Reverse Egg Stall (previously named unknown tech)

[HeyThereListener]

Hey could anyone help me understand what is happening at the 9:40 mark of this Amsa tech video? How does he change direction on a dime with his double jump so that he can egg stall and still grab ledge facing the other way. I get that yoshi can be facing either way during this animation but I always travel too far away. Any thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igQe3Xkb4u0

Edit: I think I found a pretty consistent way to pull this off, with proper timing it also has a good safety net so you can easily get back to the stage or obtain more height than necessary and then throw an egg to re-grab like a normal egg stall.

It involves moving the control stick through the following two fluid movements:

1. Do a quick half circle away from ledge, then up to double jump, then towards ledge. Doing the first half quickly, then hold the up area just enough to keep a safe height, then asap, fade back to the ledge.

2. Up b and aim egg to edge guard and re-grab the ledge.

The safety comes with the ability to hold the directions up and towards the ledge longer to ensure not losing the stock, then working slowly into smaller movements as you become more comfortable.
I would recommend practicing in 2/3 speed in training mode, just to get the motion down (I play 20xx, I don't think it matters though)
Common mishaps for me seem to be pressing b too early or too late and egg rolling (usually to my death), or not getting close enough to the edge. Not gaining enough height is a less common but viable problem for me.

Applications are more reliable edge guarding for more specific distances and shorter time as it doesn't have to arc over yoshi.

This is still a new idea for me but I am excited to grow and share it. If you have any questions, concerns or skepticalities (not a word) I would love to discuss this topic.

 

[kofinater]

IIRC you onlly can hold back for 1 frame to turn around, anymore and you drift to far

 

[HeyThereListener]

My problem there is that I think Yoshi needs to be in his double jump for more than 1 frame, or else he doesn't grab ledge, even with regular egg stall.

 

[kofinater]

ya he does so you have to jump, turn around for a frame then wait to throw the egg. From this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/some-yoshi-information.351635/

Spoiler: Reverse Edge Cancelled Eggs (1-frame vulnerability)

1 Grab Ledge
9 Let go
10 Reverse Double Jump (angled up)
11 Hold backward
21 Egg Toss
38 [Vulnerable] [Hitbox]
39 [Grab Ledge]

Holding backwards can be done as late as frame 14 and can be held at an upwards angle (so you don’t have to move the stick on frame 21) as long as you are holding it by frame 12. Pressing X or Y is not required for the Double Jump because angling the stick diagonally will cause you to jump.

This highlights an interesting feature of Yoshi's double jump (and potentially others as well): it not only has a diagonal variation in addition to the reverse version, but this diagonal reverse double jump allows you to drift backwards at the beginning. Without this, the GIF shown above would be impossible.

 

[HeyThereListener]

Ok I can see it coming together now. Thanks a lot!

 

[Pabmyster]

I'm not trying to discourage you, but this is so difficult to do that it just isn't worth spending time on learning, no matter how good it is in theory. That doesn't mean you can't make it work, but js, s*** is tight frame wise.

 

[MurphyPrime]

It isn't ridiculously hard to do the mechanic compared to most tech skill in the game (or other yoshi techniques). Aiming the egg to any extent is where I struggle to do it properly. If you can get a rhythm for the mechanic it gets easier to handle. It is extremely risky since messing it up makes you lose your jump which probably isn't worth the risk.

 

[Kimimaru]

I consider consistent RECEs to easily be one of the hardest, if not the hardest, useful techniques in the game.

 

[MurphyPrime]

That's why I said it isn't ridiculously hard. I agree it is hard but I think Parrying proficiently to be up there for difficulty. Doing the technique with regularity is definitely where it becomes crazy. Being so frame tight is annoying.

 

[ZEN 777]

That's why I said it isn't ridiculously hard. I agree it is hard but I think Parrying proficiently to be up there for difficulty. Doing the technique with regularity is definitely where it becomes crazy. Being so frame tight is annoying.

That's Yoshi for you though.

High risk, high reward.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I'd say more high risk, decent reward.

 

[kofinater]

I'd say more high risk, decent reward.

I feel like that more encapsulates yoshi, a bunch of high risk tech with only moderate reward lol

 

[MurphyPrime]

Like if yoshi was played at TAS level he would be pretty awesome, but it's so crazy that very few humans could get close to it (Amsa and V3ctorman being the only ones I know of off hand).

 

[HeyThereListener]

Just edited this discussion in the description, would love your thoughts!!

 

[MurphyPrime]

Is it really that much better? It's kind of just doing what kofinator mentioned earlier. Unless I am missing something. Have you actually used it in a match? Does it help? Nice work if you managed to consistently do it. I haven't practiced with yoshi in a while so I can't do it.

 

[HeyThereListener]

The biggest thing for me was without the fluid half circle motion, I was wasting a lot of time moving my control stick through center and having to have very precise inputs. I don't think it takes too much practice compared to the tech of some other characters and other yoshi tech like parrying and shield drop-platform cancelling. I would say it is just as useful as any other tech once you learn it, just another tool to use. It acts a lot quicker than an egg stall facing the wrong direction and there's more accuracy, and if you can learn to be consistent it makes the former obsolete.

 

[MurphyPrime]

Interesting. Have you had success implementing it in matches? And I think parrying is the hardest to implement with Yoshi due to it being out of your own hands somewhat. Like the opponent using a different move might alter the timing and mess it up.

 

[HeyThereListener]

I agree, parrying is an unbelievably difficult skill. I'm still practicing the egg stall, yesterday was my first time trying this new technique, so it is not quite there yet. I remember learning egg stalls and other ledge game with yoshi was similarly frustrating before, so I'm optimistic that it's doable. Yeah, I'm still trying to find the best way to practice parrying. Right now I just set a 20xx cpu to repeat a predictable move like c. falcon's raptor boost or fox's approaching aerials. What would be really helpful is if there was a delay timer on the moves so you have time to readjust after say a falco laser. A cool and relatively easy use of parry is to parry a projectile, jump out using up on the control stick, then transitioning this into an egg throw (projectile of your own/ maybe two if you power shielded).

 

[MurphyPrime]

I've parried a couple of times I can remember and it was cool but it doesn't really help unless you are at a super high level. Your time is better spent trying to come up with useful ways of using Yoshi's super armour. Good luck to you!

 

[yink059]

try to play friendlies against falcos... I find them to be the easiest to parry. if a fox is smart he'll just dair shine all day against you and wont give much parry oppurtunity. personally the hardest character to parry consistently is definitely marth, and this balances out a bit with marth's aerials being stuffed by super armor a lot of the time. you can also just waveland back out of a parry if a falco is laser spamming mid/close range. if hes longer range just evade/SH OoP