RMT? No, RTP!

[Metadour-2]

Well, i was thinking of something interesting today.
I've been thinkin bout it for a while, but never really got to postin it (it's most likely aready up somewhere, but i thought the concept was interesting anyway)

instead of rating teams, I thought of something a little more basic.
I wanted to make a standard system that most (hopefully) will be able to agree on using.
A system for rating POKEMON, individually that is.
Rate That Pokemon!, if you will
I would base it on a few categories, and give each category an assigned point value on the overall Rating.
But i need some help. Can't do it myself.
Especially since this is a rather controversial and opinionated topic.
I need the views of many different people.
Help me out?


so far i've come up with this.
Five basic categories, each split up into to groups (so ten in all). Also, a list of complete movesets is to be posted with each pokemon. The categories are as follows(And each category is split up into OFFENSIVELY and DEFENSIVELY):


-Typing
OFFENSIVELY-What coverage to the pokemon's STAB moves grant it? What pokemon are they especially useful for?
DEFENSIVELY-What Weaknesses does the pokemon have (and how common is that move type)? What resistances and immunities, if any(and how useful are they)?

-Base Stats
OFFENSIVELY-(Mostly the pokemon's Base ATTACK, SPECIAL ATTACK, AND SPEED. Discounting stat altering moves and the like entirely, on based on the pokemon's BASE stats)
DEFENSIVELY-(Mostly the pokemon's Base DEFENSE, SPECIAL DEFENSE, AND HIT POINTS. Same rules that apply for OFFENSIVE base stats)

-Move Pool
OFFENSIVELY-Which (useful) offensive moves does it carry (and how broad is the type diversity)? What types can this pokemon effectively cover? Are they any pokemon that resist the majority of this pokemon's moves?
DEFENSIVELY-What moves can this pokemon viably use defensively?
-Ability
OFFENSIVELY-What does the pokemon's ability do for it offensively?
DEFENSIVELY-What does the pokemon's ability do for it defensively?

-Uses
OFFENSIVELY-How many different battle roles can this pokemon fill offensively? How important are these roles to the typical six pokemon team?
DEFENSIVELY-How many different battle roles can this pokemon fill defensively? How important are these roles to the typical six pokemon team?

MOVESETS-Popular and tricky movesets posted by all kinds of players, with ability, held item, EV Spread, and all four moves laid out in a clear format(white, bold, underlined, standard RMT format.

And that's about it. I know i need some more specific details on this, but i just wanted to get that down. Feel free to comment on what you think should be added/taken away.

HERE IS A VERY IMPORTANT LINK TO A THREAD THAT EXPLAINS IN DETAIL WHAT AND WHAT NOT TO DO REGARDING RTPs AND WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=113349

I'm going to post a rating I have done and I suggest everybody fill out as well (so we can get an average).

The rating sheet will go as follows:

[Pokemon]
[Type(s)]
[Ability(s)]
[Base Stats]

-HP
-AT
-DE
-SA
-SD
-SP

And then the rating will follow, with each of the ten categories filled in.
The pokemon I suggest we all rate is...

The everpopluar (I feel TOO popluar) GARCHOMP!

[Pokemon] Garchomp
[Type(s)] Dragon/Ground
[Ability(s)] Sand Veil
[Base Stats]

-HP 108
-AT 130
-DE 95
-SA 80
-SD 85
-SP 102


Here's the link to the thread with Garchomp's info. Enjoy!
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2744684#post2744684

Here's the link to the thread with Gyarados's info. Enjoy! (This is a good example RTP)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2744758#post2744758

Here's the link to the thread with Weavile's info. Enjoy! (Credited to Wii4Mii)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=113351

Here's the link to the thread with Lopunny's info. Enjoy! (Credited to ILoveCelebi)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=113387

Afterwards we will be doing Dusknoir, Toxicroak, and Lucario. Any other suggestions?
I have somebody signed up to be doing Metagross and Celebi as well.

so, I have no other way to wrap up this incredibly long post except by saying, what do you say?

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Seems like an interesting thing to do.

BASE STATS (OFFENSIVELY)
Attack - 130
Special Attack - 80
Speed - 102

Garchomp's high Attack stat makes it's STAB attacks, Dragon Claw and Earthquake, quite painful to most Pokemon that arn't Defensively trained or resistant. It's Special Attack may be average, but it's enough to hurt Skarmory with Flamethrower/Fire Blast. It's 102 Speed stat can set it just above the many 100ers. 252 EVs in Speed and a neutral Speed nature sets it at 303, enough to outspeed the 100ers with the same EVs/nature, as well as 252/+nature 85ers, like Heracross. With 252/+nature, Garchomp outspeeds 252 Eved 115s.

BASE STATS (DEFENSIVELY)
HP - 108
Defense - 95
Special Defense - 85

Garchomp's defenses and HP are decent enough for it to survive neutral hits. An Ice Beam user, without STAB, needs at least 266 Special Attack to have a guaranteed kill on a min HP / min SpDef Garchomp.

Is that good?

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

Edit: I guess I'll do movepool, too. I'm doing it right now.

MOVEPOOL (OFFENSIVELY)
Physical Attacks (Attack-130)

Garchomp has many effective Physical attacks and they all hurt because of Garchomp's 130 Attack stat. It's Physical Attacks include Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Fire Fang, Crunch and Outrage. Choice Band Outrage tears things apart that arn't resisted by it. Dragon Claw is a safer, albeit weaker Dragon attack. They both also get STAB. Earthquake is... Earthquake. The ground does a little bit of shaking, and the opponent's HP does a lot of falling. Stone Edge is capable of hitting Flyers that switch in on Earthquake or for hitting Skarmory, who also resists Outrage/Dragon Claw. Fire Fang can, once again, hurt Skarmory, but is also used for Bronzong, who resists Outrage/Dragon Claw, Stone Edge, and is immune to Earthquake. Crunch is for Cresselia.

If you'd like a good Physical moveset, try:

Outrage
Earthquake
Fire Fang
Swords Dance

Switch into something that fears Garchomp, and Swords Dance the switch. Cresselia comes in? SDed Outrage murders it. Once your opponent's Physical wall thingy is down, you can sweep with this set. Earthquake is STAB and hits them Steels. As stated brfore, Fire Fang hits Skarmory and Bronzong.

Special Attacks (Special Attack-80)

Have you ever heard of a Chain Chomp? It's a Garchomp with Draco Meteor.

You: Well, Draco Meteor is good and it has STAB and all, but... 80 base Special Attack? No. It's like using Surf on Gyarados. STAB, good attack, but... no.

Mii: What are common switch ins on Garchomp?

You: Slowbro, Hippowdon, Donphan... Oh, I get it. Pokemon that can take Physical hits. Oh... Why can they take physical hits? Well, their Defense and HP are high, and they (except Donphan) have healing moves, and resist one of Garchomp's attacks. Huh? ... Why can't they take Special hits? Well, their (except Slowbro) Special Defense isn't that good, and Hippowdon and Donphan are weak to Surf and Ice Beam, while Slowbro is weak to Thunderbolt...

Mii: Do you get it yet?

You: ...No...

*a couple minutes later*

You: ... Oh... Yeah... Yeah!

Mii: Hmm?

You: Since Garchomp would predict a switch in of a Physical Wall, you use Draco Meteor. They arn't prepered for a powerful Special blow and...

Mii: Meh, good enough.

You know how you can trick them even more?

You: How?

Mii: By using Swords Dance.

Go here for the full Chain Chomp stuff.

Try:

Swords Dance
Draco Meteor
Earthquake
Fire Blast

Fire Blast can also do more damage because of the EVs in SpAtk.

Movepool (Defensively)
Garchomp's role isn't to be defensive, and thus, it doesn't know that many good defensive moves. All it has is Toxic, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Rest, Stealth Rock, and Sand Tomb (LOL)

Ugg... Too much typing...

Util wi met agin...
wIi4miI 99...

 

[Metadour-2]

that's wonderful, my good man.

Leave it to Wii4Mii to save the day lol.

I'm gonna go stick that in the thread if you don't mind.
I'm gonna add some data on Ice fang too if you don't mind.

 

[Azelf]

How about RTM? (Rate That Moveset?)

By the way, when you say it's Flamethrower/Fire Blast "hurts" Skarmory, how much does it hurt it? You need to be clear with your damage calculations. For example, say something like "Fire Blast hits neutral nature no EV Skarmory for such and such percent." You can use MetalKid's calculator for that, or the Shoddy Battle program.

EDIT: Am I the only one here whose signature disappears randomly?

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

I added a movepool part, too, and a fun little... thing... about a n00b learning about Chain Chomp.

How about you make everything colored so people can fine what they're looking for?

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[H@wK]

Awww fawk... I can't help much here, I'm too bad with calculations/explaining. At least I get things faster, not like the n00b in Wii4Mii's convo hahahaha!

 

[Metadour-2]

thanx agai W4M, you're a life saver...

i'll add that 2morrow when i'm on my PC (using Wii now)

i wouldcolor code it, but i don't know how lol.

i need more suggestions btw.

we should expand this and try to get it stickied...

ok, most likely that wont happen, but...

a guycan dream right?

 

[Zook]

Interesting thread.

I say next we examine Toxicroak.

 

[Metadour-2]

alright, I updated the thread. If someone could enlighten me on COLOR CODING that would be shweet.

I'm also looking for suggestions on the things i asked for in the thread and some more people to "volunteer" sections for Garchomp.

After Chompy is done i'd also like a vote as to who we'll review next.
but that's AFTER he's done.

SO GET HIM DONE! lol.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

To color the messages, find where it says font right above the message you're typing. Next there should be Sizes. Then, there should be an A with a black line under it. Click on it, and you can choose what color to make your messages.

Well, I got most of Garchomp done... So now it's someone else's turn!

Hmmm... I guess this post is reserved for something lol

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

Edit: For the Chain Chomp one, where I said

Go here for the full Chain Chomp stuff.

Use this link for here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25978&&highlight=Chain+Chomp

ABILITY (OFFENSIVELY) Sand Veil
Garchomp's ability, Sand Veil, only activates during a Sandstorm. It makes a 100% accuracy move hit only 80% of the time. This can be quite useful if Garchomp is using Swords Dance for a huge sweep. Don't abuse it, though. You can still get hit by an Ice Beam, so don't think Sand Veil = OMG INVINCIBLE!!!!!11!11!one

ABILITY (DEFENSIVELY) Sand Veil
Garchomp's ability, as stated before, helps him avoid some attacks. Garchomp can take hits, though. So you don't have to be like OH NOEZ I GOT HIT BY FLAMETHROWER!!!!!!111!one

 

[Zook]

Chompy looks like he's been covered. What else do you want us to do? Be more specific!

I vote Toxicroak!

 

[Metadour-2]

I totally need some help on these things (thank you guys for being so willing to help, it means a bunch).

If there should be more categories or if some of them should be scrapped for others?
What should the point system be for each category? should it be different depending on the category (like move pool has a higher value than ability)?

and how are we going to organize all this?!?

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

Chompy looks like he's been covered. What else do you want us to do? Be more specific!

I vote Toxicroak!

Garchomp still needs ability and uses, both offensively and defensively. In fact, I think I'll do Ability in my above post.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[Metadour-2]

alright, you wrap up ability and i was going to do uses but that would leave the only contributors as me and you, Wii4Mii lol.

WE NEED ANOTHER VOICE THANK YOU!

We have one vote for toxicroak btw.
And thanks W4M for the color coding thing. Worked out brilliantly.

and I still need help on...

If there should be more categories or if some of them should be scrapped for others?
What should the point system be for each category? should it be different depending on the category (like move pool has a higher value than ability)?

and how are we going to organize all this?!?

 

[MysticKenji]

As far as uses go, Garchomp is a very good physical sweeper.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

alright, you wrap up ability and i was going to do uses but that would leave the only contributors as me and you, Wii4Mii lol.

WE NEED ANOTHER VOICE THANK YOU!

We have one vote for toxicroak btw.
And thanks W4M for the color coding thing. Worked out brilliantly.

and I still need help on...

If there should be more categories or if some of them should be scrapped for others?
What should the point system be for each category? should it be different depending on the category (like move pool has a higher value than ability)?

and how are we going to organize all this?!?

Yeah, I'm a nice guy.

Maybe would could add an Overall Offensive and Defensive category.

Maybe for ability, it should be out of 5.

I don't know how we'll organize this?!? I did most of the work!1!

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

 

[Metadour-2]

true, you did do most of it.
Well anyway, i'm trying vigorously to update it, but it simply won't do it.
I think the post is simply too massive lol.

This is why i was asking for organization suggestions.

I think i'm gonna split it up. Post another thread with the garchomp info and paste a link for it on the thread.

well, that's what i just did.
The garchomp section is in another thread now, and there is a link leading to that thread.
Post if you like.

It worked out wonderfully too.
I think we'll do that for all the pokes.

SO if someone would please finish chompy we can vote for the next pokemon and get started on that!

so far
1 vote for toxicroak lol.
I vote for Weavile. Or Dusknoir.

 

[Zook]

All right, I'll do uses.

-Uses
OFFENSIVELY-
With a base Atk of 130 and Spd of 102, Garchomp fills the roles of physical sweeper excellently. It is fast enough to outrunpretty much any other pokemon while holding Choice Scarf, and a Choice Banded Outrage 0HKOs pretty much anything that doesn't resist it.

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Sand Veil
EVs: 6 Hp/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly or Adamant Nature (+Spd or Atk, -SpAtk)
-Earthquake
-Outrage
-Stone Edge
-Crunch/Fire Fang/Aerial Ace

There you go, CS Chomp. Due to Choice item's switch-outy nature, Outrage's confusion shouldn't be too much of a problem. Fire Fang is for Foretress, or you could use Crunch for extra power. AA OKHO's Hera, which is worth consideration.

Chomp also has access to Swords Dance, and when paired with an EQ and DC STAB, pokemon unable to resist it should be afraid.

One of Garchomp's most valuable assets is it's immunity to Thunder Wave. Very little can paralyze Chomp, and, thus, very little can cripple it.

Of course, Chomp isn't perfect. Though powerful, Garchomp's predictiblility is it's weakness. Unlike some of his other Dragon friends, he can't do much on the Special side outside of Draco Meteor and maybe Fire Blast. Weavile, with higher Base Speed, will 0HKO Garchomp with an Ice Punch every time it get's the chance.

DEFENSIVELY-
Garchomp is pretty skimpy on the Defence. I suppose it could be used to absorb TWs, but... Eh. Garchomp could Sand Tomb Toxitrap, but he has better things to do.

Garchomp @ Leftovers
Sand Veil
EVs: 108 Hp/20 Atk/100 Def/140 Spd/100 SpDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpAtk)
-Sand Tomb
-Toxic
-Protect
-Dragon Calw

Trap'em, Toxic'em, then kill'em.

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

OK, I saw the new thread. I am NOT doing uses.

I vote Gyarados next.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99

Edit: Zook did uses.

 

[Metadour-2]

alright, one for gyara, one for toxicroak, one for weavile, and one for dusknoir lol.

I can agree to Gyara, i want to see that.
Can we all come to a vote?

and by all i mean Wii4Mii, Zook, and I?

seeing as we're the only ones who are posting consistently lol.

 

[Zook]

Fine, I say Gyra, too.

 

[Metadour-2]

alright, gyara's up and in another thread. I've posted the link on the main thread.
I'll go start on it now.

Help?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2744758#post2744758

there's the link.
Good luck guys and gals.

 

[titus]

How about RTM? (Rate That Moveset?)

By the way, when you say it's Flamethrower/Fire Blast "hurts" Skarmory, how much does it hurt it? You need to be clear with your damage calculations. For example, say something like "Fire Blast hits neutral nature no EV Skarmory for such and such percent." You can use MetalKid's calculator for that, or the Shoddy Battle program.

EDIT: Am I the only one here whose signature disappears randomly?

to respond to your un-responded to post:

no you dont.
yes.

 

[Problem2]

I can do Dusknoir

Dusknoir
Type: Ghost
Ability: Pressure
HP: 45
AT: 100
DF: 135
SA: 65
SD: 135
SP: 45

Typing: Ghost

(Offensively) - Ghost grants a much needed STAB for Shadow Sneak allowing it to be a useable priority move. Shadow Punch and Shadow Ball are STABed alternatives though they serve no purpose other than to rack up medium strength damage

(Defensively) - Being Ghost, Dusknoir can come in on Fighting and Normal moves without breaking a sweat and only has to worry about Dark and Ghost, which can sometimes be a problem as quite a few physical sweepers have one of those types. Dusknoir can though block the likes of Heracross, Gyarados, and even Infernape as they rarely carry Shadow Claw.

Base Stats


(Offensively) - Dusknoir's biggest point offensively is his 100 Base Atk which oten racks up decent damage unless you are facing a wall/pseudo-wall. A Choice Banded Dusknoir could serve as a unique surprise considering his Atk stat equals that of Ambipom and Tauros, but he lacks the speed and powerfull 100 STAB move. Dusknoir often gets around his slow Spd by the means of Shadow Sneak or Trick Room.

(Defensively) - This is truly Dusknoir's A-Game. Since Dusknoir has such low HP, you must max it out for Optimum defensive results. Dusknoir usually handles non-powered up physical hits easily at about 10-20% damage, but boosted hits can sometimes hit in the 30s%.

Move Pool

(Offensively)
- Shadow Punch
- Earthquake
- Thunder/Fire/Icepunch
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Ball
- Trick Room

Fire/Thunderpunch and either Shadow Punch or Sneak is what you see on most Dusknoirs. Shadow Ball can be somewhat useful because of STAB for a rare Calm Minder, but I wouldn't recommend using a mix atk because of his lower SAtk stat and the lack of advantages of having a Special Ghost attack over a Physical One. Shadow Sneak can come in handy for Revenge kills and killing Special Sweepers like Alakazam, Gengar, and Azelf, and the elemental punches prevent Gyarados and Heracross from setting up and sweeping.

Trick Room, though best being in a support category can make his painfully low Spd Stat an advantage as with any other slow pokemon on your team. This could be used for a more offensively EV trained Dusknoir, but usually this is just a support move for a Trick Room team.

(Defensively)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Rest / Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind
- Destiny Bond
- Psych Up
- Toxic

Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split are the most common moves you'll see on Dusknoir. Will-O-Wisp cuts physical sweepers' attack in half so that those powerful 30-40% damaging moves no longer become a problem for Dusknoir. Pain Split takes his low HP to an advantage allowing Dusknoir to restore a huge % of HP.

Dusknoir has other options though such as a Calm Mind + Will-O-Wisp set to become bulky on both ends. You could use Rest + Sleep Talk for survivability, but you will lack good support moves and power because of it. Destiny Bond could be a nice surprise during Trick Room, but would be pointless other wise because your opponent can see the move since you will go second a lot. Toxic mostly makes a poor alternative to Will-O-Wisp and Psych Up could copy your opponent's offensive and defensive stat gains, though the decrease of Calm Mind and Bulk Up have made this move used even less than in Adv.

Ability: Pressure

(Offensively) - Pressure doesn't really do much offensively

(Defensively) - Causing your opponent to run out of PP faster can make walling slightly easier and more rewarding. You could Rest + Sleep Talk to abuse this ability, but this could easily drag on longer than you might want and can allow your opponent to set up sweepers.

Overall uses

(Offensively) - Dusknoir can rack up effect damage with Wisp, KO Gyarados and Hera with Thunder/Fire Punch and can get easy kills on many Special Sweepers and make general revenge kills with Shadow Sneak.

(Defensively) - Dusknoir is basically a wall somewhat similar to Weezing. Just be watchful of Dark and Ghost moves which you will need to have a back up steel type or Intimidater to take the hits.

PS: I agree with Chill that this format is a little bulky and causes Repitition. In my opinion, we should take out the Base Stat uses section since any stat that is 100+ is of course usable and anything 65- most likely is not. Besides, you can see how the stats influence the strategies of the pokemon through out the other sections.

 

[titus]

I hope that this isn't horrible.

Absol
Type: Dark
Ability: Pressure/SuperLuck

BaseStats
HP: 65
ATK: 130
DEF: 60
SPATK: 75
SPDEF: 60
SPD: 75

Typing: Dark

Offensively: Along with pursuit he has sucker punch an 80 base damage attack that allows absol to attack first, and with his 130 base attack and not so good speed this is a very useful attack. He also has night slash, a 75 base damage attack that has a higher chance of delivering a critical hit, and when combined with his ability super luck, there is a good chance that he will make one. Dark pulse can be used on a choice specs set.

Defensively: Allows absol to switch in on psychic pokemon or psychic attacks and follow up with a swords dance or a pursuit to get psychic pokemon as they flee. However his fragile defense stats and hp dont allow him to switch in on much else. However if you use focus sash you can also switch into ghost types without worrying about dying.

BaseStats

Offensively: It is clear where Absol stands out in base stats, that of course being his beautiful attack. With his base stat of 130 attack he makes a good physical sweeper. Unfortunately he doesnt have a very diverse physical movepool. With his low special attack people usually disregard it, however, Absol can reach around 400 special attack with choice specs, and he has a nice special movepool with things like flamethrower, ice beam and thunderbolt, and of course his stabbed dark pulse.

Defensively: Well I have to say, if you didn't already figure out that Absol is lacking in the defense area you are dumb, or didn't look at his base stats. However, absol has calm mind to reduce his special fragileness.

MovePool

Offensive
SwordsDance
Curse
NightSlash
SuckerPunch
PsychoCut
Pursuit
StoneEdge
RockSmash
X-Scissor
MeFirst
DarkPulse
HiddenPowerFighting
Flamethrower
FireBlast
IceBeam
Thunderbolt
WaterPulse

Lets see, SwordsDance and curse are to raise his already gargantuam?? attack power. NightSlash, Pursuit, SuckerPunch, and DarkPulse are his STAB moves. PsychoCut is for fighting types that want to ruin your fun. StoneEdge and X-Scissor are for Houndoom and Weavile. RockSmash is for Tyranitar, Weavile, Lucario, Houndoom, Aggron, Bastiodon, Probopass, Skarmory, and Steelix. MeFirst is somewhat uncommon and can deal a lot of damage if used properly. HPFighting is for dark types, Thunderbolt for water types like Gyarados, IceBeam for dragons and ground types, WaterPulse for rock and fire types like Rhyperior and Infernape, and Flamethrower for steel types and Heracross.

Defensive
CalmMind
Substitute
BatonPass
Taunt
MeanLook
MagicCoat

CalmMind is useful when combined with BatonPass to give other special sweepers a boosted attack, Taunt helps to prevent yourself from getting phazed. MeanLook traps things so that you can BatonPass out of them. Substitute is helpful with SwordsDance passing. MagicCoat reflects leechSeed and status moves.

Status
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp
ThunderWave
PsychUp
PerishSong

Toxic posions things, Will-O-Wisp is for burning things, and ThunderWave helps Absol's mediocore speed. PerishSong and PsychUp are good against a BatonPassing team.

Ability

SuperLuck: Offensive
Increases the chance of a critical hit which is good alongside moves like NightSlash, PsychoCut, and StoneEdge.

Pressure: Defensive
Good if you can stall, otherwise I see no way to use this ability to its full extent due to the fragileness that is Absol.

OVERALL

Offense
Very good with critical hit moves and STAB moves, with a good special movepool.

Defense
Very not good. Yes thats bad grammar i know, he has good status moves and CalmMind other than that he's not that good.

And that's my RTP for Absol.