Rosalina against speed

[Garde Noir]

So Rosaluma has been out for quite some time now, and tournies are starting around, and tier lists are being speculated. Smash 4 is finally being accepted in the community, and Rosalina seems to be holding her own.

However, other characters are receiving the same treatment, and while Rosalina is benefiting from spacing and defensive playing, Smash is reverting back to its original ace in the hole-- speed.

Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, Diddy and Greninja all grace the top of every tier list, with one thing in common-- lightning fast combos and reflexes.

So how can Rosalina, calm and collected I prefer to think than slow, compete?

Well, it's less speed and more combos.

For example, I think Sheik is Rosalina's hardest match-up, so she will be mostly who I ask about, while I tend to have a good grasp against the ZSS matchup, being who my training partner is.

But with Sheik's speed, combos, quick out of shield options, new and improved projectiles, I think the favor falls in the triforce lap over the galaxies.

Any suggestions from Rosalina mains on how to deal with speed? This is more of a think tank than a question. I can offer advice on ZSS if needed.

 

[Ceph]

As far as speed goes I find the difficult part to be not the combos, but rather how quickly they can take out my Luma. That's one of my weak points, I'm working on keeping him alive longer.

As far as advice goes, I'd say a very patient game will win the match, because you have to wait for the opponent to make a laggy move to punish; otherwise 9/10 times you'll be the one getting read and shelved easily.

I made that metaphor just now I'm so proud hehe

edit: i meant metaphor not pun, doh

 

[Zonderion]

Shiek is by far my hardest match up. Sheik seems to have very few punishable moves and the OOS options make her very difficult. I think in all of my For Glory matches, I have won one against Sheik, and I could tell they were not that good.

Shiek's F-Tilt locks us with several hits, probably because of Rosalina's height. Add on to that great recovery for Shiek. A smart Sheik player will get rid of Luma very quickly, and that diminishes our range and damage. I do my best to keep Luma with me during these matches, but I hate that Luma is vulnerable when I spot/roll dodge.

Any suggestions would be great!

 

[ChikoLad]

Sheik is literally helpless against Rosalina once you get her in the air. U-air juggling for days.

As long as you play hard to get at first, then get her in the air, you're fine. Needles are actually quite easy to dodge around.

 

[Zonderion]

Sheik is literally helpless against Rosalina once you get her in the air. U-air juggling for days.

As long as you play hard to get at first, then get her in the air, you're fine. Needles are actually quite easy to dodge around.

The problem I run into trying to juggle Shiek is her dair. It comes out fairly quick and little ending lag. The best I can do is try and bait it and then land a punish, but if I'm not quick enough I get f-tilted...

 

[kyutwo]

I've been using Rosalina a lot. I can say that Sheik doesn't give me nearly as much as trouble as other fighters, like Yoshi. The Sheik players I've faced usually conform to a set pattern. At long-range, use Needles. At mid-range, either Bouncing Fish, Side-Dodge forward, Run forward, or jump (rarely happens). At close-range, if they ran into close-range, expect dash attack, short hop F-air, or Side-Dodge forward. If they Side-Dodged forward into close-range, expect F-tilt or a Smash Attack. If they jumped into close-range, expect F-air, or Double Jump and THEN expect F-air or D-air. Either way, it's safe to block while Sheik is close range. Also, Sheik's KO potential is low compared to Rosalina. In fact, I recently KO'd a Sheik at 55% while using Rosalina.

 

[Zonderion]

I've been using Rosalina a lot. I can say that Sheik doesn't give me nearly as much as trouble as other fighters, like Yoshi. The Sheik players I've faced usually conform to a set pattern. At long-range, use Needles. At mid-range, either Bouncing Fish, Side-Dodge forward, Run forward, or jump (rarely happens). At close-range, if they ran into close-range, expect dash attack, short hop F-air, or Side-Dodge forward. If they Side-Dodged forward into close-range, expect F-tilt or a Smash Attack. If they jumped into close-range, expect F-air, or Double Jump and THEN expect F-air or D-air. Either way, it's safe to block while Sheik is close range. Also, Sheik's KO potential is low compared to Rosalina. In fact, I recently KO'd a Sheik at 55% while using Rosalina.

Thanks for the tips. Can you tell me where at on the stage you and Sheik were when you KO'd at 55%? Oh, and what move did you use?

 

[kyutwo]

Thanks for the tips. Can you tell me where at on the stage you and Sheik were when you KO'd at 55%? Oh, and what move did you use?

Let's see. It was Orbital Gate Assault (FD Version). The finishing move was U-air. Granted Sheik was already airborne, but she was airborne because of Rosalina's charged Up Smash, and Sheik was only at 34% before getting hit with it. Imagine how high the Up Smash must have sent her before one little U-air could KO her. I was surprised myself.

I don't have the full replay uploaded yet, but I did show what happened in the Rosalina Combo Video I made if you want to see it.

 

[Garde Noir]

Sheik is literally helpless against Rosalina once you get her in the air. U-air juggling for days.

As long as you play hard to get at first, then get her in the air, you're fine. Needles are actually quite easy to dodge around.

The problem I run into trying to juggle Shiek is her dair. It comes out fairly quick and little ending lag. The best I can do is try and bait it and then land a punish, but if I'm not quick enough I get f-tilted...

Problem is the extreme buff Air dodging got in that it doesn't stun you. Rosalina's Up Air is pretty predictable, and it's difficult to get high enough to hit Sheik with Up-air to kill before she regains balance and uses high-priority, high knockback D-air. Any sheik that knows what they're doing (any sheik that's played Melee or P:M) knows that movement comes on the ground, and punishment is in the air. They won't just bounce around in the air like ZSS will, which just begs for juggles and such. Up-air also has a sweetspot as well, which, if you miss, just gives Sheik more time as you have to wait for your stupid Halo to disappear (I'm sorry Halo, I didn't mean it, I love you.) Even sour spotting it means you have to hit it again, which is pretty difficult when you count in air-dodges and Rosalina's higher floatiness in comparison to Sheik's, which is far more controlled.

Sheik's Down Air is similar Zero-suit, except ZSS's ending lag when you dodge is longer, because ZSS has a spread hitbox as she hits the ground, which is pretty easy to dodge and punish. The fewer landing lag frames for Sheik doesn't allow us to punish nearly as easily. @ Zonderion , this goes back to what you were asking. ZSS's ending lag is high enough that you can hit a smash move, or a dash attack pretty consistently, but Sheik's is considerably less, leaving her a few frames to roll, where she obviously has the advantage, as we're in animation and can't do anything but close our eyes and hope our reciprocating roll comes out in time. Against Sheik, it often doesn't. Gameplay against Sheik is hard, and I'm not sure trying to rely on Up-air is ALWAYS to best option. I'd still like to hope for some more consistent strats.

I've been using Rosalina a lot. I can say that Sheik doesn't give me nearly as much as trouble as other fighters, like Yoshi. The Sheik players I've faced usually conform to a set pattern. At long-range, use Needles. At mid-range, either Bouncing Fish, Side-Dodge forward, Run forward, or jump (rarely happens). At close-range, if they ran into close-range, expect dash attack, short hop F-air, or Side-Dodge forward. If they Side-Dodged forward into close-range, expect F-tilt or a Smash Attack. If they jumped into close-range, expect F-air, or Double Jump and THEN expect F-air or D-air. Either way, it's safe to block while Sheik is close range. Also, Sheik's KO potential is low compared to Rosalina. In fact, I recently KO'd a Sheik at 55% while using Rosalina.

Yoshi gives me little trouble. His rolls are predictable, the eggs and D-special-able, and help you stall in the air. Against Yoshi, you ALWAYS need Luma close, as he'll try combos, in which case you need to Smash-DI, which not only breaks you slightly out of combos, but it calls Luma to attack, and if Luma hits, you're out of the combo and he's the one flying away. What's terrifying about Yoshi now is his new Aerials. Beating Yoshi is about stage control. He'll ALWAYS be off his game because eggs are no longer a safe option.

 

[kyutwo]

I did some analysis with Rosalina's knockback against Sheik and vice-versa. With a fully charged Luma Smash at the edge of the stage, Rosalina can KO Sheik while under 50%. It's around 46%. Sheik needs Rosalina around 55% to KO her with a fully charged Smash at the edge. I find it easy to get charged Smash attacks on Sheik by punishing her movements. Sheik players like to use combos so it's unlikely they'll get the opportunity.

 

[kyutwo]

Yoshi gives me little trouble. His rolls are predictable, the eggs and D-special-able, and help you stall in the air. Against Yoshi, you ALWAYS need Luma close, as he'll try combos, in which case you need to Smash-DI, which not only breaks you slightly out of combos, but it calls Luma to attack, and if Luma hits, you're out of the combo and he's the one flying away. What's terrifying about Yoshi now is his new Aerials. Beating Yoshi is about stage control. He'll ALWAYS be off his game because eggs are no longer a safe option.

The Yoshis I face rarely roll. The last Yoshi match I had, the Yoshi only Side-Dodged three times, all backward. The Yoshis I face take full advantage of his aerials to pressure and punish Rosalina. Even if I block, B-air and D-air eats up the shield and hits me anyway. If I Side-dodge forward, Yoshis read it and punish with the attack they intended to pressure with. If I Side-dodge backward, I'm out of harms way, but too far away to punish. Though Rosalina can Down-Special against Yoshi's Eggs, I advise against doing so. Yoshi players want Rosalina to use Gravitational Pull so they can get a free punish by rushing in. It was exactly what the last guy tried while I was at the edge. I knew what he wanted me to do so I just did Gravitational Pull one time to see his reaction. He immediately rushed in to punish which I tried to avoid, but he read me and punished my evasion. Towards the end, he tried the tactic again, but I refused to use Gravitational Pull, which forced him to get closer to pressure instead, hoping to punish my Forward Side-dodge which I also refused to do because I knew it was what he was waiting for. Yoshi's Dash Attack is devastating to Rosalina as it not only stuns Luma but goes through and passed Rosalina making it hard to punish. But the biggest advantage is Yoshi's air speed. Most Yoshi players stay close to me in the air and wait to punish the air dodge. One Yoshi stayed with me as I descended off stage knowing he can recover as well as I can. Another perfectly read the timing and angle of my Up-Special and Meteor Smashed me in the middle of it. For me, beating Yoshi players isn't about stage control. It's about understanding the Yoshi player. Once I've learned their pattern, I know how to punish it.

 

[Zonderion]

Let's see. It was Orbital Gate Assault (FD Version). The finishing move was U-air. Granted Sheik was already airborne, but she was airborne because of Rosalina's charged Up Smash, and Sheik was only at 34% before getting hit with it. Imagine how high the Up Smash must have sent her before one little U-air could KO her. I was surprised myself.

I don't have the full replay uploaded yet, but I did show what happened in the Rosalina Combo Video I made if you want to see it.

Absolutely, I would love to see the video. I take it you sweet spotted with Luma on the up-air to get the kill?

Problem is the extreme buff Air dodging got in that it doesn't stun you. Rosalina's Up Air is pretty predictable, and it's difficult to get high enough to hit Sheik with Up-air to kill before she regains balance and uses high-priority, high knockback D-air. Any sheik that knows what they're doing (any sheik that's played Melee or P:M) knows that movement comes on the ground, and punishment is in the air. They won't just bounce around in the air like ZSS will, which just begs for juggles and such. Up-air also has a sweetspot as well, which, if you miss, just gives Sheik more time as you have to wait for your stupid Halo to disappear (I'm sorry Halo, I didn't mean it, I love you.) Even sour spotting it means you have to hit it again, which is pretty difficult when you count in air-dodges and Rosalina's higher floatiness in comparison to Sheik's, which is far more controlled.

Sheik's Down Air is similar Zero-suit, except ZSS's ending lag when you dodge is longer, because ZSS has a spread hitbox as she hits the ground, which is pretty easy to dodge and punish. The fewer landing lag frames for Sheik doesn't allow us to punish nearly as easily. @ Zonderion , this goes back to what you were asking. ZSS's ending lag is high enough that you can hit a smash move, or a dash attack pretty consistently, but Sheik's is considerably less, leaving her a few frames to roll, where she obviously has the advantage, as we're in animation and can't do anything but close our eyes and hope our reciprocating roll comes out in time. Against Sheik, it often doesn't. Gameplay against Sheik is hard, and I'm not sure trying to rely on Up-air is ALWAYS to best option. I'd still like to hope for some more consistent strats.

Yes, I have a much easier time with ZSS. Baiting her Dair is easily punishable, and then I will sometimes pretend to bait, but actually follow through once they start to realize I was baiting, and not Dair. The toughest thing about ZSS is when they dash attack. Always stuns luma and usually ends on the back side of Rosalina. For the most part, I can handle ZSS.

 

[kyutwo]

Absolutely, I would love to see the video. I take it you sweet spotted with Luma on the up-air to get the kill?

Yeah, I tried to hit that sweet spot on U-air. Just didn't expect it to KO. The video is here youtube.com/watch?v=-HT9dYbnIj8 Since I haven't made 10 posts yet, I'm not allowed to post URLs so that will have to do. Didn't feel like making 10 pointless posts just to be able to post a URL. If all else fails, you can search youtube for "NOT the Momma Rosalina Combo Video." That one's mine. The Sheik match is close to the end of the video.

 

[Zonderion]

Sweet video man! It definitely gave me some ideas of how to tweak my game play a little. That kill on Sheik tho.... very nice! Nice throwback to the dinosaurs tv show!