Replacement for Bair from Ledge

[elvenarrow3000]

...possibly.

Okay, so if you're hanging on the ledge, you can use your bair in three ways to edgeguard. One is to drop directly into the bair, another is to ledgehop outwards and bair and the third is to ledgehop bair onto the stage.

Such edgeguards are useful because they allow you to start on the ledge, putting you in a good position for an edgehog, if needed, which limits your opponent's options, and also has the potential to reach out farther than the ledgehop dair.

However, the bair is somewhat lacking in knockback, especially noticeable at low to medium percentages, so against a character with good horizontal recovery and/or a player with good DI, it is survivable.

So to replace it (possible) I thought of... something else.

First you grab the ledge using any method you'd like.

Then you watch your spacing and bide your time until your opponent gets close. When they're close enough, hold away on the control stick to let go of the ledge and tap B, which will execute a Dancing Blade away from the stage, turning you around, but keeping you in about the same place, due to the momentum stalling nature of the Dancing Blade.

Then depending on spacing and timing, you can doublejump outwards or up to put yourself right in front of your opponent or you can just drop down.

Then finally, reverse Dolphin Slash to knock them away.

Thoughts?

 

[puckgood]

Erm..... have you tried this yet? I think I get it (it's pretty simple) but a vid of how well it might work would be nice. Sounds like it would be pretty sick if you could pull it off....

 

[Europhoria]

Not enough hitstun to work on most recoveries IMO (thinking Peach, Marth). Works on the spacies though, saw some videos of Kizzu doing it, but then there are better ways to gimp them.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Errr... no, you're not trying to hit them with the Dancing Blade, that's just to turn you around so that you can use the reverse Dolphin Slash and still recover.

I don't have a capture card or anything... but... it's pretty self explanatory... I also don't have anyone to play against at the moment, and I'm sure if I film something, people will invariably be like "zomg ur playing against a comp they r sux thus u r sux + ur vid quality sux 2".

EDIT: Also, if you decide that you don't want to use the reverse Dolphin Slash, you can still doublejump and use any aerial and still land on the stage. I just tested a little while ago. I'm pretty sure you could do another Dancing Blade then doublejump to the edge too, but I'm not certain on that.

 

[ArcNatural]

Not enough hitstun to work on most recoveries IMO (thinking Peach, Marth). Works on the spacies though, saw some videos of Kizzu doing it, but then there are better ways to gimp them.

This is right. I do this all the time, but with most characters with no startup animations for their upBs with be able to upB before your initial overB ends. Works well for characters like Fox,Falco, Falcon. But if the opponent has a no start up upB and they react fast enough this won't work.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

>_< You're only turning around with the Dancing Blade. In fact, you're trying not to hit them with it. It's so that you can actually connect with the Dolphin Slash without killing yourself.

...why is it called the Dolphin Slash, anyway? It's not very dolphin-like.

 

[HiIH]

So you'd have to time the dancing blade to turn around so you wouldn't hit them and only turn around and THEN dolphin slash.

Yeah it'd be very situational, and only useful against EXTREMELY predictable recoveries. Probably Roy, the spacies, but maybe not falcon. Sounds like a good way to get suicide kneed.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The Dolphin Slash should have more range and priority than the knee though. As long as you do it correctly and aren't too predictable, it should work against anyone that the bair would work against.

The people I don't see this working against are the teleporters (Sheik, Zelda and Mewtwo), Pichu and Pikachu.

Otherwise, they'd have to drop below you and recover from there, setting them up for a dair spike.

 

[HiIH]

spacing would have to be absolutely perfect. No room for mistakes.

Just seems like Bairs safer, because if you DON'T send them far enough with a bair, THEN you can reverse Up+b off the hitstun off the bair.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Bair has a lot of lag though, so you're not really going to be able to space it out very easily.

And the spacing's really not that difficult. The reverse Dolphin Slash has quite a lot of range.

 

[Stewie1288]

interesting. would the extra knockback from the reverse dolphin be enough to warrant you using it instead of multiple bairs though? Even if they're low percent and recover to the stage (assuming you bair > ledgehog) most Up-B recoveries have enough lag time for you to get back on the stage and f-smash or at the very least ledgehop an aerial.

my2cents.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I just figured that the extra knockback would cut down on unnecessary mistakes that might be made in the future, and it's always possible that they could DI the bair upwards from a softspot and recover over you or some such.

 

[soap]

i do this alot,
as well as just running off and reverse dolphin slashing on peach

 

[C@sH Mooney]

...possibly.

Okay, so if you're hanging on the ledge, you can use your bair in three ways to edgeguard. One is to drop directly into the bair, another is to ledgehop outwards and bair and the third is to ledgehop bair onto the stage.

Such edgeguards are useful because they allow you to start on the ledge, putting you in a good position for an edgehog, if needed, which limits your opponent's options, and also has the potential to reach out farther than the ledgehop dair.

However, the bair is somewhat lacking in knockback, especially noticeable at low to medium percentages, so against a character with good horizontal recovery and/or a player with good DI, it is survivable.

So to replace it (possible) I thought of... something else.

First you grab the ledge using any method you'd like.

Then you watch your spacing and bide your time until your opponent gets close. When they're close enough, hold away on the control stick to let go of the ledge and tap B, which will execute a Dancing Blade away from the stage, turning you around, but keeping you in about the same place, due to the momentum stalling nature of the Dancing Blade.

Then depending on spacing and timing, you can doublejump outwards or up to put yourself right in front of your opponent or you can just drop down.

Then finally, reverse Dolphin Slash to knock them away.

thats if they are under you.

If they are away from you and they can clearly get back on the stage, watch them fall and before they hit the stage/ledge, autocancel bair onto the stage to get them off.

If they are fair away and a bit under you and you know you can hit the with a jump of bair, go for it. Its safer.

Thoughts?

M2K/ken have been doing this forever.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Seriously? I've never seen them do that...

vid plz

 

[Stewie1288]

I seem to recall having seen the reverse dolphin slash edgeguard before. I'll see if I can scrounge something up.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, I've seen the reverse Dolphin Slash edgeguard against Simna, but never from the ledge.

 

[Ijuka]

All right, this will most likely not work against most people, at least when done consistantly. First of all, why from the ledge? It's just a waste of time. Your opponent can hit the lag resulting from the f-B. Up B edgeguard works decently against some characters without good horizontal aerial, but I definitely wouldn't try this against the likes of Marth and Sheik. You'd just get faired to the face.

Against space animals this, in my opinion, is just a way to look cute. They're so easy to gimp otherwise as well, you don't need to make it this complicated. Whatever suits you, though. Against Peach I sometimes would edgeguard with the up B, but I find even that too risky most of the time. I prefer doing just a normal fsmash/dtilt/edgehog mindgame edgeguard most of the time. Sometimes I might randomly drop down and up B them, but that's just used as a mindgame and not a reliable option that you can use always.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Meh. I've changed over to hitting with the reverse nair instead. Smaller knockback, but faster.

 

[soap]

reverse nair hits alot higher, and u cant go as far down, but its all situational i guess

 

[jinofcoolnes]

i dont see why the b-air is bad...

but i like useing the reverse UB sometimes.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Bair from the ledge is the only good one. This up B strat isn't good for tourneys.

 

[2-Tone]

I don't know man, it sounds neat and real flashy, but, why do that when Marth has so many other more reliable gimps off the ledge. I don't think this will ever REPLACE the bair, but it is a pretty cool alternative if you're ahead in stocks and want to add some insult to injury. Personally, I think the ledge hop dair is probably the most humiliating thing to do to someone while they're recovering.
Anyway, good post, I'm glad there are smashers like you keeping the Marth boards alive.

 

[Gian]

mmm sounds good but depending on the situation cuz if you use de dancing blade momentum then u cant use the momentum again until ur back on the stage so that could probably kill you... also sometimesyou dont have time to do it. i do something that looks like that against spacies when i see them recovery from under y keep ledgehoping into the ledge again to keep invencibility frames (against fox ... falco doest matter) then when they come y dancing blade away from the stage to stop them and make them drop then i go down and finish with: reverse dolphin slash, annother dancing blade to double jump and SD spike (on last stock), or a fair

 

[KosukeKGA]

I could imagine a Marth Fair-ing me if I messed this up.

 

[Vro]

Just stick with tipper bairs.

 

[ynnek123]

I think that was in the crapFAQS combovid too... and yeh I recall M2K doing it aswell...