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Resist Berries and the Metagame

ss118

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I figured it should go here, since this is competitive and this might involve research so lol. Not to mention this thread needs more going in it other than the lead thread.

So what are you're opinion(s) on the resist berries? What pokemon seems to use them the best? Who uses them the most?

Personally I think the metagame would be a whole lot more playable if they disappeared. Imagine if you didn't need to worry about Shuca Heatran, Occa Bronzong/ Metagross, Yache garchomp, or even things like babiri tar.
 

Wave⁂

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They don't make much a difference, really. OccaGross and BabiriTar are the most common type-resist berry users, and it's fairly obvious what item is being used.
 

Circa

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I personally feel as though OccaGross and ShucaTran are the most effective resist berry users. OccaGross is one of the most stable leads in the current metagame and when mixed with the prospect that it could be LumGross instead, it's truly a pain. And ShucaTran is just a really good mindgame if used correctly (as well as a decent lead).

Obviously BabiriTar is good as well. My biggest issue with BabiriTar is just that as soon as he uses DD (which tends to be the only set to run Babiri), it can be assumed. ShucaTran and OccaGross just don't give away the berry like BabiriTar tends to.

And WacanDos is alright too, I guess. It just tends to benefit from LO or Leftovers a lot more than it does from Wacan Berry. And I think that's the main issue a lot of resist berries have: they're usually outclassed.

I do agree the metagame would be better without them though. They just seem to overcomplicate things in most cases.
 

Wave⁂

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WacanDos isn't very popular because Electric-type attacks aren't the main route taken to KO it. See a Tyranitar? Bullet Punch it. See a LeadGross? Fire Blast it. See a Heatran? **** yeah, quadruple Ground weakness. It's not that simple with Gyarados. Celebi can use Grass Knot, Latias can use Dragon Pulse, Salaemence uses Draco Meteor and Outrage.
 

Pink Reaper

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The thing with WacanDos is it's similar to TTar in that the idea is that if you get a +1 DD you're opponent basically has to hit it with that electric attack or risk not killing it. The big difference however is the 4x weakness and -25% if SR is up making it alot less worth it.

Babiri Berry on TTar is essentially to force a no win situation for your opponent. At +1 speed and > 50% health there's not much that's going to out speed and OHKO TTar without a scarf with the exception of Scizor. If your opponent brings in a Scizor on your DD they are left with a pretty much lose/lose situation.
 

Rumikun

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I feel that Yachechomp would have a harder time surviving in the current OU. The standard metagame now consists primarily of stab and priority moves with an emphasis on mid-game trapping. Yachechomp finds a wasted item here that could otherwise be a choice band or a choice scarf for maximum utility.

I also feel that resist berries are one of the reasons that Lucario becomes so ridiculously threatening.
 

Wave⁂

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Haban is relatively common in Ubers, what with half the population having STAB Dragon-type attacks.
 

ss118

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one of the most common way to counter threats such as Palkia and Garchomp is to use Scarfed Dragon attacks to hit them and KO them.

Stopping that kill and KOing them back is better, imo.
 

supermarth64

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Haban is relatively common in Ubers, what with half the population having STAB Dragon-type attacks.
| Garchomp | Item | Haban Berry | 13.9 |
| Giratina | Item | Other (2) | < 3.4 |
| Latios | Item | Other (2) | < 2.2 |
| Latias | Item | Other (4) | < 2.8 |
| Palkia | Item | Other (5) | < 3.5 |
| Rayquaza | Item | Other (8) | < 3.3 |

Yea that's relatively common only on Garchomp.
 

Gates

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And that's only if you consider 13% common.

Could fire berry Scizor or Forretress possibly be viable? I personally doubt it but I ask for the sake of discussion.
 

ss118

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On my Stall team I'm testing I use Occa Berry Forretress to stop pesky Magnezone's from trapping me, which is why I also run Earthquake on it as well.

Chople Berry + Counter has proven time and time again to be a very devious tactic, whether it be on pokemon such as Snorlax, Blissey, or even Tyranitar!
 

Gates

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That reminds me of Chople Umbreon which is also occasionally used. Lefties is definitely more prominent and better though.
 

ss118

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actually chople umbreon is useful to trap that one fighting pokemon so you can set up and sweep the opposing team.....

....except no one uses choiced fighting attacks anymore.
 

Terywj [태리]

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And that's only if you consider 13% common.

Could fire berry Scizor or Forretress possibly be viable? I personally doubt it but I ask for the sake of discussion.
Is Scizor's special defense good enough to take a Flamethrower with Occa and return fire (pardon the pun)?

-Terywj
 

UltiMario

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Against almost all Fire-users...

No. Not even with Max HP/SpD
 

Gates

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lol I was thinking more like a Fire Punch from Jirachi or TTar.
 

Circa

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Riddle said:
Scizor used Bullet Punch! Babiri Berry weakened the attack! Tyranitar used Fire Punch! Occa Berry weakened the attack! Muk you Babiritar :p
Riddle can't post here.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Would Scizor need to invest heavily in HP / Defense to weather out the initial Fire Punch, though?

Yeah, Riddle was rejected for becoming a Researcher...
 

Metal~Mario

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^Why?

Riddle is definitely knowledgeable enough.

Hmmmmm...calc time=

Adamant 252 LO Ttar uses Fire Punch on Adamant 0/0 Scizor: 169.4%-200.7%

With an Occa Berry, that becomes 84.7%-100.5%

Whereas Impish 252/252 Scizor takes 100%-118.6%, 50%-59.3% with an Occa Berry.

So, unless Ttar is running neutral Attack nature or a weaker item, you'll need an Occa Berry to survive.
 

supermarth64

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Riddle said:
Occa berry Scizor needs 248 HP/80 Def and a neutral nature to take a +1 Adamant 252 Atk Babiri BerryTyranitar Fire Punch after SR damage (He survives SR and Fire Punch with 1 HP). If ttar doesn't have +1 then even with 0/0 you take 77.6% max.

he needs 232 HP to take Jolly +1 fire Punch
Lol Life Orb Ttar with Fire Punch. That's just ASKING to get owned by Scizor. If you're using Life Orb, go use Aqua Tail or something to hit Gliscor/Hippowdon.
 

ss118

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or you could go scarf and use superpower on scizor.

One of my favorite things to do with a team is use Occa Berry on both metagross and bronzong. After that you've likely lured and killed their Fire type(Heatran/ Infernape), or cripple pokemon they might be using fire attacks with to help counter said Steel types(Zapdos and Salamence come to mind). After that, use something like Ragequit Jirachi and **** the opponent afterwards.

I suggest even after that having a backup for fire type attacks still.
 

Pink Reaper

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Scarf Scizor is REALLY pushing it.

You'd absolutely have to run Jolly(I run Jolly DDTar D:<) and with such a huge drop in power you suddenly become an *** bad pokemon. As it is you wouldnt even be able to guarantee an OHKO on Latias(98% max) and once people know you're scarfed you lose a huge amount of usefulness. Dont let n00bs fool you, the real reason Scizor is beastly has nothing to do with technician bullet punch, it's all about it's stupidly strong CB U-Turn. BP is just icing on the cake. The huge difference between BabiriTar and Scarf Scizor is that while they're both made to basically counter 1 very specific pokemon, BabiriTar does it while maintaining power and flexibility. Scarf Scizor has none of that O.O

/read too much into that statement.
 

CT Chia

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type resist berries are my least fav items. they change a big mechanic and ruin a lot of strategies. i think the metagame would be a lot better without them
 

ss118

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Scarfed Scizor is actually very nice: with Bug hitting a lot of things SE, it can force a lot of pokemon into a "switch or die" scenario. And if you don't feel like that and just want them dead, technician pursuit is almost as strong as Tyranitar's STAB Pursuit. The extra base 4 attack make a difference, and there's a huuuuge difference if they actually switch. It doesn't give a **** if that Latias or Gengar has HP Fire, or if that Tyranitar has a Babiri Berry: you die. Period.
 

Pink Reaper

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Well no, here's the thing. The "Switch or die" situation happens MORE with CB Scizor but has the added bonus of being extremely threatening to whatever actually switches in. A 591 attack U-turn will seriously maim anything, switch or not but a 359 attack anything is significantly less threatening. And actually it DOES give a **** if Gengar or Latias has HP Fire, cus if you pursuit and they DONT switch out they're left with a sizable chunk of health left. ONLY BabiriTar is actually OHKO'd and only by Super Power.
 

supermarth64

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The thing is, you have to play Scarf Scizor differently. Fast U-turn is great, as it prevents Scizor from taking potential damage. Moreso, it puts Latias and Gengar in a checkmate position if they're low on health. If CB Scizor comes in on Gengar/Latias, you're stuck with a 50/50 chance of winning. However, if Scarf Scizor comes in and they're weakened already, then you pretty much always win. Also, Scarf Scizor doesn't bring sandstorm with it, which can hinder offensive teams.
 

supermarth64

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How does Scizor get hit? If you're hitting Gengar, Technitian Pursuit does like 75% min, meaning SR + LO or 2 SR recoils will KO it. Meanwhile, fast U-turn means that Scizor won't get hit by HP Fire, meaning that you can U-turn out without having to take any damage.
 

Pink Reaper

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Im gonna ignore U-turn since it does a massive 19.5% maximum to Gengar. I guess its good if you have the old ScizorTran combo though.

Im not saying Scarf Scizor is bad either, im just saying it's not good. It's a specialized set, one made to counter only EXTREMELY specific opponents(BabiriTar/Gengar/non-bulky Latias) and loses it's ability to support a team with a U-turn that takes a good 40-50% chunk out of everything and a bullet punch that can counter OTHER common threats like ScarfGon and DDmence.
 

DMG

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CB Scizor is clearly > CS Scizor. CB Scizor has so much Utility and you basically throw that away for specific counters to threats that you could PROBABLY counter with another pokemon easier.

Think about when you use Uturn. You use it more to add damage and have the switch advantage, not to try and guarantee the kill on a threat. If you are running a scarf on him to guarantee you get the Uturn on them first, you are probably better off putting a scarf on something else and having them do that job while CB Scizor sits back and hits like a truck with his Uturn and BP and does more useful things for you team than an arguably gimmicky set on him. CS Scizor has its place in the metagame, and that's behind CB Scizor in terms of overall usefulness. CS Scizor would be more viable IF it countered specific threats that other Pokemon struggled to counter, or it countered a wider range of Pokemon. If you are using that set to try and get guaranteed pursuits, you are better off using Tyranitar for that role to guarantee those Pokemon die since he is beefier and doesn't need to run a scarf to threaten them.

For resist berries, I like them. They aren't too OP, and yet they do their job wonderfully. Pokemon is a game about educated guesses. Having to factor in a resist berry isn't much harder than factoring the possibilities of other items being used. There aren't too many pokemon that REALLY benefit from it, and the ones that do you tend to be sweepers so they miss out on Life Orb/Leftovers which IMO is a fair trade off for what the berries give.
 

supermarth64

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I'm bored.
CB Scizor is clearly > CS Scizor.
It depends on the situation. Neither set is truly better than the other.
CB Scizor has so much Utility and you basically throw that away for specific counters to threats that you could PROBABLY counter with another pokemon easier.
Scarf Scizor still has utility and can check other threats that CB Scizor can't.

Think about when you use Uturn. You use it more to add damage and have the switch advantage, not to try and guarantee the kill on a threat.
You still add damage and have the switch advantage with Scarf Scizor. Arguably it's better because Scizor isn't taking any damage other than entry hazards because you're switching into something that resists the attack launched at Scizor. If you were to use CB, then Scizor's the one taking the hit, limiting the number of times it can switch in.
If you are running a scarf on him to guarantee you get the Uturn on them first, you are probably better off putting a scarf on something else and having them do that job while CB Scizor sits back and hits like a truck with his Uturn and BP and does more useful things for you team than an arguably gimmicky set on him.
However, having two Choice users in that way limits your team. Scarf is more useful in some cases because guaranteed damage is better than no damage at all. Let's say you were up against a Gengar without a Substitute. If you were CB, you have to choose 50/50 between Pursuit and Bullet Punch, both of which could end up with your Scizor dead/at a disadvantage if the Gengar has HP Fire. However, with Scarf Scizor, you can just freely Pursuit and take care of Gengar if it's suffered a bit of residual damage.
CS Scizor has its place in the metagame, and that's behind CB Scizor in terms of overall usefulness.
Again, situational.
CS Scizor would be more viable IF it countered specific threats that other Pokemon struggled to counter, or it countered a wider range of Pokemon.
Name me one other Pokemon that can check Gengar, Azelf, Starmie, Tyranitar, Infernape, Lucario (including Bullet Punch versions, something Scarf Tyranitar can't do), and non-Scarf Heatran. It has its place in the metagame.
If you are using that set to try and get guaranteed pursuits, you are better off using Tyranitar for that role to guarantee those Pokemon die since he is beefier and doesn't need to run a scarf to threaten them.
Scizor has more useful resistances and doesn't bring sandstorm along with it, causing your fragile sweepers (like Salamence) to become even more fragile. Additionally, there is no reason to compare non-Scarf Tyranitar to Scarf Scizor, as they are so different that the playstyles would be completely different. Furthermore, Tyranitar without a Scarf still risks getting burned by Rotom-A, KOed by Hydro Pump from Starmie and Focus Blast from Gengar, so it would still need a Scarf to threaten those Pokemon.
 

DMG

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It depends on the situation. Neither set is truly better than the other.
Yes, overall CB Scizor > CS Scizor.

Scarf Scizor still has utility and can check other threats that CB Scizor can't.
His overall Utility is nerfed when you put a scarf on him because his Utility stems from hitting hard, not hitting first. Let me elaborate:

Power on Uturn > Having Uturn hit first (because you use Uturn in situations where you generally aren't threatened to be killed if you move second). Because BP is priority, it benefits less from Speed than Power.

Basically, in situations you need to use BP, you want it to be as powerful as possible. If you can, you shouldn't put yourself in positions where your Uturn HAS to hit first. Hitting harder with those two moves is more important than hitting sooner with Uturn IMO.

You still add damage and have the switch advantage with Scarf Scizor. Arguably it's better because Scizor isn't taking any damage other than entry hazards because you're switching into something that resists the attack launched at Scizor. If you were to use CB, then Scizor's the one taking the hit, limiting the number of times it can switch in.
Ok here's what I'm thinking based on what you are trying to say:

Opponent has Pokemon. You expect a move Scizor resists so you throw him in. He takes this hit. Now based on what set you have, you play the situation differently. You think CS is better or just as good because you will get in Uturn first (assuming they aren't faster than you) where as I think CB is better because you hit harder and you shouldn't throw him into situations where you HAVE to have Uturn hit before them. Now here is where it gets interesting. Your CS Scizor will get Uturn in first, and if they stay in then your switch has to take the next attack. If they are a threat you wanted to BP instead, well enjoy the loss of power. On the other hand, my CB Scizor will probably have the power to deal with that threat with BP, or if I use Uturn and they stay in, Scizor takes the hit (remember you aren't trying to have him in situations where he needs to hit first) and then the switch comes in safer. Now if they switched, then CB wins because it does more damage and having a faster Uturn is irrelevant.

For his other moves, what threats are you trying to deal with that need you to have a faster Superpower or Pursuit/Night Slash? Most threats that you would want to be faster than with those moves, you won't be able to guarantee the KO without the power boost, or you are already fast enough with the CB set to take them out anyways. Why run a Scarf to deal with Gengar/Latias with HP Fire when you can run Tyranitar for those threats better?

However, having two Choice users in that way limits your team. Scarf is more useful in some cases because guaranteed damage is better than no damage at all. Let's say you were up against a Gengar without a Substitute. If you were CB, you have to choose 50/50 between Pursuit and Bullet Punch, both of which could end up with your Scizor dead/at a disadvantage if the Gengar has HP Fire. However, with Scarf Scizor, you can just freely Pursuit and take care of Gengar if it's suffered a bit of residual damage.
What if he hasn't suffered that damage? Now your set is undeniably worse at trying to handle that threat. If there are hazards or if he has taken some damage, then ok sure you get the kill with Pursuit. But you have thrown away SO much just to guarantee that one kill that it's not worth it overall.

Also factor in this: let's say that Gengar himself has a Scarf. What set handles him better? CB lol. Not saying that Scarfgar is common, but just another point that CB Scizor is almost certainly better than CS.



Name me one other Pokemon that can check Gengar, Azelf, Starmie, Tyranitar, Infernape, Lucario (including Bullet Punch versions, something Scarf Tyranitar can't do), and non-Scarf Heatran. It has its place in the metagame.
Scarf Salamence. Kills all of those threats (assuming they aren't running a scarf as well, in which case CS Scizor can't handle them all himself either). Scarf Machamp actually could as well assuming they weren't running CS as well. Scarf Infernape could cover just about all of that as well (Starmie would be a pain, everything else would probably fall to it.

Some of those threats CS is covering with a faster Super Power/moves besides Pursuit, which doesn't take into account the opponent switching where if they switch, generally it's better to hit harder than faster. This, and some of your gameplay moves become a bit more obvious. Lucario for example, there is no set besides Agility and CS that you will outspeed him. If you switch in Scizor into a Lucario, what's he to expect? If he's smart, he figures either you are running a CS set, or the offchance that it is a mindgame and you are running a Swords Dance set and you expect him to switch thinking it is CS. You know what covers them both? Switching. Meaning that your free attack that hits the other pokemon is now gonna be noticeably weaker.

Scizor has more useful resistances and doesn't bring sandstorm along with it, causing your fragile sweepers (like Salamence) to become even more fragile. Additionally, there is no reason to compare non-Scarf Tyranitar to Scarf Scizor, as they are so different that the playstyles would be completely different. Furthermore, Tyranitar without a Scarf still risks getting burned by Rotom-A, KOed by Hydro Pump from Starmie and Focus Blast from Gengar, so it would still need a Scarf to threaten those Pokemon.
Scizor can't handle Rotom H, Tyranitar has a better chance of handling him scarf or otherwise.

Tyranitar can take some hits on the Special Side. You can make a set with him SD Beefy and made to take out Starmie, Latias, Gengar, etc. IF you need those threats gone, you are better off reworking Tyranitar to cover them instead of reworking Scizor to cover them. You do NOT need a Scarf on Tyranitar to cover those threats. In reality, you can cover whatever you need by running either a beefy CB set with SD EV's, or you go the full route of SD ev's and SD + Nature for additional protection (along with some more Health EV's). Basically you make him so beefy that most pokemon he aims to take out can't 2HKO him while he can still 1HKO them.




If you are afraid of HP Fire Gengar, Latias, Starmie, or whatever, run Tyranitar suited to meet those threats instead of Scizor (Actually you can do this with Metagross too if you want, even HP Fire threats yes). Why? Because Scizor handles those pokemon with CB if they DON'T run those sets. By running a CB, you REQUIRE them to have that move (HP Fire or some attack that is used specifically against Scizor) or die. If they do indeed have it, well Tyranitar/other Pursuit user takes care of it.



Pros and cons

CB:
Pros:

- Hits harder
- BP hits with Priority, so generally no need to have it any faster
- Uturn is a move DESIGNED for scouting and doing as much damage as you can with Scizor. It is not meant for situations where you NEED it to hit first or you die.
-Counters most pokemon that CS Scizor handles unless they run a specific move/set to counter you
-Assuming you are using Uturn correctly, you want Scizor to take the non lethal hit instead of the counter/switch Pokemon. Much harder for your counter/switch to do their job when they have to take a hit, where as Scizor doesn't mind since he's gonna hit like a bus of fat people anyways

Cons:

-Pokemon you usually counter/severely threaten will beat you with certain moves or different builds designed to handle CB Scizor
-If you are trapped, say by Magnezone, there is little/no hope of outspeeding him with the SuperPower/Pursuit you are stuck on. No chip damage on him

CS
Pros:

-You hit faster
-You can kinda cover Pokemon that go out of their way to cover CB Scizor. This is mitigated slightly by the fact that you can also run other Pokemon besides a CS Scizor to cover those threats but it's still a somewhat valid point
-If trapped, you have a better chance of getting off a hit of any kind before dying

Cons:
-You lose the ability to serve as a last resort to some powerful sweeps that CB Scizor sneezes at and they die lol
-You lose the ability to hit as hard
-Even with a Scarf, you are not guaranteed to outrun certain threats you wish to cover, where as other Pokemon can cover those threats without needing to worry as much about their speed
 

ss118

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I think Specs is best anyway.

Silver Wind under Technician is awesome: not to mention the possible chance of a stat increase. Hell, you can also hit Rotom forms with Ominous Wind as well.....

hell, a U-Turn/ Bullet Punch/ Ominous Wind/ HP Fire @ Life Orb set doesn't sound THAT terrible.
 
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