Robin Tier Placement Discussion

[Fire Tactician]

Spoiler

Expect Robin to be NERFED in the Wii U version.

I wouldn't be too sure about this. Like others said, he looks good, but definitely not too overpowered like Meta Knight did in Brawl. With the game likely coming out in November, they would only have one month left after about one month of Japanese only feedback to rebalance the entire roster before the game is released. Unless someone stands out as a massively superior character early on, characters will likely only have small tweaks made to them between releases.

 

[spd12]

For those worried about playing a character that is going to be considered overpowered, overdone, and hated, keep in mind that this is basically Day -5 stuff (as opposed to Day 1, or even Day 0).

Robin could very well be considered extremely good at low/surface level play but be found to have some real issues in higher levels of play as the metagame develops. It's just way too soon to say.

I'd instead just be happy that s/he is a fresh, interesting character who translates Fire Emblem's mechanics into Smash very well. If spells don't seem like they run out so easily, it could well be that the tomes simply do not regenerate in the release build once they're expended (barring being KO'd) unlike what might have been said before, but this is just an educated guess.

 

[Sayjin]

Spoiler

Expect Robin to be NERFED in the Wii U version.

Sorry, no. I'll trust Sakurai's months of playtesting and balancing over someone's handful of minutes of demoing on a system they're not used to using the controls with.

For those worried about playing a character that is going to be considered overpowered, overdone, and hated, keep in mind that this is basically Day -5 stuff (as opposed to Day 1, or even Day 0).

Robin could very well be considered extremely good at low/surface level play but be found to have some real issues in higher levels of play as the metagame develops. It's just way too soon to say.

Exactly. For all we know, the characters that are being espoused as super good now are only being said as such because they're easy to use, not because they're inherently strong.

 

[Hong]

For those worried about playing a character that is going to be considered overpowered, overdone, and hated, keep in mind that this is basically Day -5 stuff (as opposed to Day 1, or even Day 0).

Robin could very well be considered extremely good at low/surface level play but be found to have some real issues in higher levels of play as the metagame develops. It's just way too soon to say.

Indeed.

Almost every newcomers seems "overpowered" to people. Of course it's going to seem that way. When you are unfamiliar with the matchup, any character in any game ever can seem absolutely terrifying. When people were flipping out over Palutena's up smash, I wanted to bash my face against a wall.

 

[MindlessFire]

Actually ignore whatever I just posted earlier. Ben Weinhoffer wasn't even at one of the events. He claims that it was just one of his sources feeding him information and we don't know if his source is competent in smash bros or not.

 

[Iron Maw]

Hey everyone, new blood here!

Just wanted to share my 2 cents in this topic.

At this early stage of game caring about whether a character is overpowered or not is definitely pretty silly. There isn't much value in any truly serious tier talk when there so little information and besides it would need be at least year after release before placement considerations can be made. We what should be taking from the impressions is that Robin is definitely a strong character has the potential to placed high if not at the top. It's rather counterproductive to wish otherwise. Besides potential is not a guarantee, just it a possibitly.

Regardless of where he will be in the long run I myself will continue to use him. If more people flock to him because of his high placement in the Tier list so be it, its only natural it that does. Not every person needs to be interested in a character for the same reasons anyway. I see it as bring more exposure to Robin and eventually leading to folks getting to know and becoming invested in him beyond his ranking. Even if they do leave for whatever shallow reasoning I'm confident that Robin well have plenty of fans who will appreciate his/her character and playstyle come what may.

 

[Knighto]

Yep, I agree with the thought that he looks good on the surface, but who knows how he will do in a competitive environment. He seems to have good nuetral game tools, but I'm not sure the punish game is all there. Will definitely have to wait until launch to see just how good he is.

 

[LiamMail]

Triple S Tier
Spells?
Swords?
Smash Attack in mid-air?
Good Recovery?

 

[Trickerhere]

Hey guys if you want to hear more about Robin check out Sethlon's twitter he talks about Robin a lot.

 

[Raziek]

Here are my thoughts on Robin after doing all my research:

Prediction: High Tier, possibly better.

Robin has a LOT of great tools, but also has some defined weaknesses.

In terms of basic properties, Robin is pretty average. Feels somewhat light. Rolls, Shield Size and spot-dodge are all great, air-dodge is fine. Run-speed is a little sluggish, but not the worst. Also very floaty, so you shouldn't have any trouble recovering with Robin thanks to how far you can just float back after being hit.

Robin's Nair is SOOOO close to being amazing. If you could fast-fall it and have it AC, or if it had just a bit more range (or used the Levin Sword), it would be a real move. As it stands, not a great one. Dair is basically a meteor and that's it, the move is otherwise unimpressive in terms of hitbox/endlag. Fair is a bit awkward to use due to the slight start-up, but has a great angle and is very strong.

Bair and Uair are godlike. Bair comes out amazingly fast and has a fantastic hitbox, as well as being one of Robin's primary reliable kill options. Uair is like Marth Uair except it has ridiculous killpower. These two aerials will be the bulk of Robin's spacing game.

Robin's Smashes are all fairly punishable, but are strong and reliable killing tools that will see earlier kills than Bair/Uair. D-Smash is a close-range punish with less range (but more payoff) then F-Smash, while F-Smash will be the 'all purpose' ground punish and 'spacing' Smash. U-Smash doesn't have much of a grounded hitbox, so should be reserved for trapping landings and trying to catch jumps.

In the tilt department, Robin's U-tilt is ALMOST amazing. It's fast and has a great vertical hitbox, but is really lacking in horizontal hitbox, so its use as a grounded tool is going to be a bit limited outside of traps. F-tilt and D-tilt are the stand-outs here. F-tilt is fairly fast and has great range, and is usable out of a dash thanks to pivot canceling. D-tilt is ridiculously fast and recovers damn near instantly, but has very short range to compensate. It might be safe, or close to it, even on shield, but I'd need better testing tools to be sure.

Robin's standing grab is butts. The range is very poor. Dash-grab is a bit better, but still pretty laggy. Stick to pivot-grabbing, it has a much better range. His throws are in general fairly weak. You'll want to use them for positioning, and D-throw for follow-ups at low-mid percents on some characters. B-throw eventually becomes a kill move, none of the others do.

Nosferatu is going to be super important. In conjunction with his Bair/Uair, Nosferatu will form the core of his mix-up as it is a command grab, allowing him to beat shields, which are the best answer to his aerial game. Nosferatu has a long respawn timer (4 uses, 40 seconds), so this will take some careful management. All 3 versions of Nosferatu are good, having different trade-offs. N1 is the fastest, but is point-blank and gets middle amounts of damage. N2 hits farther away, but has a dead-spot, and does much less damage. N3 has a huge hitbox and does the most damage, but has no healing and longest start-up. I think the choice will be between N1 and N3, depending on how much you value start-up vs. hitbox size.

I'm still unsure how I feel on Arcfire. It's slow enough that you can react and jump, and if you use it while rising from a jump, it doesn't reach the ground to ignite. I'm having a hard time coming up with situations where it would be super reliable, but I'd also need time to try it against human opponents, and I also haven't unlocked its custom moves, so that could give a much more usable version.

Elwind is not an offensive tool, but will be fine as a recovery. I'd say go with Elwind1 unless you're in a match-up where you'll be sent to the bottom corner, because Elwind 3 is definitely much easier to edge-guard, I think. Warrants testing vs. humans.

Thunder and its variants will be the core of Robin's zoning. You're going to want to play a keep-away game that revolves around spacing the opponents out with Bair/Uair while racking up damage w/ Thunder variants. Thoron is an excellent punishing tool that can tack on 10 damage any time they press an unsafe button, and Arcthunder can be followed up on due to its slow travel time.

Robin seems to struggle the most when enemies get 'inside' the Levin Sword range. He doesn't have much in the way of 'get off me' tools, so you'll need to rely on Jab, Tilts and rolls/shield to try to find your way back to that optimal mid/long range game that I think is going to be core to Robin's playstyle.

@C.J. @Shaya @~Firefly~

 

[Folt]

@ Raziek : Excellent. This is exaclty what I wanted to hear, and I'm glad that his Thunder and Nosferatu spells are good tools.

 

[Jackson]

I'm feeling mid tier. The character looks to have a solid camping/spacing game but I feel like Robin will have trouble dealing with opponents who are good at getting in on him/her.

Regardless, this will probably be my main or at least one of them. A lot of fighters look awesome. I'll be probably be sticking around the Robin boards a lot.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Robin's definitely one I'm going to main. I don't like the idea of deciding on tiers so soon, though. Like Hong and others have said, its too soon to judge how powerful a character is. The main thing is, Robin is easy to use, and the biggest problems people saw in Robin: Tomes and the Levin Sword recharge very quickly. The main thing is, we know Robin isn't going to be BAD. Robin is pretty good overall, but we can't be certain Robin is going to be OP. Even if Robin is OP for whatever reason, its not going to affect me, I play as characters I like, whether they're good or not.

 

[Raziek]

I wouldn't say Robin is easy. Spells will take some learning on when they're best to use, and management is not insignificant. Won't be difficult, per se, but we're not talking Bowser-easy here.

 

[spd12]

Thanks for the overall analysis.

Robin not having many great options when being pressured is going to be huge, I think. I doubt they will ultimately be Metaknight-tier domination, but still pretty solid so long as they can keep some sort of distance (or otherwise just manage to stay on the offensive in some fashion).

Can't wait to see how the matchups develop as more people grab the game and play it.

 

[Senario]

Hmm doesn't seem to have a lot of combo options due to levin sword's properties of launching. Launching is good but I think he will be more a character that you keep away most of the time with and then just try to land a hit with levin sword.

Still too early to put him in a solid spot but first impressions put him at average for me. Sheik on the other hand...Sheik is really freaking good.

Also, Levin sword loses uses on miss =/ So you can't throw out a bair for spacing like you could in melee with throwing out some moves even if they wouldn't hit just so you can cover options.

 

[Iron Maw]

Thanks for the assessment Raziek, he's shaping up very well without having too much way of glaring drawbacks.

I wouldn't say Robin is easy. Spells will take some learning on when they're best to use, and management is not insignificant. Won't be difficult, per se, but we're not talking Bowser-easy here.

I'd say he someone who's easy to play at base, but hard to play/master effectively. If that makes sense.

Hmm doesn't seem to have a lot of combo options due to levin sword's properties of launching. Launching is good but I think he will be more a character that you keep away most of the time with and then just try to land a hit with levin sword.

I don't think the Levin Sword was ever designed to be so much as combo tool as it is a finisher. The Bronze Sword looks more suited for that (hence the low-knackback) as far melee options go.

 

[Senario]

Thanks for the assessment Raziek, he's shaping up very well without having too much way of glaring drawbacks.



I'd say he someone who's easy to play at base, but hard to play/master effectively. If that makes sense.



I don't think the Levin Sword was ever designed to be so much as combo tool as it is a finisher. The Bronze Sword looks more suited for that (hence the low-knackback) as far melee options go.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised though. A lot of things in smash 4 don't really combo all that well due to either knockback reasons or lag reasons. Definitely not as fluid as melee or project M in terms of options of what to do for combos. It is very limited to this move follows up on this move and so on. A very linear way of doing combos.

But he might still be good if only because he is one of the few characters that can kill at a reasonable percent. Blast zones are too far out in this game and people's recovery is too dang good. This game feels less of a combo based game and more of "who hits harder so you can put the opponent in a disadvantageous off stage position". There are combos, but they are woefully unimpressive in terms of effect due to how little everything launches.

 

[Delzethin]

Aren't you focusing a little too much on comboability? The way you describe this game's playstyle is like a backhanded compliment, almost saying it's worse because it's not a copy of Melee or Project M. It's antagonizing and non-constructive.

I wouldn't call recovery overpowered overall--it seems around Brawl strength on average, but the more distant blast zones mean that having good recovery matters more than ever and that powerful, high-knockback attacks have greater importance. It's not worse, it's just different...although it does give powerhouse characters more of a niche now, compared to previous games where they could never measure up to the fragile speedsters without exploits like Dedede's chaingrab or Snake's completely insane tilt range.

Anyway, the point is, SSB4 is looking varied enough where a character doesn't need to be combo-heavy to be good. Robin does have the means to chain some attacks together (Holy hell, those tilts!), but his advantage (Or...asset? >_>) lies in how many different things he can do. He has fast and slow attacks mapped to the same buttons, four projectiles in one that all do different things, the ability to zone, apply pressure, and then siphon health from you if you rely too much on your shield. And throughout all of that, you still have to remember that unlike nearly every other character, he can pull a killing move out on you at literally any time.

Robin's strength lies in how easily his abilities let his players be a step ahead of any opponents. With the right moves and some strategy, you can put them in a position where all they can do is guess what you'll do next and pray that they're right.

 

[Iron Maw]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised though. A lot of things in smash 4 don't really combo all that well due to either knockback reasons or lag reasons. Definitely not as fluid as melee or project M in terms of options of what to do for combos. It is very limited to this move follows up on this move and so on. A very linear way of doing combos.

But he might still be good if only because he is one of the few characters that can kill at a reasonable percent. Blast zones are too far out in this game and people's recovery is too dang good. This game feels less of a combo based game and more of "who hits harder so you can put the opponent in a disadvantageous off stage position". There are combos, but they are woefully unimpressive in terms of effect due to how little everything launches.

I dunno, I feel like this is something more character dependent rather than having to do with the overall engine. I mean we do have Sheik, Geninja and other super agile characters who are capable of stringing together fairly long and complex combos. So I suspect this being more of a design thing because as Raziek noted, Robin is more about setups, zoning, spacing, traps, short powerful strings and mix ups, not so much pure combing. All of his attacks (save for bronze sword of course) are actually powerful on their own and tend have some sort of an effect that provides him advantage to control the match. However not all of them link as well directly without some thought and preparation which empathizes his tactical nature more so than the weapon break mechanic does. So even if this was melee I doubt he would change much.

Besides you don't need a combo heavy character to be good or top tier, they just need tools that work well for them in nearly every situation.

EDIT: Well damn, Delzethin said more or less what I did. heh

 

[.Shìkì]

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised though. A lot of things in smash 4 don't really combo all that well due to either knockback reasons or lag reasons. Definitely not as fluid as melee or project M in terms of options of what to do for combos. It is very limited to this move follows up on this move and so on. A very linear way of doing combos.

But he might still be good if only because he is one of the few characters that can kill at a reasonable percent. Blast zones are too far out in this game and people's recovery is too dang good. This game feels less of a combo based game and more of "who hits harder so you can put the opponent in a disadvantageous off stage position". There are combos, but they are woefully unimpressive in terms of effect due to how little everything launches.

I have seen combos ranging from 50-90% on characters like Mario. ZSS and Sheik are also extremely versatile. Its not really that there is bad comoing, it is that not EVERY character can combo like it is nobodies business. Which is perfectly fine imho. I saw many speedy to medium characters having a lot of combo potential (Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Sonic), and almost all characters have access to combos, albeit limited in some cases. One example would be that some throws now have a set knockback meaning they can be comboed out of at ANY %, be it 0 or 300. Jiggs even got her Dair to Rest combo back, Zelda has D-Throw to Bair etc.

Speaking of Zeldas Bair... The sweetspot KILLS. Like, extremely early for this game, below 100% for most characters i believe. Same goes for the reappearance on her Up-B. It looks like characters with a lot of combo-potential do not kill as early, while characters with limited (but EXISTANT) combo potential hit like trucks, and frankly , THAT IS CALLED BALANCE. Someone that can combo you to 90% in one go doesn't deserve moves that kill at those 90% (aside from spikes or risky followups over the edge), while characters that can only combo for 40% or something deserve to hit harder. And then there is the slow, hard hitting characters that, while slow, hit with jabs for 16% and just murder you if you should ever get hit by one of their smashes or charged attacks. Just for reference, Ganondorf and Ike oneshot you at 40% with a fully charged side-smash, and at like 70 - 75% with a noncharged one.

And lastly, don't forget that its not decided whether or not custom specials will be legal. All i saw so far where really balanced out, and almost every character has a slower, but stronger or faster but weaker variant of at least one move, depending on what they are lacking.

EDIT : Just a sidenote, I've heard people that have been playing For Glory (which is set to 5 minutes, 2 stocks by default) that judging from the time they need per match, 3 stocks with a timelimit of 7-8 minutes might be "the" thing.

 

[Iron Maw]

BTW I just saw d-throw>upsmash>aerial smash, the other night. Unfortunately I don't remember percentage, but was probably most likely low. So Levin Sword>Levin Sword comboability is certainly possible.

EDIT : Just a sidenote, I've heard people that have been playing For Glory (which is set to 5 minutes, 2 stocks by default) that judging from the time they need per match, 3 stocks with a timelimit of 7-8 minutes might be "the" thing.

More like 2 stocks and 5 mins. It's a lot harder to kill characters even after inflicting a ton of damage this time.

 

[Delzethin]

More like 2 stocks and 5 mins. It's a lot harder to kill characters even after inflicting a ton of damage this time.

At the same time, though, the damage builds faster. As far as I'm concerned, 3 stocks/8 minutes is close to the same ratio while also keeping gimps from becoming too important.

 

[Iron Maw]

Actually I think I might now agree with you and Shiki after watching another mini-tourney. At very least I think we start seeing a mix of stock matches.

 

[.Shìkì]

I really love the trick that guy used in the tourney... waiting til someone grabs the ledge, pop them of by dropping down to cling to it and then Levin Sword-Bair them out of existance X)

 

[dna.noodle]

I am going to go try that right now, Shiki. That sounds like such a beautiful edge-guarding tech. Thanks man.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Robin will either be terrible or great, it remains to be seen. And I'm not looking forward to it. It seems like whenever a character relies heavily on a gimmick like that it ends up being either trash, OP or annoying.

 

[Zethoro]

It's far too early to tell (though I don't know what people are saying about this "high difficulty curve", Robin doesn't seem very difficult to be honest), but I'd say Robin will be decent. But really, this topic is far too soon; most of the people posting here (myself included) don't even own the game.

 

[Conda]

Hmm doesn't seem to have a lot of combo options due to levin sword's properties of launching. Launching is good but I think he will be more a character that you keep away most of the time with and then just try to land a hit with levin sword.

Still too early to put him in a solid spot but first impressions put him at average for me. Sheik on the other hand...Sheik is really freaking good.

Also, Levin sword loses uses on miss =/ So you can't throw out a bair for spacing like you could in melee with throwing out some moves even if they wouldn't hit just so you can cover options.

Throw out a bronze sword bair instead. You don't have to always use the levin, but this will definitely force players to use both the A button and C-stick for aerials. It'll be an adjustment, but not the same level of adjustment that Megaman or Jigglypuff require.

 

[Senario]

Throw out a bronze sword bair instead. You don't have to always use the levin, but this will definitely force players to use both the A button and C-stick for aerials. It'll be an adjustment, but not the same level of adjustment that Megaman or Jigglypuff require.

You can choose which one you want to use? I thought levin sword automatically came out if you used an air move? Well if you can choose I hope you can tap the C stick for bronze and hold it for levin. Otherwise if you can't choose then that might suck. C stick has a lot of applications for using air moves.

 

[Raziek]

You can choose. I'm not sure how it will work with the C-stick, but you can definitely choose with the control stick.

 

[Senario]

You can choose. I'm not sure how it will work with the C-stick, but you can definitely choose with the control stick.

Yeah, how do I do bronze sword up airs for combos if C stick is always levin lol hopefully it works out.

 

[LinkNIvy]

Robin's ranged attacks last too long on the field from I've seen. If a player gets nicked from the lightning ball or any part of the side B flame, they're going to get combed. Even using one of them on a shield usually will have a part of the hitbox popping them out of shield and into the air.

But yeah, definitely in the high tier.

 

[Ganreizu]

I don't think robin can make it into high tier given the ZSS infinite.

If it gets patched (and i literally never ****ing say that word so you know there's actually a somewhat real possibility of that hapening), i guess i could see robin getting into high. Otherwise that's a real limiting factor given how high up ZSS is looking like she'll be and how widely used she's definitely going to be in tournament.

 

[.Shìkì]

Robin's ranged attacks last too long on the field from I've seen. If a player gets nicked from the lightning ball or any part of the side B flame, they're going to get combed. Even using one of them on a shield usually will have a part of the hitbox popping them out of shield and into the air.

But yeah, definitely in the high tier.

I haven't seen anyone pop out of the shield into the air, but true, when they hit a shield they still activate their multi-hits and the Robin player can punsih via grab or Nosferatu on the shield or punish with something else on a potential roll.

 

[Raziek]

People are seriously overrating the impact that infinite is actually going to have on Robin.

It's one match-up out of 47.

ZSS is a difficult character to play, and has traditionally seen only niche use in Brawl, due to her inherent character flaws (tether grab,difficulty dealing with shield, etc).

You have to run down a long checklist of stuff before it becomes a problem.

• Does my opponent play ZSS?
• Does my opponent know about the infinite?
• Has my opponent PRACTICED the infinite enough to do it consistently?
• Is my opponent enough of a **** to do it in tournament with no remorse?
• Can they outplay me WITHIN the match to land it?
• If all hope is lost, am I left without a secondary to switch to?

You have to answer Yes to ALL of those questions before the infinite really impacts your day even a little bit.

ROB survived Brawl's infinite, we'll survive this one just fine.

 

[JaidynReiman]

People are seriously overrating the impact that infinite is actually going to have on Robin.

It's one match-up out of 47.

ZSS is a difficult character to play, and has traditionally seen only niche use in Brawl, due to her inherent character flaws (tether grab,difficulty dealing with shield, etc).

You have to run down a long checklist of stuff before it becomes a problem.

• Does my opponent play ZSS?
• Does my opponent know about the infinite?
• Has my opponent PRACTICED the infinite enough to do it consistently?
• Is my opponent enough of a **** to do it in tournament with no remorse?
• Can they outplay me WITHIN the match to land it?
• If all hope is lost, am I left without a secondary to switch to?

You have to answer Yes to ALL of those questions before the infinite really impacts your day even a little bit.

ROB survived Brawl's infinite, we'll survive this one just fine.

Plus, ZSS' infinite against Robin can likely be patched out.

 

[Raijinken]

Plus, ZSS' infinite against Robin can likely be patched out.

Apparently, according to HitBoxArena and Aerolink, it has been fixed. Anyone able to confirm?

 

[Hong]

Indeed.

Let's not forget the volatility that has existed in Smash Bros prior. In 64, Melee and PM, it only takes one mistake to lose a stock. We do not yet know how harshly a Robin player can punish ZSS, and the ease in which ZSS will be able to stay in adequate range. Her whip is an excellent spacing tool, but Arcfire is even better.

 

[Raziek]

Apparently, according to HitBoxArena and Aerolink, it has been fixed. Anyone able to confirm?

Can you source that?

@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster confirmerino?