Replace Counter?

[wpwood]

I was browsing twitter and came across this:

https://twitter.com/Zonate559/status/661714389742067713

I know a majority if not all of us Palutena mains agree that her counter is kinda bad and that we would much rather any of the other two down b's. I also think we'll all agree that lightweight is the best option for her down b and would love to see it be her default down b. I want to know if it's possible to change lightweight to her default down b in an update. If they can put new characters in why can't they change the move sets of old characters?

Personally if I had to choose one thing to change it would be this and I am certain many of you would agree. I use counter on an average of 0-1 times a match because of its slower start up making it harder to land meaning it's not really good for "combo" breaking like or . It feels like I am at a disadvantage in that I am lacking a move compared to my opponent. Sure counter does 1.3x damage which is more than the average counter but that means nothing if you can't land the counter.

Lightweight, I am sure we can all agree, is what palutena needs to be "viable" for tournament play. She struggles getting the kill: people that know how to DI her down throw can avoid u-air, Her smash attacks are slow and laggy, but can kill on a hard read or jab 1 at certain percents, The only tilt that can kill is up tilt and if you miss it prepare for a big punish because of how long that move last. Lightweight allows for Palutena to just do everything better. She can cover almost any landing option, edge guard, combo, and secure the kill much better than before without lightweight.

People probably think lightweight makes Palutena broken but she takes extra damage while in lightweight (knock back remains the same) and her speed is halved for 5 seconds after only 15 seconds of lightweight. Palutena has a decent run and walk speed and halving it clearly puts her in a disadvantage even if it's for only 5 seconds. She can't jump away because her air speed is halved as well and she already has one of the slower air speeds in the game. The infinite glitch was removed so lightweight is no longer an abuse-able move and it's drawbacks can take effect. Finally lightweight can only be used once every 30 seconds: 15 for using the move, 5 at grandma Palutena, and 10 more until the move is ready to be used again. That's a total of 12 uses in a 6 minute match for a total of. Lightweight clearly won't make Palutena broken and the move balances itself.

I would like it if lightweight would become the default down b in some future update and I think it's completely possible. What do you guys think about replacing counter with lightweight? I also think maybe we should ask the rest of the community, not just Palutena players, about what they would think if this change happened. More viable characters can only help the community further develop it's meta game right?

Make enough noise and Daddy Sakurai will hear us .

 

[MysteriousSilver]

It would be super rad but the chances of it actually happening are nearly zero. The only people really concerned with this are competitive Palutena players, which is a pretty tiny section of Smash Bros. fans

Edit: Sakurai if you're listening also please give Ganon Wizard's Dropkick

Edit 2: While I'm wishing I want a pony

 

[Lunacywastaken]

Lightweight is goddess-like, but changing it into her default down b is too good to be true.

Sakurai pls.

 

[wpwood]

Well I don't see a reason as to why it can't happen; the chance maybe close to 0 but it's still greater than 0. We just have to make it a thing in the community that we want it to get changed and see if it happens. I think Sakurai would listen if we got the word out there and if we're loud enough. It's not like she's going to be completely broken, just better for tournament play and more fun to play with.

All we gotta do is spread the word. I made this thread about a tweet and I hope anyone that views it shares and spreads this out among everyone in the community that they know. Not saying anything about the topic is the only reason this change will not happen. Customs got a patch all to themselves because everyone was complaining about them. If the community wasn't making such a fuss over customs would they have gotten a patch all to themselves? I don't think so.

Silence is our worst enemy and having more people speak up is the only way to even make this a possibility, and I'm sure plenty of you would love to see this change come about.

(Go Tweet Sakrai , who knows if that will work)

 

[Maraphy]

I'm willing to bet her entire design philosophy was probably something like, "mediocre character that turns godly when customs are turned on"

Sakurai is never going to change this; an incredibly small amount of people care enough about it, let alone even care about Palutena. Even when huge amounts of Smash fans ask him for something, he always remains stubborn. And on top of all that, he's stated he doesn't want to buff the KI characters because he's afraid it'll come across as biased.

Tbh, your effort would be much better spent trying to convince TOs to allow custom Mii/Palutena in default tournaments. We mentioned that pretty briefly in the social thread, but I think I'm gonna create a dedicated thread for it since it's an interesting topic imo

 

[wpwood]

I'd rather not try to convince TOs to allow custom Mii/Palutena because Miis are easier to argue for while Palutena not so much. Plus people are still a little iffy about allowing Miis to use customs, but if it was apart of the game people could still complain but they wouldn't be able to just change a rule to not allow custom Palutena. If at any chance it gets put in the game it will trump all work down the road of having to convince TOs to allow custom Palutena over and over again. Also in this case I'm just asking for one move because that is all I think is necessary to buff her to the extent to be "viable."

I don't think it would be showing bias to a KI character if we as a community ask for it and he doesn't make it a personal decision to give it to her. Convincing the rest of the community to ask for this change could prove easier than asking all TOs to change their rule sets to allow a fully custom character. So if not only the small amount of Palutena players ask for this but a majority of the community does as well, we could possibly make it happen.

The thought "It's not gonna work so why bother trying?" is why it will not work because we won't try to make a change happen.

 

[PHP]

I personally think it should be on the default set mainly because her frame data was structured around lightweight. If they gave her lightweight she would need less buffs because it makes up for all the lag on her moves. I have no idea why she was given a counter (and a slow one at that) over something that balances the character for something as sub par as a counter (she's not even a sword character) but the worse part is they gave her a reflector and a slow frame 30 projectile

 

[wpwood]

What forum would you say gets the most views on this site that is related to sm4sh and is appropriate for me to post this thread in. That way I can raise this question to a majority of the community and try to get this idea tossed around and talked about more. It's a clear and fair buff and I don't see why anyone would disagree with it.

WE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE WORK AND MAKE SOME NOISE.

Do any of you know/use reddit, because I don't and I would like to raise this topic there as well.

Let's just get the message out there and see how it goes from there. What other smash related sites or social media areas could we go to? This needs to be a group effort if we're to remotely get close to making this happen.

So I made this and I would like you guys to help me figure out where all to post this and help find any edits I should make.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zEFQw0cy9im-PR07s8D-NoCXD4H5f3DiXjpTUY0obc0/edit?usp=sharing

I already posted the paper to reddit.

@Final Fuj!n Tactics if you had actually read anything that was posted and were not being being an ignorant douche bag you would know I am not complaining about customs in any manner. I am pointing out how Palutena was designed and how she was not given a move her design was centered around. So I would hope that in the future you would actually read something before jumping to conclusions like the average person and making yourself out to be a total idiot.

It appears I put too much faith into people. They don't listen to reason; they just focus on one thing and refuse the rest even if it is logical.

A majority of people that is. Not saying everyone is like that.

Maybe through time they'll understand better that this isn't for full customs and this would help a character that needs it.

People don't want to be reasonable/fair.
The main protest seem to be that people in general hate customs and would see having lightweight as "jank" and then the "Why does your character get to use customs and not mine?".

Even though I explained why it isn't jank and why she should be able to use just the one move . I'm disappointed in the community.

What's Sakurai's email? I'll just ask him to change it to default so those suckboys can't complain about it being used then

So I posted that paper to reddit and apparently made the mistake of not clarifying that this is only asking for the one move not a full custom Palutena. Made a note about and hopefully they'll understand a little better what I'm trying to make happen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3s1ibt/palutenas_down_b_and_how_we_can_buff_her/

Also went ahead and posted it to the competitive discussion boards making sure to clarify that they should read in detail and not assume after one sentence.

http://smashboards.com/threads/making-another-character-viable.422953/

Apparently that thread belongs in 3 separate threads so I just moved it to this one

http://smashboards.com/threads/char...tourneys-tiers-theories-tactics.422864/page-4

Anyone have any other ideas of where I could post this to get the word out to more people. I'm hoping to get enough people to talk about it to make it remotely possible.

 

[TheRealPalutena]

The chances of convincing the community to just allow her to use lightweight is slim to none. It will just bring up more controversy that most people are willing to deal with...even if Palutena is a special case I guess. Though I'm willing to support it I suppose just for the sake of it. Though Idk how we would successfully reach out to people who actually care (in the competitive smash community) and get people other than Palutena players to support it at all.

 

[wpwood]

The chances of convincing the community to just allow her to use lightweight is slim to none. It will just bring up more controversy that most people are willing to deal with...even if Palutena is a special case I guess. Though I'm willing to support it I suppose just for the sake of it. Though Idk how we would successfully reach out to people who actually care (in the competitive smash community) and get people other than Palutena players to support it at all.

I've already gone to reddit and the competitive discussion boards to talk about this. I've gotten plenty of responses and the discussions are going great. Once it seems to stop being discussed in the character viability thread, I'm going to post it in the rule set thread.

 

[SonicNKnux]

Hey, just replace Counter with C-Firework and I'm good. Always wanted to try more combos with that and I get some full body invincibility too.

 

[PHP]

Hey, just replace Counter with C-Firework and I'm good. Always wanted to try more combos with that and I get some full body invincibility too.

Celestial fireworks is a better counter

 

[TheRealPalutena]

Celestial fireworks is a better counter

The fact that this is true is absolutely saddening

 

[Nah]

The problem with changing one of a character's moves in the middle of the game's life is the precedent it sets. If Palutena gets to have Counter be swapped with Lightweight in a patch, then everyone's going to be asking for their character to have one of their (bad) specials be switched with a custom move. And then people are gonna have disagreements over which move should be swapped with what or how it's not fair for DK to have Dong Cyclone in default instead of regular Spinning Kong or Ganondorf mains getting upset because they decided to not give him Wiz Dropkick, and that's just gonna be annoying as ****. I doubt that Sakurai and the dev/balance teams want to deal with switching moves around on top of everything else.

But really wpwood it's kind of a waste of time to try and do this. You can get a lot of people talking about this, yes, but it's extremely unlikely that they'd do such a change now. Sakurai's not obligated to do anything no matter how much people want it, like with the character ballot; a lot of people think that the characters that (are assumed to) have the most votes are automatically getting in, but Sakurai doesn't actually have to put them in if he doesn't want to.

Also don't respond to any user with the name Fujin, they're the patron saint of the Zeldas a known troll that keeps coming back that the staff constantly watches for.

 

[wpwood]

Celestial fireworks is a better counter

Yes that is very sad, and we need to get that changed by any means.

The problem with changing one of a character's moves in the middle of the game's life is the precedent it sets. If Palutena gets to have Counter be swapped with Lightweight in a patch, then everyone's going to be asking for their character to have one of their (bad) specials be switched with a custom move. And then people are gonna have disagreements over which move should be swapped with what or how it's not fair for DK to have Dong Cyclone in default instead of regular Spinning Kong or Ganondorf mains getting upset because they decided to not give him Wiz Dropkick, and that's just gonna be annoying as ****. I doubt that Sakurai and the dev/balance teams want to deal with switching moves around on top of everything else.

But really wpwood it's kind of a waste of time to try and do this. You can get a lot of people talking about this, yes, but it's extremely unlikely that they'd do such a change now. Sakurai's not obligated to do anything no matter how much people want it, like with the character ballot; a lot of people think that the characters that (are assumed to) have the most votes are automatically getting in, but Sakurai doesn't actually have to put them in if he doesn't want to.

The only reason I think this could happen is because all her customs are completely different from one another and that was her design philosophy. Mega Man is the only other character in the game with truly unique customs but his current specials are fine. Palutena's current specials are not fine and almost anything is better than counter and while her other 3 specials are good/have uses we would like them changed, but we don't need them changed. I don't need to go into detail on that here. We need counter changed to almost anything else. That is why this has, however small, a chance at happening compared to any other character on the roster.

If Sakurai will not change the game, I should start to move the discussion to the rule set thread and begin trying to convince people there. Although I had originally intended to target both sides from the beginning.

 

[PHP]

In counter's defense, it's better than her forward tilt and it can be used as an anti edgeguard

 

[wpwood]

In counter's defense, it's better than her forward tilt and it can be used as an anti edgeguard

Yeah it has some uses, but it also has the worst uses. You have to risk using the second laggest counter hoping your opponent attacks you.

 

[Nah]

Isn't everything better than Palutena's Ftilt tho

 

[TheJolteon]

The chances are slim to none. Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive smash community and won't replace a whole move a year into the game.

 

[wpwood]

The chances are slim to none. Sakurai doesn't care about the competitive smash community and won't replace a whole move a year into the game.

Then let's also convince the rest of the community to allow her to use customs, a pre-set of customs, or at the very least lightweight.

My vote for the pre-set would be lightweight, super speed, jump glide, explosive flame. I'm indifferent on jump glide and warp to be honest.

 

[TheJolteon]

Then let's also convince the rest of the community to allow her to use customs, a pre-set of customs, or at the very least lightweight.

My vote for the pre-set would be lightweight, super speed, jump glide, explosive flame. I'm indifferent on jump glide and warp to be honest.

I think a good way to go about is to give low tiers the option of at least 1 custom move as to even the odds

 

[wpwood]

I think a good way to go about is to give low tiers the option of at least 1 custom move as to even the odds

What defines low tier? Some low tiers have at least 1 favorable MU against 1 mid-high tier character. Should they not be allowed to use the custom in that situation? What about the low tiers that have crappy customs? What if I think my character is low tier, but the rest of the community does not? That logic will not work.

Palutena only should be allowed at the very least a pre-set of customs or only lightweight. This is because she was designed with customs in mind and having the ability to switch out her moves. No other character was designed around customs or given completely different customs.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Isn't everything better than Palutena's Ftilt tho

I legitimately can not think of a worse move than Palutena's Ftilt

Mabye Sing

 

[wpwood]

I legitimately can not think of a worse move than Palutena's Ftilt

Mabye Sing

Well. It's official. We have either the worst or second worst move in the game.

 

[Maraphy]

Then let's also convince the rest of the community to allow her to use customs, a pre-set of customs, or at the very least lightweight.

http://smashboards.com/threads/should-custom-mii-palutena-be-allowed-in-default-tournaments.422554/

this was my intent with this thread. I think this topic needs a lot more discussion in-house among palutenas before we blaze into the main community without having a bulletproof proposal, or at the very least a consensus

 

[Duplighost]

I'm actually alright with her default move set. I mean, it is not nearly as good as her customs, but I still feel like she is a good character. If she was given the ability to move during her tilts... that would be amazing. Because her tilts are predictable and she remains immobile, they're almost useless. If anything, this is the buff I would like to see, and possibly a faster Counter startup. This one is a stretch, but maybe Reflect could have an active hit box the entire time it's out? It would be much better for gimping and blocking if the opponents were forced to either go over it or under it.

 

[wpwood]

http://smashboards.com/threads/should-custom-mii-palutena-be-allowed-in-default-tournaments.422554/

this was my intent with this thread. I think this topic needs a lot more discussion in-house among palutenas before we blaze into the main community without having a bulletproof proposal, or at the very least a consensus

Very well then. I like that. I mostly just asked about her viability and got a lot of responses, it seemed that most people think she needs at least all her customs to be better but that will not solve her problems. But I don't think her customs are supposed to fix her but cover up her flaws.