Reverse uB Help

[KeO C.]

So every once in a while ill do a reverse uB(wavebounce, right?) and instinctively bair out of nowhere. Ive always done on accident and now recently ive been trying to duplicate it ...i can get it right sometimes going left but thats about it. Im not sure how to perform this action properly, so i decided to ask the community lol.

I do see this as a good tool, probably following up through platforms or shield pressure w/ dair. Although i don't ever see it used by anyone

 

[BND]

Most people don't wavebounce Cypher -> dair, because if you got the cypher going on their shield, chances are that they're still shielding, meaning that a sticky in that situation would be a more optimal punish. I can't really think of any platform tech chase situation that you'd need a wavebounce cypher for as well, so there's also that to consider. If you're just referring to cypher -> down aerial pressure on shield, down aerial's actually the most negative of Snake's aerials on block, so using it for pressure's ill-advised. (There is a silly thing you could do with down air: while stomping on their shield, you could potentially push them off the platform to get them to stop shielding and land some unexpected hits, which could lead to a potential followup. Most of the time they're in the center of the platform though, and if you do it enough they'll start to expect this and either shield DI or tech appropriately once they've fallen off the platform, so don't rely on this.)

As for the inputs required, it sounds like a half-circle starting from the direction you're moving in to the opposite direction, with B pressed right when the halfway point (up) is reached. As for your bair, not quite sure where that would come from or how it'd be useful, though in that case it would be a 698B746A input in terms of fighting game notation (Alternatively, you're using the C-stick to input the bair, which doesn't seem likely given the way you're wording this)

LATE EDIT: 2 things I somehow forgot to mention:
1. If your opponent decides to buffer a spotdodge or a roll while the sticky attempt is happening, your sticky will miss and fall onto the ground (which, depending how you handle it, could possibly be a very bad thing; I have a bad habit of never using grounded C4 in neutral to my own advantage). That's the main scenario in which down aerial off of cypher will be useful, since down aerial, especially 4th hit (Haven't tested the first 3 hits) provides Snake with mostly optimal punish options.

2. Up air's may be tied for (probably second in ranking, though) Snake's best aerial in this scenario if you're not going for a C4. It's the least negative of his aerials on block if spaced correctly with respect to the ground (-2), meaning that jab could be used to cover up air if it's shielded. If you get lucky, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzF2VM2kL_w might also happen, but don't bank on it.

 

[KeO C.]

Most people don't wavebounce Cypher -> dair, because if you got the cypher going on their shield, chances are that they're still shielding, meaning that a sticky in that situation would be a more optimal punish. I can't really think of any platform tech chase situation that you'd need a wavebounce cypher for as well, so there's also that to consider. If you're just referring to cypher -> down aerial pressure on shield, down aerial's actually the most negative of Snake's aerials on block, so using it for pressure's ill-advised. (There is a silly thing you could do with down air: while stomping on their shield, you could potentially push them off the platform to get them to stop shielding and land some unexpected hits, which could lead to a potential followup. Most of the time they're in the center of the platform though, and if you do it enough they'll start to expect this and either shield DI or tech appropriately once they've fallen off the platform, so don't rely on this.)

As for the inputs required, it sounds like a half-circle starting from the direction you're moving in to the opposite direction, with B pressed right when the halfway point (up) is reached. As for your bair, not quite sure where that would come from or how it'd be useful, though in that case it would be a 698B746A input in terms of fighting game notation (Alternatively, you're using the C-stick to input the bair, which doesn't seem likely given the way you're wording this)

Yea i am using c-stick for bair but i just started thinking about reverse uB and the possibilities, not so much the practical uses yet as for im relatively new to the smash scene(7ish months) and when i just recently learned about the wavebounce technique, i thought to try it with snake! Anyways, thats is a silly way to use ub>dair?! Would hav never thought of a uses like that! Also, i only thought of reverse uB through platform just for a combo off a missed
tech or something.

Indeed will i need to try some things out and thanks for the help and the helpful info!!

 

[cisyphus]

Snake has no good aerial on block, but dair tends to be all right in terms of repositioning in that you can use it to cross up on a shield and reset to neutral. The more essential idea is that you don't remain in front of your opponent because they can literally shieldgrab every option Snake has out of Cypher. Dair has the added advantage of coming out faster than any other aerial, which lets you keep that shield pressure going until you're safe from getting grabbed. This can be done with nair as well but is less airtight iirc. The advantage of nair is that it has 4 frames less endlag than dair.

But yeah, if your opponent's on a platform and has missed a tech, just C4 them. It's so much better in the long run. If they're already C4'd, you can actually full hop nair/dair to jab reset them and then fast fall l-cancel into a grab or u-tilt or d-tilt or whatever. Wavebounce Cypher seems the least useful of Snake's wavebounce choices. If you can get the input down pat, wavebounce C4 is fantastic for safe sticking, as you often run the risk of trading a C4 for a hit (which can lead into massive combos). Wavebounce grenade pull is situationally useful for recoveries I'd imagine (just to mix up movement a bit) and wavebounce SH tranq could be a good movement mixup as well. It's a haphazard tech, though, and there seems to be a wealth of more important things to focus on first.

 

[Phresh123]

Off topic question:

When you grab with Snake, how do you walk with your opponent while grabbing them?

 

[BND]

It might be a good idea to check through all of the Snake board threads (since there are only two pages of topics), and if you don't find anything, start a new topic, but here you go: http://smashboards.com/threads/snake-walking-grab.346284/

 

[cisyphus]

Pointing out as well that the d-pad MUST be bound to side taunts in order to do this. I set it to Attack for ez pika jabs and found it will pummel instead. It also doesn't work when side taunt is mapped to another button (x in my case). Interesting tidbit for y'all.

 

[KeO C.]

Snake has no good aerial on block, but dair tends to be all right in terms of repositioning in that you can use it to cross up on a shield and reset to neutral. The more essential idea is that you don't remain in front of your opponent because they can literally shieldgrab every option Snake has out of Cypher. Dair has the added advantage of coming out faster than any other aerial, which lets you keep that shield pressure going until you're safe from getting grabbed. This can be done with nair as well but is less airtight iirc. The advantage of nair is that it has 4 frames less endlag than dair.

But yeah, if your opponent's on a platform and has missed a tech, just C4 them. It's so much better in the long run. If they're already C4'd, you can actually full hop nair/dair to jab reset them and then fast fall l-cancel into a grab or u-tilt or d-tilt or whatever. Wavebounce Cypher seems the least useful of Snake's wavebounce choices. If you can get the input down pat, wavebounce C4 is fantastic for safe sticking, as you often run the risk of trading a C4 for a hit (which can lead into massive combos). Wavebounce grenade pull is situationally useful for recoveries I'd imagine (just to mix up movement a bit) and wavebounce SH tranq could be a good movement mixup as well. It's a haphazard tech, though, and there seems to be a wealth of more important things to focus on first.

Snake has no good aerial on block, but dair tends to be all right in terms of repositioning in that you can use it to cross up on a shield and reset to neutral. The more essential idea is that you don't remain in front of your opponent because they can literally shieldgrab every option Snake has out of Cypher. Dair has the added advantage of coming out faster than any other aerial, which lets you keep that shield pressure going until you're safe from getting grabbed. This can be done with nair as well but is less airtight iirc. The advantage of nair is that it has 4 frames less endlag than dair.

But yeah, if your opponent's on a platform and has missed a tech, just C4 them. It's so much better in the long run. If they're already C4'd, you can actually full hop nair/dair to jab reset them and then fast fall l-cancel into a grab or u-tilt or d-tilt or whatever. Wavebounce Cypher seems the least useful of Snake's wavebounce choices. If you can get the input down pat, wavebounce C4 is fantastic for safe sticking, as you often run the risk of trading a C4 for a hit (which can lead into massive combos). Wavebounce grenade pull is situationally useful for recoveries I'd imagine (just to mix up movement a bit) and wavebounce SH tranq could be a good movement mixup as well. It's a haphazard tech, though, and there seems to be a wealth of more important things to focus on first.

Yeah it seems to me the wavebounce uB is harder to pull off than the c4, nade, and tranq too so ima start focusing on the other since they have more pratical uses. I do the wavebounce nade and tranq more than anything but the C4!! That sounds very useful and very unused in my arsenal lol gona start trying that out!

 

[cisyphus]

And to dispel a slight bit of misinformation: "1. If your opponent decides to buffer a spotdodge or a roll while the sticky attempt is happening, your sticky will miss and fall onto the ground." The actuality is that, if you've already inputted the C4 stick when this happens, it will fail to be placed at all, rather than "fall to the ground." I'm not positive that this is what BND means, but that should be taken note of.

I think the most difficult part of wavebounce C4 (once you figure out the input) is actually getting the spacing right for precisely this reason, because you have to be within range to stick for the seventh and/or eighth frames (I'm not quite sure if it's both or just the eighth). Given that it's also only applicable in the air, that's just adding more dimensions to it in general. I would say as a training regime:

1. Consistent input (just work on wavebounce as a mechanic)
2. Then apply this to an opponent on a platform (this reduces the variable of the opponent's aerial movement)
3. Apply this to an opponent during a combo (such as u throw on mid% fast fallers, so that they have less influence overall)
4. Apply this to an opponent in the neutral (so that you can understand when it's safe to do it vs. a fully capable reactor)

The first can even be useful in situations like recoveries in order to mix up how you're moving (but is probably better served with grenades because of the hitbox cover)
The second can be useful for safely shield sticking opponents like spacies who can just shine OOS and punish you regardless.
The third can be useful for catching floaty characters like Peach or Puff without trading hits (because u throw -> c4 isn't even close to guaranteed at most percents).
The fourth is just swag status.

 

[BND]

According to my testing, if the opponent somehow disappears from the hitbox on frame 9 (which happens in many more situations than most would think, sadly, given that this seems to happen on a regular basis to me), the sticky just falls to the floor. For the stick to happen, it's absolutely necessary that the opponent is in the hitbox for frame 7, and presumably frame 8 as well (though I can't think of any convenient scenario in which the opponent's in the hitbox for frame 7 and 9 but not frame 8).

As for wavebounce stickies, I personally haven't had time to invest into incorporating it into my gameplay yet, but if anyone needs a more explicit list of inputs, using standard numpad notation (6 forwards, 4 backwards, 2 down, 8 up, etc), I believe the input would be 64(2B)364.

EDIT: Scratch that; it turns out that it's more of a 6(1B)64 input, and seems like it's a bit more trouble than it's worth: wavebounce only has a few frames for input (unsure of how many), Snake has the worst aerial mobility in the game, so you'd need to get a running start to get the wavebounce to go anywhere, which proceeds to make the effective hitbox of the C4 Jigglypuff-rest tier. It may have a niche use as a mixup for avoiding retaliation (In the sense of "is he going to go behind me or wavebounce), but that's a bit next-level and overall it seems that if you're going to stick, it'd be better to just go straight through the opponent afterwards. It opens up an opportunity for a back air if the opponent's still in hitstun after the stick (or about to land)