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ROB Official Match-up Discussion: Pokémon Trainer

TheMike

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Apr 24, 2009
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Pokémon Trainer





Two weeks past from the last two Match-ups discussions and finally we'll finish the discussions because it's missing only Pokémon Trainer and Jiggly. This particular thread is for Pokémon Trainer.

3 in 1.. I mean, here u can discuss Ivy, Charizard and Squirtle separately or all of them ^.-


So... Discuss!


If someone wants to follow a match-up discussion structure, he it is:



ROB's Advantages:

ROB's Disadvantages:

Opponent's Advantages:

Opponent's Disadvantages:

What ROB should try to do:

How opponent can stop it:

What Opponent should be trying to do:

How ROB can stop it:

Counterpicks (what ROB should pick/ What opponent will pick {If you're someone contributing from another board})
Bans (what ROB should ban 1 via stage strike, 1 via personal ban)
Preferred Neutral (what ROB wants/ What opponent wants {If you're someone contributing from another board})

Ratio:

Plus, any anecdotes/explanations you wanna give.
 

TheMike

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Well, i can't say much about these thre pokemons. My only advice against Ivy is to play agressively so as to get Early Kills with gimps. Therefore, i can give 70:30 for ROB because besides Gimps, ROB win in other aspects, such as Ground Game, EG...


ROB can also gimp Squirtle, but i think it's better to camp him because getting close isn't a good idea IMO because Squirtle has a really fast and good Air Game. U guys know, ROB is big blablabla


As i like an agressive game, i'll try to take Charizard off-stage, EG correctly, try Gimps.. but i don't see camping as a bad option. Oh, Charizard has more jumps than most of the other characters, but it's difficult to Charizard to recovery when someone is Edge guarding correctly, especially when he's facing a character with good recovery, which is ROB's case.
 

Azuzu

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I don't really like to follow the format, but I can throw some stuff out there since no one seems to be posting. So, incoming wall of text...

Before I go into pokemon specific matchups though, I think the overall strategy is more important than any individual one. Firstly, camping is nothing but rewarded in this match. I know playing agresively might sound appealing because of the potential to gimp, but first consider fatigue. The pokemon has a certain amount of time(2:30?) before their attack is cut by 30%. In addition, each attack they use takes an extra second of this time. With no reflects or (good) projectiles of their own, camping puts you in a massively advantageous position. If he is forced to swap, your best option is a fully charged gyro to the face. I don't need to tell you guys how much these hurt :lick:

One thing to note is that they can do instant swaps on some stages. All they need a moving platform, with smashville being the best example. The details are a little much to go into here, the main the to know is that they can do it. I'm sure it's on their boards if you're curious.

Charizard- Honestly, out of the 3, this is the one I think is the biggest threat to ROB so I'll start with him. Or at least, I have the most trouble with him. Or the PT I played was just amazing with him. This is primarily because he has a great pressure game with grab releases, jabs, flamethrower and rocksmash. Even if you consistently beat him in the air and on the ground, he can catch up on damage amazingly fast if you make one mistake (for instance, a rock smash can do 50~%). DIing flamethrower can be a little tricky because that glimmering option of DIing towards him and punishing is always there, but it can cost you a ton of extra damage to get there. I prefer just DIing away from it.

He'll be looking to kill you with either a running upsmash, fsmash, or a rocksmash. On that note, his dair worries me a lot more than other spikes, don't just assume you can just meteor cancel and be safe, he can chase down a bit and if he hits you again with it, you're probably dead. He can also WOP well with fair.

As for how to win, he's as big and unmaneuverable as you are, except your attacks chain together far better, and in general out prioritize/speed him. Get him in fair chains, ftilts, grabs. So when out of your camping phase, don't ease up on the pressure. He's pretty heavy so be prepared to wait a while for a kill.

Ratio- 60:40 ROB

Squirtle Squirtle is generally considered to be the best of the 3 but he has some severe problems against rob. Primarily, you outrange and out prioritize everything he can do. He is very fast and small though, and can juggle you like mad if you let him get inside. So the name of the game here is keep away. Stay grounded/shorthop height and wall when he approaches.

His onstage kill moves include dthrow, and upsmash. Once you get 120%, you HAVE to avoid getting grabbed or you're as good as dead from dthrow. DI towards the corners, if you try to DI to the side, it will just kill you there instead of off the ceiling. Upsmash will likely come out of some kind of "shellshifting" shenanigans, where he slides around hoping to land a grab or upsmash. Projectiles will make him stop, as will a well timed ftilt.

Off stage, fair can kill you if it's fresh and he manages to land one. If you're recovering low and he hits you with a dair, the last hit will shoot you down and away from the stage pretty hard, enough to kill you off the side a lot of the time. The important thing to remember is to DI away from the stage if he hits you with it to avoid the last hit.

One final note is that squirtle has resistance to your booster attacks, and I think laser and fsmash as well. He's incredibly light, so you can still kill with them, but tack on some extra percent before they stale. Upthrow is an amazing kill option in this MU.

Ratio: 60:40 ROB

Ivysaur You will most likely only see ivy for a short time each match, he's incredibly bad against rob and your opponent will likely switch as soon as they get a chance, often off of a throw, or smash that don't finish you. Overall, your moveset completely dominates his, and if you can pressure him off the side, hug and he's as good as dead. He still has a couple trouble moves though. Bullet seed can do 40% if you get stuck in it, uair and upsmash can kill pretty early, as can vine whip if try something dumb like short hop -> nair towards him.

To make matter worse, ivy also takes extra knockback from your fire attacks.

Ratio: 70:30 ROB

Overall ratio: Hard to say, 60:40, 65:35 both sound reasonable though.

Stage selection- avoid moving platforms if you don't want instant swaps, other than that, I don't like battlefield because flamethrower becomes a pain and squirtle can use the platforms better than you.
 

GwJ

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It's not 65:35, make it 60:40. Squirtle does some major ownage to us, Ivysaur dies, and Lizardon just tends to hit us more because of our calorie problem.
 

Azuzu

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Yea. I mostly agree, it's just that the match can vary so much, if they get stuck playing ivy for even half a stock it can mean a huge swing. He's not helpless by any means, but he's undeniably one of the easiest characters in the game to gimp against a top gimping character...
 

TheMike

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Actually, even Ivy hits us easier with Nairs and Bairs. That's our biggest problem =0
 

A2ZOMG

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You go even with Squirtle, but you basically outcamp/outgimp the other two.

You can't camp against Squirtle much because he's too mobile to be camped. He juggles you a lot. However your disjoints and gimp game are what keep you afloat against him.
 

Tien2500

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Squirtle- This is a good matchup for Squirtle. Squritle won't take much damage from ROB's projectiles and doesn't have a hard time approaching. One Squirtle gets ROB up ROB has a hard time getting down. I know N/B/Dair are disjointed but it doesn't help too much because of the start up on those moves. Fair is the only move you have quick enough to help when Squirtle is juggling you and even they he'll probably avoid coming from up from below/behind.

On the ground Squirtle has a one frame jab and quick tilts. ROB's ftilt though outranges everything Squirtle has and his moves on the whole have more range and power than Squirtle does so if the fight is on the ground you have to keep Squirtle at mid range and then the advantage is yours. But if Squirlte is at close range its his. Squirtle also has some unique mobility options (shellshifting) which allow him to do extended grabs and sliding smashes.

This matchup is definitely in Squirtle's favor. 60:40.

Ivy- I think Ivy is being underrated here. Bair has amazing range and Nair will be quite damaging to ROB. BS will rack up a ton of damage if you don't DI out of the fisrt hit and Ivy has pretty good KO power. ROB's projectile game is obviously better. Ivy has some recovery options by doing things like Breversed razor leaf to Bair. She's still easy to gimp but its not like a free KO. Honestly Ivy shouldn't really be out at low percentages and the fire attacks are more of a concern than an early gimp.

Its definitely in ROB's favor but not 70:30. Probably 65:35. But there is really no reason to use Ivy here. You can get a quick Bthrow or something in and switch out or if you want just switch and take the hit. 20% damage is probably worth it to keep Ivy out.

Charizard- I think Charizard does fairly well here. Charizard is very fast which helps against campiness to some extent. Charizard can do damage in fairly large chunks. Flamethrower should do about 20% if you're caught in it. Don't DI into it. The fair you get won't be worth the damage you take. Rock smash can do up to 45% damage with one hit and 61% when comboed into Usmash (I believe this is a try combo). He also has the second longest non-tether grab in the game and great grab release options.

ROB can camp in this match (I'm pretty sure flamethrower stops the top though) but thats only if he gets a stock lead (which Squirtle should help prevent) and Charizard can undo the damage quickly. Also remember that part of Charizard's job is to buy time for Squirtle to recharge. Both characters have a blindspot below them and get juggled easily. Rob's and Fair are better for juggling though but Zard has bair to protect him from behind.

Charizard has an advantage in KOing. Both characters are heavy but Charizard has the better KO options between Dtilt, Usmash, Rock Smash. His grab release can lead into dtilt or Fsmash (if you spot dodge and Zard Fsmashes you get hit). ROB's KOing isn't that great and he might have a problem with Zard's weight.

I don't think Charizard has much trouble with getting gimped really. He has an extra jump and his Up B has super armor. Unless he's knocked off at a low angle he's good and again I'm not sure what moves ROB has to do that. You can get a gimp off if he messes up recovering but I don't think it will be a major factor.

I'd say this matchup is close to even. Could be 45:55 ROB.

Overall like any PT matchup this one is hard to call. PT mains will try their best to keep Squirtle in for as much of the match as possible, Ivy in as little as possible, and have Zard out mainly at high percentages to stock tank. If they can do this then they'll have a strong chance of winning. If you can KO Squirtle first than you disrupt then you can take control of the matchup.

Overall I'd put it at even or a 55:45 PT.
 

koing

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Mar 19, 2009
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im actually attempting to secondary pt so more from me on this matchup when im better
hardest match up squirtle
easiest ivysaur
i say 55:45 pt
cuz squirtle can approach us and godzilla can kill
 
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