Robin/Daraen top tier?

[Got4n]

I think he should be definitely in high tier, I don't see why he isn't now with recent patch, he got less lag, a true combo until 40% which does around 20% if you do it okay, powerful smash & aerials, a sort of PK Fire and a good recovery. Only his speed would be bad, but Villager is kinda slow and is still high tier

 

[Suiko]

Realistically I don't think he's TOP tier but definitely high. The checkmate combos definitely helps with reliable killing now and dthrow into utilt also is good for racking up damage, and the other miscellaneous changes help but I can't see him as top tier yet.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Robin's glaring faults clash with the subjective tier lists because of the popularity of speedy, combo-centric characters whom are usually great Robin counters because of pressuring. Even if you can read your opponent, Robin is too much of a combo punching bag to effectively turn the battle unless they actually give you the distance you need and the opportunity to perform DThrow/Arcthunder combos.

I'll be fully satisfied when they remove or at least give me a good reason why a landed Nosferatu forces a freefall.

 

[Zareidriel]

I mean the Nosferatu special fall is inconvenient (and honestly pretty stupid) but I don't think I would be "satisfied" with that alone. I'm fine with being the slowest runner, the slowest pummeller, and all that, it gives us originality as the slow-ass battle tank zoner. But a few tweaks to our frame data (First Actionable Frame decreases on smashes and aerials maybe, or larger autocancel windows) would be just the thing the doctor ordered, I think. Some improvements to that and we really could be Top Tier instead of the B-Class I believe we're currently at.

 

[Zio~]

To be honest I think he can totally be atleast in A-, and I dont really have that much trouble with rushdown characters, most of his tilts come out fast enough to stop them and push them to a decent distance.

 

[shotgunraptorjesus]

As much as I hate to admit it, I really can't see that happening purely based on how slow s/he is, however she has enough strengths now to solidify her position in the solid mid tiers, which is where I honestly think she belonged in pre-1.1.0

 

[FieryRebirth]

I do see more Robin changes coming, since, let's face it, we have been one of the character mains only OP through observance and lack of experience from our opponents and ourselves; Robin is that unique. How many times have we died due to a backwards Elwind ledge grab attempt in a intensive 1v1 that you believed you had? I'd list more faults-to-fixed but I'd just be full-out ranting.

 

[RandomGuySheep]

He's definitely not Top Tier. He's still Mid-Tier and at the most Top Mid-Tier. That grab x........x

 

[FieryRebirth]

He's definitely not Top Tier. He's still Mid-Tier and at the most Top Mid-Tier. That grab x........x

I'll agree. I think speed and grab range are the fundamentals for meta play - which Robin lacks in.

 

[PK Gaming]

You guys overrate Robin way, way, way, WAY too much lmao

He's top tier in my heart, and that's all that matters ♪

 

[Avokha]

You guys overrate Robin way, way, way, WAY too much lmao

He's top tier in my heart, and that's all that matters ♪

This right here warms my heart

 

[shotgunraptorjesus]

I remember back in the early 3DS days Robin was considered top tier

 

[Zio~]

I remember back in the early 3DS days Robin was considered top tier

Even bowser was top tier in the early days.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Even bowser was top tier in the early days.

This is why early top tier lists are not to be believed in. Especially with a first official Smash Bros game that gets balance patches. People thought Robin was OP just from his/her projectile/zoning game, then as the game got older the competitive scene started stepping out of their sanctuary and learned how great Robin's faults were and how easy they were to exploit.

Granted, Robin is not a popular character fighter so usually it's good punishment against anyone who never seen a Robin kick ass before.

 

[shotgunraptorjesus]

This is why early top tier lists are not to be believed in. Especially with a first official Smash Bros game that gets balance patches. People thought Robin was OP just from his/her projectile/zoning game, then as the game got older the competitive scene started stepping out of their sanctuary and learned how great Robin's faults were and how easy they were to exploit.

Granted, Robin is not a popular character fighter so usually it's good punishment against anyone who never seen a Robin kick *** before.

Looking back on it, I'm really glad Duck Hunt wasn't top tier like m2k predicted

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Top tier of competitive play? Not really... B or B- is pretty fitting (even C+)
Top tier of fun to play? God tier.

As much as I love the tactician (srsly, it's superbe), he has some great cons, and his pros are kind of easy to counter.

 

[Suiko]

If they improve his spacing tools and grab range I don't think he'll have the need for speed... but I don't know how quickly that's gonna happen.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

A character who is a serious contender for worst grab in the game can't really be a top tier in Smash 4's current metagame, which is centralized around grabs. Not to mention he's the slowest character in the game. Slow characters have never been high tier in any Smash Bros game (not counting Jigglypuff and Peach in Melee, because they're both meant to be in the air most of the time anyway), and are typically low, if not bottom tier; Smash 4 is no different.

 

[AC NuBurs]

A character who is a serious contender for worst grab in the game can't really be a top tier in Smash 4's current metagame, which is centralized around grabs. Not to mention he's the slowest character in the game. Slow characters have never been high tier in any Smash Bros game (not counting Jigglypuff and Peach in Melee, because they're both meant to be in the air most of the time anyway), and are typically low, if not bottom tier; Smash 4 is no different.

I wouldnt say the entire game is centralized around grabs, it just so happens that a large number of the top tiers have good grabs, like ZSS and Luigi. A character like Shiek isn't really centralized around grabs, granted she does have grab combos and such, but its not what makes her such a scary and powerful character.

The problem is, a lot of the time people assume that good grab=good character. Which just isnt true. Mewtwo has a powerful grab, Ness has a powerful grab, yet you dont see these characters grouped in top tier with shiek and rosalina. Whilst im not saying Robin is top tier, he certainly is more of a threat thanks to the latest patch. His play style isn't centered around his grab though, its about setting up walls with projectiles and such. And bessides, Robin has a grab that can heal him, and that can be used in the air. I wouldnt say he has it as bad as your making it.

 

[Raziek]

You guys are going on and on about how bad Robin's grab is when we have an air-OK command grab.

We have plenty of tools to punish shielding (Nos, Arcfire, Thunder variants), so it's not as if we're in a group with the tether characters.

 

[Nah]

It's not so much the grab itself, but who it's on and what you get out of the grab. Mewtwo and Ness have rather average grabs, but Ness gets a good setup off of Dthrow and Bthrow is a stupidly good kill throw (please nerf that ****), while Mewtwo gets 2 good kill throws as well. ZSS, widely considered a top 5 character, has a tether grab (read: one of the worst grabs in the game), but she's also very good outside of her crappy tether grab and iirc gets good reward from grabs.

Robin has a lot of strengths:
-disjoints
-(powerful) zoning tools/projectiles
-excellent kill power
-a command grab that heals
-some combo/kill setups in Arcfire/Arcthunder/Dthrow
-good damage per hit

.....but she'll never be top tier for two reasons: mobility and frame data. Smash is, as I understand it, a game ruled by mobility and safety. If you look at all the characters generally considered to be "good"/common tournament picks (, etc), you'll notice that almost all of them have above average mobility or better. With the exceptions being Rosalina and Luigi, because Luigi's Fireballs and insane grab reward and Rosalina's great Utilt/Uair/Dair+Luma being nuts happen to, for whatever reason, override their so-so mobility (and possibly a couple of their other issues). And you'll also notice that their isn't a single character with good mobility that's generally considered to be low tier.

Frame data is somewhat less important but is still really nice to have. Or least you want to have very good frame data on a handful of your moves anyway. But when you lack a quick get the **** off me option and several characters have faster jabs and tilts than you it kinda hurts in competitive play.

Shiek in particular stands out to me as an example of "mobility and frame data>everything else". She has very few, if any, disjoints, her damage per hit is garbage, she hits about as hard as crippled old man, is lightweight, and lacks a command grab. And at this point buttloads of people have grab combo so whatever. Yet almost everyone considers her the #1 character right now, and what does she have? Great mobility and arguably the best frame data in the game. Oh and needles, but she'd still probably be good even if needles were super nerfed.

Of course, it's not so simple as that, and many other factors effect a character's viability/tier placement ( has excellent frame data, ground moves, and speed, but is held back by his ****ing terrible recovery, lack of a good air game, and lightweight, while has hitbox issues and Super Missiles should hit a little harder, is , and the things noted above about and ), but I don't think it's crazy to say that mobility (and frame data) is hella important in this metagame and that Robin's strengths don't quite substitute for her poor mobility and mostly average frame data. Though its not like you'd wanna give her significant mobility and overall frame data buffs, because then we'd have Grima a monster on our hands and that's no fun.

So then the question is, if not top tier, how high exactly can go? Possibly very high, but I sure as **** wouldn't really know. I suppose we will know in time.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

So then the question is, if not top tier, how high exactly can go? Possibly very high, but I sure as **** wouldn't really know. I suppose we will know in time.

Exactly. The game is just 10 months old. The meta has to evolve a lot, and if we include the DLC and the patchs, the meta will take long to be solid like Brawl's or Melee.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The problem is, a lot of the time people assume that good grab=good character. Which just isnt true. Mewtwo has a powerful grab, Ness has a powerful grab, yet you dont see these characters grouped in top tier with shiek and rosalina.

Ness is a top 10/potentially top 5 character.

You guys are going on and on about how bad Robin's grab is when we have an air-OK command grab.

We have plenty of tools to punish shielding (Nos, Arcfire, Thunder variants), so it's not as if we're in a group with the tether characters.

One purpose of grabbing is to punish shields, yes, but far more often the point of grabbing is to start a combo. This is true in every Smash game, and I would say it's true even more so in Smash 4. Having a command grab doesn't help in this regard.

And at least tether characters have both longer range and a longer lasting hitbox (grabbox?) on their grabs, i.e., you can't spotdodge them. Robin has major endlag AND one of the worst grab ranges in the game AND it can be spotdodged.

Just face it, Robin's grab sucks.

 

[PK Gaming]

No, Robin's grab definitely isn't as bad as you think it is.

His standing grab is garbage, but he has a frame 8 dash grab with decent range, which is better than most characters. We're much better off than say Bowser Jr. who has grab frame data that's outright in the double digits and poor range to compensate for it.