield with generally safe neutral and forward airs, and these attacks occasionally kill the Luma in the process, but with the Luma set out in front, Rosalina is free to punish any attempt at attack the Luma by swooping in the moment it's targeted. Now you basically play the standard puppeteer, except the Luma is functioning as live bait, which might actually be its strongest use against opponents who can keep it off the field for long periods of the match. Again, I wouldn't take this as actual advice, just something worth looking into if you want to play the matchup in a spicy way.

 

[Berserker.]

Decided to check the video thread for some Rosalina matches. Found this one. John used speed art here against luma mostly. Interesting results

I never went against an offensive Rosalina but playing defensively is the way to go against Shulk. Considering the lag on his attacks, it's probably better to just punish him at the right moment. I mean, the strategy against Rosalina still doesn't change. Shulk just has to play carefully, but it all still comes down to outranging luma and rushing down SoRo with speed art or buster if you're hungry for damage. It's a lot riskier though and you'd want to save buster for luma.

Should take note that buster attacks become safer on shield. Watch out for b-air on shield because it eats a lot of shield health. You can power shield RAR b-airs easily since it has a slow start up but Luma will still take damage. ACTUALLY, shield cautiously against buster. It's the ultimate shield bully. Safe on shield, pushes back shield, and eats shield health. Applies for all of his attacks in buster art

Spoiler

 

[erico9001]

I agree with using Speed in this MU. It gets me the best results.

I just have a few things to add.

--I don't think jab combo works unless delayed? I can't remember.

--Keep in mind her deceptively light weight. She's inbetween Pikachu and Kirby... fourth lightest in the game. Smash Art can kill her early.

--Watch out for the Uair. It has a very long range. If Rosalina is below you, don't expect to be able to challenge her Uair with your Fair or Dair.

--Grounded air slash stops working against Rosalina when SHULK is at 85% damage. Rosalina's damage does not matter. On the other hand, while in Monado Jump, Air Slash will always work.

--Don't be afraid of Rosalina's up B. It doesn't hurt you. This is an opportunity to hit her with an Fair if you can time it right. I've had success with that, at least. Nair may be good here too, but I haven't tried that yet.

--A commentator in the video Berserker01 posted said that she has a few frames before she snaps to the edge. A good option may be standing at the edge, waiting for her, and then using air slash. I have not tested this, though.

 

[Berserker.]

--I don't think jab combo works unless delayed? I can't remember.

You have to delay it

--A commentator in the video Berserker01 posted said that she has a few frames before you snaps to the edge. Maybe standing at the edge, waiting for her, and then using air slash is a good option. I have not tested this, though.

Yes. I've heard of this. I remember in one match when (name search dodging activated) when nairu used Zelda's d-tilt to stop Ke1tar0's Rosalina from ledge snapping with her recovery. Did it about 4(?) times in a row. It was hilarious. I'm probably going to experiment with this.

 

[Parcheesy]

If there's a move in Shulk's kit that can catch an opponent in their one frame ledge snap vulnerability, my money's on down smash.

Haven't actually had any Shulk's use that against me, but I've been obliterated by Sonic's down smash more than a few times, so it should be even easier for Shulk.

 

[erico9001]

If there's a move in Shulk's kit that can catch an opponent in their one frame ledge snap vulnerability, my money's on down smash.

Haven't actually had any Shulk's use that against me, but I've been obliterated by Sonic's down smash more than a few times, so it should be even easier for Shulk.

Well, Air Slash goes low, giving it a sort of scoop. It has a much easier time than D-Smash at striking opponents who are snapped onto the ledge without invincibility. Also, it is quicker on start up, at 10 frames rather than 18. It is great at killing, too.

The only issue with Air Slash is opponents are often not hit high enough by the first strike of the move to be hit by the second strike when they are heavy and/or tall. I don't know if the two strikes will connect with Rosalina here, because, although she is light, she is also tall. Also, it may be that it will not work when Shulk is at low damage, but as he gets damaged, Rage increases the knockback of the first strike enough for it to work.

 

[DrShankums]

If there's a move in Shulk's kit that can catch an opponent in their one frame ledge snap vulnerability, my money's on down smash.

Haven't actually had any Shulk's use that against me, but I've been obliterated by Sonic's down smash more than a few times, so it should be even easier for Shulk.

I think only the 3rd hit of dsmash would hit them, I'd put my money on an angled downward fsmash.

 

[Parcheesy]

As a big fan of science, I would love nothing more than going into a room with one of you Shulk players and testing this over and over until we find a conclusion. Although, now that I think about it, Shulk jumping off with Smash, and playing flyswatter with forward air might be better than any of his onstage options, but I suppose we'll see about that.

 

[DrShankums]

I'd go offstage for the kill. Her up b doesn't hurt us so I'd go for the fair. If she tries to recover low (which is what I want to happen) I RAR and attempt to stage spike her with the fair while she recovers.

 

[erico9001]

Shulk can indeed use Air Slash to scoop Rosalina up from when she is hanging the edge without the need for the rage effect. This works in all arts except Jump. You need to be somewhat spaced from the edge.

In Vanilla Shulk gets the red streak when she is at 92%. Really seems to kill at 90%, though.

You get the streak when she is at 72% while Smash Shulk. Again, should kill a little earlier.

 

[Berserker.]

Decided to tackle the match up except I'll be more in depth this time. Shulk's POV as always

Score: +0 (Even)


I'm going to discuss this by sections. First, I'll tackle the Luma mechanic, then I'll tackle what to avoid, then I'll tackle Solo Rosalina. I won't be covering recovering back on stage with Shulk since that's been explained already (Translation: I'm a lazy bum )

Luma

What Shulk wants to do at neutral is to take luma out of play. Luckily, he has the tools to actually perform this task very well (He's one of the best at doing the job). His disjoint (being the longest in the game) allows him to safely swat luma from a distance. His arts also manipulate the way he deals with luma. Speed art allows him to move back and forth with his great air mobility while f-airing, or n-airing the Luma. This is a much safer method of dealing with luma since you have the ability to easily retreat. Buster art allows him to quickly take out Luma thanks to its massive damage output. Additionally, buster also allows his attacks to be safe on shield so don't fear if you manage to hit luma while whacking on a shielded Rosalina (Unless she powershielded it). Smash art sort of cuts the slack of having to take down the health of luma since it increases knockback growth. Take note that Smash art will only deal significant knockback once luma's HP has been decreased by a certain amount

Regardless of which art Shulk is using, you'll be using f-air or n-air against Luma. N-air has shorter range that f-air but tipping it will deal more damage. F-air has slightly longer range and it comes out faster at Shulk's front. N-air is safer than f-air due to its low landing lag (12 frames) but f-air is more likely to hit both Rosalina and Luma. With speed, you can perform a retreating f-air and n-air to make them safe on shield. With buster, you need to FF F-air to make it safe. As for n-air, you either tip with it or FF the base hit to make it safe. Smash art is basically unsafe on shield no matter what you do but the main purpose of Smash art is to knock Luma off stage. At least you won't take more damage if you get hit (but you're easier to KO). You can go for b-air but make sure you tip it on Luma instead of landing it on both Rosalina and Luma. Chances are that the Rosalina player will powershield it easily since it has 18 frames of start up. Take note that only the FRONTAL hitbox appears at frame 18 so that back hitbox comes out much later. Using b-air is fine when Rosalina actually does something. If you see her use star bits, jab, f-tilt, or basically anything, you can use b-air's long range to punish both Rosalina and Luma simultaneously from a distance

What to avoid

What you want to AVOID like a plague is getting juggled by Rosalina. Shulk can't deal with juggling very well unless the said Shulk player has already gotten the timing of MALLC down and can FF Air dodge and cancel the landing lag via Monado art activation BUT let's disregard MALLC for now since it has yet to have a lot of exposure outside of Japan (9B <3). The best way to avoid getting into situations like this often are to maintain your space between Rosalina, Luma and yourself AND to never stay above Rosalina. So why shouldn't Shulk stay above Rosalina? First off, u-smash. Self-explanatory. Has invincibility and hits like a truck. One wrong move while you're above Rosalina, you're either dead or you're at a disadvantaged state since you're likely to still be above Rosalina which allows her to juggle Shulk with that other move that no one likes. Ever. Rosalina's u-air. You can't contest it with any of Shulk's attacks. Countering it won't work almost ALL the time. Also, it KO's at low percentages if you're near the vertical blast zone so take note of that

Solo Rosalina

Aaaah... Alright, there are a lot of things to take note of. First, Rosalina loses a lot of her options and she effectively loses 2 specials once Luma is out of the picture. She's forced to play defensively. Although her defense is still pretty good, it's not as outstanding as it was with luma helping her. At this point, Rosalinas are going to be playing REALLY defensively at this situation. How do you respond? With careful aggressive play. Any art except shield will work well once you KO'd Luma but if there's any art that Rosalina would dislike, it's speed art. That dash speed and aerial mobility becomes an amazing asset in bypassing Rosalina's zone. You can also opt for buster but approaching Rosalina will also prove to be not difficult but tricky. The thing with buster is that at neutral, you're always at mid-range. If you actually want to dish out a lot of damage, you'll need to get up close. The best way to transition into close range is to close in with FF N-air. Once you've landed that, go nuts. N-air to f-tilt deals 28% damage. N-air to grab allows for set ups into f-air or n-air or b-air for a lot of damage. Smash? Well, use it to kill. Boom. Not much to say about it. Jump art is basically like speed except you're at mid-air most of the time but you're going to have to mix up your options with jump art (Tomahawk then grab, empty hops, etc). Rosalina can handle aerial approaches very well thanks to her amazing up-game.

What I'm about to say also applies with luma in play btw but prepare to shield a lot because Rosalina's hitboxes last long. This is why I said careful aggressive play. Solo Rosalina's defense is still solid but you can definitely bypass it if you respect her hitboxes more. At speed art (no, actually at any form or art you're using but it's much better at speed so...), remember that you can dash to shield. This allows you to be more campy or bait-oriented with Shulk since it helps in halting your "approach."

It all comes down to being smart at approaching. She still has some attacks that demand respect but regardless, you can definitely and easily tip the match to your favor with luma out of the picture since Shulk definitely has the tools to rush down Solo Rosalina. It also helps that Shulk has a fairly easy time handling Luma. "Once Rosalina loses luma, make her feel that she's at a disadvantage"

Rosalina's off-stage! What now?

Rosalina's recovery doesn't have a hitbox so you can actually go ahead and swat her with f-air or b-air. You can also go for d-air but the timing is too strict. You can either go off-stage and edgeguard her with jump or smash art OR use air slash or a downward angled f-smash against Rosa's one frame ledge snap vulnerability. Any of the two work but getting f-smash requires you to use it quite early. Air slash is a lot faster since it comes out at frame 10 (f-smash comes out at frame 14) so you'll have an easier time with air slash

Whelp, you're getting juggled or you're at a disadvantage. What now?

This is where shield and jump become more important. Particularly, not a lot of smashers know the secret behind shield art. Thanks to the increased defense which allows Shulk to take ~33% less damage, and thanks to his increased weight, the hitsun he receives from any of Rosalina's attacks at mid to 0% is really small. This actually allows you to escape juggles since you can act out quickly off from hitsun.

You can also switch to jump to get out of juggles because jump height+air mobility. Only problem is that if you don't act out quickly, you'll get juggled even more because jump increases your falling speed so be quick on your toes


~~~~

TLDR : Step up your shield game, play at mid-range against both Rosaluma, and SoRo. Take advantage of your disjoint, handle the luma first, then take care of Rosalina. Approach smartly and bait Rosalina. Also, remember you have them arts to back you up at certain situations

TLDR 2 : Use against Rosalina (just kidding)

 

[Garde Noir]

I'd go offstage for the kill. Her up b doesn't hurt us so I'd go for the fair. If she tries to recover low (which is what I want to happen) I RAR and attempt to stage spike her with the fair while she recovers.

be careful about that though, our Up air is incredibly fast and out Nair and Fair has awkward hitboxes and helps us recover slightly besides having a ton of hitboxes. We aren't going to be surprised by you jumping off the ledge, as below the stage is a place we're really comfortable with, and stages with a slope recovery will be really easy for us to bounce KO you.

Decided to tackle the match up except I'll be more in depth this time. Shulk's POV as always

Score: +0 (Even)


I'm going to discuss this by sections. First, I'll tackle the Luma mechanic, then I'll tackle what to avoid, then I'll tackle Solo Rosalina. I won't be covering recovering back on stage with Shulk since that's been explained already (Translation: I'm a lazy bum )

Luma

What Shulk wants to do at neutral is to take luma out of play. Luckily, he has the tools to actually perform this task very well (He's one of the best at doing the job). His disjoint (being the longest in the game) allows him to safely swat luma from a distance. His arts also manipulate the way he deals with luma. Speed art allows him to move back and forth with his great air mobility while f-airing, or n-airing the Luma. This is a much safer method of dealing with luma since you have the ability to easily retreat. Buster art allows him to quickly take out Luma thanks to its massive damage output. Additionally, buster also allows his attacks to be safe on shield so don't fear if you manage to hit luma while whacking on a shielded Rosalina (Unless she powershielded it). Smash art sort of cuts the slack of having to take down the health of luma since it increases knockback growth. Take note that Smash art will only deal significant knockback once luma's HP has been decreased by a certain amount

Regardless of which art Shulk is using, you'll be using f-air or n-air against Luma. N-air has shorter range that f-air but tipping it will deal more damage. F-air has slightly longer range and it comes out faster at Shulk's front. N-air is safer than f-air due to its low landing lag (12 frames) but f-air is more likely to hit both Rosalina and Luma. With speed, you can perform a retreating f-air and n-air to make them safe on shield. With buster, you need to FF F-air to make it safe. As for n-air, you either tip with it or FF the base hit to make it safe. Smash art is basically unsafe on shield no matter what you do but the main purpose of Smash art is to knock Luma off stage. At least you won't take more damage if you get hit (but you're easier to KO). You can go for b-air but make sure you tip it on Luma instead of landing it on both Rosalina and Luma. Chances are that the Rosalina player will powershield it easily since it has 18 frames of start up. Take note that only the FRONTAL hitbox appears at frame 18 so that back hitbox comes out much later. Using b-air is fine when Rosalina actually does something. If you see her use star bits, jab, f-tilt, or basically anything, you can use b-air's long range to punish both Rosalina and Luma simultaneously from a distance

What to avoid

What you want to AVOID like a plague is getting juggled by Rosalina. Shulk can't deal with juggling very well unless the said Shulk player has already gotten the timing of MALLC down and can FF Air dodge and cancel the landing lag via Monado art activation BUT let's disregard MALLC for now since it has yet to have a lot of exposure outside of Japan (9B <3). The best way to avoid getting into situations like this often are to maintain your space between Rosalina, Luma and yourself AND to never stay above Rosalina. So why shouldn't Shulk stay above Rosalina? First off, u-smash. Self-explanatory. Has invincibility and hits like a truck. One wrong move while you're above Rosalina, you're either dead or you're at a disadvantaged state since you're likely to still be above Rosalina which allows her to juggle Shulk with that other move that no one likes. Ever. Rosalina's u-air. You can't contest it with any of Shulk's attacks. Countering it won't work almost ALL the time. Also, it KO's at low percentages if you're near the vertical blast zone so take note of that

Solo Rosalina

Aaaah... Alright, there are a lot of things to take note of. First, Rosalina loses a lot of her options and she effectively loses 2 specials once Luma is out of the picture. She's forced to play defensively. Although her defense is still pretty good, it's not as outstanding as it was with luma helping her. At this point, Rosalinas are going to be playing REALLY defensively at this situation. How do you respond? With careful aggressive play. Any art except shield will work well once you KO'd Luma but if there's any art that Rosalina would dislike, it's speed art. That dash speed and aerial mobility becomes an amazing asset in bypassing Rosalina's zone. You can also opt for buster but approaching Rosalina will also prove to be not difficult but tricky. The thing with buster is that at neutral, you're always at mid-range. If you actually want to dish out a lot of damage, you'll need to get up close. The best way to transition into close range is to close in with FF N-air. Once you've landed that, go nuts. N-air to f-tilt deals 28% damage. N-air to grab allows for set ups into f-air or n-air or b-air for a lot of damage. Smash? Well, use it to kill. Boom. Not much to say about it. Jump art is basically like speed except you're at mid-air most of the time but you're going to have to mix up your options with jump art (Tomahawk then grab, empty hops, etc). Rosalina can handle aerial approaches very well thanks to her amazing up-game.

What I'm about to say also applies with luma in play btw but prepare to shield a lot because Rosalina's hitboxes last long. This is why I said careful aggressive play. Solo Rosalina's defense is still solid but you can definitely bypass it if you respect her hitboxes more. At speed art (no, actually at any form or art you're using but it's much better at speed so...), remember that you can dash to shield. This allows you to be more campy or bait-oriented with Shulk since it helps in halting your "approach."

It all comes down to being smart at approaching. She still has some attacks that demand respect but regardless, you can definitely and easily tip the match to your favor with luma out of the picture since Shulk definitely has the tools to rush down Solo Rosalina. It also helps that Shulk has a fairly easy time handling Luma. "Once Rosalina loses luma, make her feel that she's at a disadvantage"

Rosalina's off-stage! What now?

Rosalina's recovery doesn't have a hitbox so you can actually go ahead and swat her with f-air or b-air. You can also go for d-air but the timing is too strict. You can either go off-stage and edgeguard her with jump or smash art OR use air slash or a downward angled f-smash against Rosa's one frame ledge snap vulnerability. Any of the two work but getting f-smash requires you to use it quite early. Air slash is a lot faster since it comes out at frame 10 (f-smash comes out at frame 14) so you'll have an easier time with air slash

Whelp, you're getting juggled or you're at a disadvantage. What now?

This is where shield and jump become more important. Particularly, not a lot of smashers know the secret behind shield art. Thanks to the increased defense which allows Shulk to take ~33% less damage, and thanks to his increased weight, the hitsun he receives from any of Rosalina's attacks at mid to 0% is really small. This actually allows you to escape juggles since you can act out quickly off from hitsun.

You can also switch to jump to get out of juggles because jump height+air mobility. Only problem is that if you don't act out quickly, you'll get juggled even more because jump increases your falling speed so be quick on your toes


~~~~

TLDR : Step up your shield game, play at mid-range against both Rosaluma, and SoRo. Take advantage of your disjoint, handle the luma first, then take care of Rosalina. Approach smartly and bait Rosalina. Also, remember you have them arts to back you up at certain situations

TLDR 2 : Use against Rosalina (just kidding)

much better and more concise, especially about the Shield. We'll be more likely to treat you like Ganon or Bowser in Sheild, simply because of the weight, when in truth Shulk will act nothing like them. Just be wary of how fast our recovery is, even if it doesn't have a hitbox, timing the hit takes a lot of practice.

Good Luck and Happy Playing! If anyone wants to test, feel free to PM a Rosalina. Most of us would be happy to play!

 

[Berserker.]

Thanks and I fixed the double post for you

 

[Chickenmcdonky]

Nice info. Don't get to fight good Rosas. Usually just cocky jerks on FG when I do.

 

[Berserker.]

Let's try to disregard the idea of using MALLC for now... Unless you guys want to theorize about it. Do what you want. I guess

 

[ampatron]

Let's try to disregard the idea of using MALLC for now... Unless you guys want to theorize about it. Do what you want. I guess

If we DO wanna talk about MAALC, could a Fair>lag cancel>Ftilt get rid of Luma safely? I imagine if Rosalina shields, she gets pushed back while we do this so it might be safe for us.
This might be useful near the edge to get rid of Luma early on.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sorry for bumping this, but Rosalina is analyzing Shulk at her match-up analysis thread right now. Shulk's discussion period will last until the end of 5/5, so if you have anything to contribute, this would be a good time to discuss the post 1.0.6 changes that the match-up may have received.

 

[mario123007]

Sorry for bumping this, but Rosalina is analyzing Shulk at her match-up analysis thread right now. Shulk's discussion period will last until the end of 5/5, so if you have anything to contribute, this would be a good time to discuss the post 1.0.6 changes that the match-up may have received.

Made my analysis already.

 

[Berserker.]

Made my analysis already.

You weren't really clear with whose favor you put it on though :x

Are you convinced enough to change it to 50:50?

 

[mario123007]

You weren't really clear with whose favor you put it on though :x

Are you convinced enough to change it to 50:50?

Urgh...it's really hard to tell.
But I think Shulk's horizontal movement are poorer without monado...so monado is the key to made this MU vary. However, I still think Rosalina has a slight advantage.

 

[Berserker.]

Urgh...it's really hard to tell.
But I think Shulk's horizontal movement are poorer without monado...so monado is the key to made this MU vary. However, I still think Rosalina has a slight advantage.

He has the monado activated almost 100% of the time though

Your gonna have to give a better reason than "horizontal movement" because that's solved by jump or speed and even then, his air speed is the 17th best in the game which isn't bad so

 

[mario123007]

He has the monado activated almost 100% of the time though

Your gonna have to give a better reason than "horizontal movement" because that's solved by jump or speed and even then, his air speed is the 17th best in the game which isn't bad so

slow attacks? I know his attacks have range and power, but it's so slow...

 

[Berserker.]

slow attacks? I know his attacks have range and power, but it's so slow...

Slow attacks are generally compensated by range. He's a spacing character by nature so his optimal playstyle is to play from a zone where in opponents won't beat him to the punch with his attacks

Theoretically (and in a tournament), that should be the way he approaches the match up against Rosaluma

I mean, yes. You can take advantage of that but you need to get in up-close first. This is where the baiting Shulk out part comes in when I told you guys how to deal with him. Baiting players is a big case of "easier said than done" though. Be creative with it.

 

[mario123007]

Slow attacks are generally compensated by range. He's a spacing character by nature so his optimal playstyle is to play from a zone where in opponents won't beat him to the punch with his attacks

Theoretically (and in a tournament), that should be the way he approaches the match up against Rosaluma

I mean, yes. You can take advantage of that but you need to get in up-close first. This is where the baiting Shulk out part comes in when I told you guys how to deal with him. Baiting players is a big case of "easier said than done" though. Be creative with it.

Yeah, and since slow attacks are predictable, I really had a hard time battling with characters who can counter.

 

[Berserker.]

A lot of things make the match up complex. We're taking 2 of the most complicated characters in the game.

Shulk is really known for being a good luma-remover and he can make SoRo take a lot of damage but what heavily balances it out is that his disadvantaged options can be severely exploited by Rosalina. The neutral can really go to anyone depending on how they play their cards. Which art will you use? How will you handle your luma? It's what makes the match up fun and feel even mostly. When you win, you feel like you've used your mechanics right and you outsmarted your opponent.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

In a default only situation, this can probably be one of those 50:50 moments, though when you take into account customizations, the custom specials that are used may impact how well Shulk can handle Rosalina.

Obviously, Shulk's lack of projectiles and a reflecting move can be a problem if Rosalina has Shooting Star Bit, but Shulk's Hyper Monado Arts could help him take out the Luma at a quicker rate if he uses the Buster stance. Similarly, if Rosalina has Luma Warp, Shulk can use Vision (or any of its custom variants) to counter the Luma when it hits him, and when combined with Smash, that can potentially leave Rosalina without a Luma for a while.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm not really experienced with the customs aspects of the MU. Er, my bad

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm not really experienced with the customs aspects of the MU. Er, my bad

Just to let you know in advance, the next time Rosalina analyzes Shulk, the scoring will be split between default specials only, and custom specials allowed. I'm also planning on doing away with the ratio system that I've been using, and switch to a scoring system that's similar to the one at Shulk's match-up directory thread; +1 for small advantage, +2 for moderate advantage, etc..

 

[Berserker.]

Just to let you know in advance, the next time Rosalina analyzes Shulk, the scoring will be split between default specials only, and custom specials allowed. I'm also planning on doing away with the ratio system that I've been using, and switch to a scoring system that's similar to the one at Shulk's match-up directory thread; +1 for small advantage, +2 for moderate advantage, etc..

Good choice~

It's a lot simpler this way. I'm glad people are beginning to think that this is the way to go.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Good choice~

It's a lot simpler this way. I'm glad people are beginning to think that this is the way to go.

Yeah I only started with the ratio system, since the games were still pretty new when I started Rosalina's match-up discussions. But now that it's becoming clear that no match-up is ever going to be at a 100:0 or 0:100 dilemma, it's getting to a point where a more simplified scoring system should take over. Of course, these changes won't officially take over on Rosalina's side until June, since Rosalina still has a few more non-DLC characters to analyze.

 

[erico9001]

so for customs shulk, dash vision helps. I actually got a KO on a Rosalina with dash vision against a Rosalina who used the shooting star bit. Otherwise, dash vision is still pretty good for the MU. Can also counter Luma from afar with it.

 

[Virum]

Bumping this thread as I may have thought of a potentially solid anti Rosa strat. Though I've yet to apply it in practice, there are a good handful of very solid UK Rosalina mains that I can play against to experiment with this.

So our typical approach before was to opt for Buster to attempt to dispose of the Luma by dealing a ton of damage to it. This imo works better in theory than in practice as trying to deplete Luma's HP is never the most efficient way to deal with it, especially if it means putting yourself in a punishable position just to tack on damage. However, what if we started our games in Smash. Y'all heard me, possibly the ONE match-up where Smash has actual utility beyond increased kill potential. Allow me to elaborate further.

Shulk's vanilla moveset (and consequently his moveset in Jump, Speed, Shield and Buster) is largely incapable of knocking away the Luma at max HP due to Luma having essentially a knockback threshold. If an attack does below a certain amount of knockback it will only flinch the Luma as opposed to sending it away, giving it overall less vulnerability and leaving it in a more threatening position. Only Jab 3, Dash Attack, UTilt, USmash and DSmash can knock the Luma away in all arts except Smash. However, in Smash Shulk's ENTIRE MOVESET is capable of knocking the Luma away while it's at max HP. This means you can do something safe like a spaced FAir or BAir and instantly separate Rosa from her Luma, potentially killing the Luma right off the bat. Once Rosa's alone you switch back to your standard Speed/Jump/Buster and generally attempt to overwhelm her with your superior power and disjoints. Keep a mental note of when the Luma is going to respawn so you can optimally dispose of it in Smash upon re entry.

In order to optimise how we approach this match-up we need to optimise how we dispose of the Luma because solo Rosa is no where near as much of a threat. This strategy may just well be the stepping stone to doing that.

EDIT: This doesn't mean we should underestimate solo Rosa. She does still have large hitboxes, good frame data on her tilts and generally solid defensive options overall. One has to still pace themselves correctly so they can capitalise on the Luma's absence.

 

[Berserker.]

Bumping this thread as I may have thought of a potentially solid anti Rosa strat. Though I've yet to apply it in practice, there are a good handful of very solid UK Rosalina mains that I can play against to experiment with this.

So our typical approach before was to opt for Buster to attempt to dispose of the Luma by dealing a ton of damage to it. This imo works better in theory than in practice as trying to deplete Luma's HP is never the most efficient way to deal with it, especially if it means putting yourself in a punishable position just to tack on damage. However, what if we started our games in Smash. Y'all heard me, possibly the ONE match-up where Smash has actual utility beyond increased kill potential. Allow me to elaborate further.

Shulk's vanilla moveset (and consequently his moveset in Jump, Speed, Shield and Buster) is largely incapable of knocking away the Luma at max HP due to Luma having essentially a knockback threshold. If an attack does below a certain amount of knockback it will only flinch the Luma as opposed to sending it away, giving it overall less vulnerability and leaving it in a more threatening position. Only Jab 3, Dash Attack, UTilt, USmash and DSmash can knock the Luma away in all arts except Smash. However, in Smash Shulk's ENTIRE MOVESET is capable of knocking the Luma away while it's at max HP. This means you can do something safe like a spaced FAir or BAir and instantly separate Rosa from her Luma, potentially killing the Luma right off the bat. Once Rosa's alone you switch back to your standard Speed/Jump/Buster and generally attempt to overwhelm her with your superior power and disjoints. Keep a mental note of when the Luma is going to respawn so you can optimally dispose of it in Smash upon re entry.

In order to optimise how we approach this match-up we need to optimise how we dispose of the Luma because solo Rosa is no where near as much of a threat. This strategy may just well be the stepping stone to doing that.

EDIT: This doesn't mean we should underestimate solo Rosa. She does still have large hitboxes, good frame data on her tilts and generally solid defensive options overall. One has to still pace themselves correctly so they can capitalise on the Luma's absence.

I actually tried this just now. Smash art is amazing for quick disposal of the luma. Worked for me but idk. How is it going for you?

I managed to keep Luma out of the picture for a huge percentage of the match