Refusing to play high tiers on principle?

[HeavyLobster]

So my kid brother hadn't played in tourney in months due to school/sports, and came out to our local weekly last night, and got to Winner's Finals by pulling out his pocket Bayonetta instead of playing Shulk, his main. After doing well with her, he wouldn't play her in Winner's Finals until he was down 2-0, and then came back to tie up the set before losing in game 5. He then refused to play Bayo at all in Loser's Finals, ultimately getting 3rd despite never having placed nearly that well before. Granted a lot of his success had to do with the fact that we're a small scene and his opponents didn't really have any MU experience, but I don't feel he should feel guilty about winning with a high tier, and I tried explaining that to him(though admittedly I play Ganondorf, so I might not be the best example here) but he didn't seem interested in listening, and admitted in the middle of the match that Bayo was "OP". While I don't think that thinking you have to play high tiers is a good mentality, it's also wrong to think that you're a bad person for playing a better character, or that you don't deserve success because of your character choice. How do we address these kinds of mentalities?
Here's the twitch stream for whoever's interested. He pulls out Bayo around 32:40

 

[adom4]

I do think that not playing high tiers out of principle is stupid, but if he finds Shulk more enjoyable to play than Bayo it's a good enough reason.

 

[Eugene Wang]

I say go ahead, but realize you're going to have to do your own labbing and metagame research, and you're handicapping your own potential. Still hype to watch a mid-tier hero clutch out a game.

 

[Nobie]

It's an okay principle to have, as long as you don't complain when using a high tier would have gotten you the win, or use it as an excuse as to why you lost.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's an okay principle to have, as long as you don't complain when using a high tier would have gotten you the win, or use it as an excuse as to why you lost.

This is pretty much the kicker. It permeates a lot of low tier users and is a stigma (I think it's formally called the Low Tier option select IIRC where if you win it's like "I won with a low tier" and if you lose it's "because I picked a low tier." It doesn't always apply but this is the basic principle of the Low Tier OS)

 

[HeavyLobster]

I do think that not playing high tiers out of principle is stupid, but if he finds Shulk more enjoyable to play than Bayo it's a good enough reason.

I appreciate this as much as anyone, but he was fine with picking Bayo earlier on in the tourney, but not later on, so I feel there's a bit more to it than that, especially as it concerns the decision to pick a character in the short term as opposed to investing in a main long-term.

 

[Charoite]

I appreciate this as much as anyone, but he was fine with picking Bayo earlier on in the tourney, but not later on, so I feel there's a bit more to it than that, especially as it concerns the decision to pick a character in the short term as opposed to investing in a main long-term.

Maybe he wants to win against better players with shulk, so he can demonstrate himself that he is not carried, by bayo and that he is good enough without using a top tier.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Maybe he wants to win against better players with shulk, so he can demonstrate himself that he is not carried, by bayo and that he is good enough without using a top tier.

That's probably it. I mean I can't honestly watch the replay and conclude anything other than that Bayo was in fact carrying him, and he did seem to want to win his way.

 

[Hippieslayer]

its his choice man, if he himself truly doesnt want to win by playing a high tiers then sure

however, it seems much more likely that he's been influenced by all the whiny noobs causing him to develop an unhealthy mentality that way

heres how you tell the difference: if its his own choice, he wont mind others playing high or top tiers, if its because hes been corrupted by the whiny dipsh*t noobs then he will also think that NO ONE should play high or top tiers, and that playing them is "cheap" and all that stuff

if it turns out he has been corrupted by the whiny azz dipsh*ts, then you have a tough road ahead of you, brainwashing is hard to undo, so you must steel yourself and be ready to take all the necessary steps to save your brother

first of all you have to secretely sneak sleeping pills into his dinner, then when hes passed out asleep you must duct tape his body and put him in the cargo of your pickup and drive way out into the desert (if you dont have a pickup purchase one beforehand)

once theres you must force-feed him copious amounts of your psychedelic drugs (if you dont have any psychedelic drugs.. well you know wtf you gotta do, this is your brother we are talking about after all)

after having done that, you must put on the playlist you have created featuring brilliant play and glorious victories by players in different smash games using top tiers; 9b chaingrabbing other supposed top players into oblivion with his broken ice climbers, m2k ledgecamppwning while the crowd goes wild with anguish and boredom at the OP:ness of brawl metaknight, leffen being an asshole and playing fox, zero rocking the hoohah prepatch etc etc, the playlist must be at least three days long, and the supply of psychedelic drugs must be big enough to last throughout

as the psychedelic drugs kick in, he will begin to struggle, it will be difficult to watch and it might not even work, your brother may end up in a permanent catatonic state, or he might just lose it and start maining jigglypuff only to take all his clothes off and run around in the streets naked after drowning in pools owing to the insurmountable suckage of the pink ball, thereafter ending up in a mental institution where he walks around mumbling nonsense about bayo players being the poison that seeps into the essence of man's soul bringing about total apocalypse

BUT, theres a good chance that on the third day, the psychedelic drugs and the glorious splendor displayed in the video playlist youve created will allow him to realize the greatness of pwning and being a top player using a great character, whereafter the virus implanted into his ego by the whiny azz dipsh*t noobs will succumb to the magnificence of this sudden realization and die, after this your brother will instantly grasp the entirety of the sm4sh meta and all metas to come, he will pity shulk and forever main bayonetta into eternity, you will unwind the duct tape, and he will be born again, no one will be able to stand in his way, no one

i think deep down in your heart you know what you gotta do

 

[Charzarding]

I say go ahead, but realize you're going to have to do your own labbing and metagame research, and you're handicapping your own potential. Still hype to watch a mid-tier hero clutch out a game.

Although the Shulk community is very active.

I really like this idea of not playing high tiers because I suck at all of them. It's good to prove he doesn't rely on tier rather than skill so I think it's fine.

 

[Xermo]

There's nothing wrong with refusing to play high tiers. If he's playing for money, then it's his fault for sticking with a bad character in a bad matchup if he loses. Otherwise I'm sure he's having more fun playing a character he actually enjoys.

 

[Xandercosm]

It depends on what you want. If you want huge hype and for the whole crowd to be behind you, pick a low or mid tier/underrepresented character. If you want to push your chances of winning to the max pick a high/top tier. But, like others have said, it should really be about who you enjoy.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Plenty of people refuse to play high tiers on principle, there's nothing wrong with that. They just have to be aware of the fact that they most likely will not place as well as they could if they DID main a high tier. And if they enjoy playing their mid tier or low tier main more than playing any high tier, then they shouldn't force themselves to play a high tier. Smash Bros is a children's party game; if you aren't having fun, then what's the point of even playing?

There's also the fact that some people are actually better with their low tier or mid tier than they are with high tiers. For example, Axe the Melee Pikachu player has said that he practices Falco way more often then he practices Pikachu, but his Pikachu is still way better. I personally play both Robin and Rosalina, but my Robin is just so much better than my Rosa. Very often I'll start out a set with Rosa, get destroyed game 1, and then switch to Robin and win games 2 and 3.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Plenty of people refuse to play high tiers on principle, there's nothing wrong with that. They just have to be aware of the fact that they most likely will not place as well as they could if they DID main a high tier. And if they enjoy playing their mid tier or low tier main more than playing any high tier, then they shouldn't force themselves to play a high tier. Smash Bros is a children's party game; if you aren't having fun, then what's the point of even playing?

There's also the fact that some people are actually better with their low tier or mid tier than they are with high tiers. For example, Axe the Melee Pikachu player has said that he practices Falco way more often then he practices Pikachu, but his Pikachu is still way better. I personally play both Robin and Rosalina, but my Robin is just so much better than my Rosa. Very often I'll start out a set with Rosa, get destroyed game 1, and then switch to Robin and win games 2 and 3.

I know that. Personally my Ganondorf is better than my Ike. The issue is that he seems to like both chars, and while he might might legitimately prefer Shulk, I don't want him to feel he has to play him or avoid Bayo to prove himself. He is really committed to Shulk, but I think he also likes playing Bayo, and I don't want him to drop her completely because he feels like playing her is cheap or anything.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Just let him do whatever the hell he wants. Don't try to convince him to drop Bayo and don't try to convince him to use Bayo. If he thinks that playing Bayo is cheap, then let him think that. If he likes playing Bayo, then let him think that.

 

[SiO2]

Anyone not playing a high or top tier out of "principle", as opposed to "I like X character better", isn't playing to win.

 

[th3lazy]

It's ultimately up to the player to decide on what characters he/she wants to play. If they have more fun playing Shulk than Bayonetta, then let them. As long as the player does not make it an excuse on why he is losing, or boasting that he is winning with low tiers, it's all good.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Just to clarify, I'm not at all concerned about who he or anyone else chooses to play, but I'm mostly interested in whether or not that choice is made for the right reasons.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

I do this. Mostly because the majority of top tiers just aren't for me, but also because I want to be unique. It is a real phenomenon, and it's the reason why low tier mains exist. They want to prove that lists and analysis doesn't apply if a player simply has skills. They also, sometimes (most of the time) want to make a statement about their character being underrated.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I do this. Mostly because the majority of top tiers just aren't for me, but also because I want to be unique. It is a real phenomenon, and it's the reason why low tier mains exist. They want to prove that lists and analysis doesn't apply if a player simply has skills. They also, sometimes (most of the time) want to make a statement about their character being underrated.

Same here! Personally, I love playing and because I love them as characters more than anyone else, and I love their playstyles so much too! I have accepted that I will never be able to win my locals and I am fine with that. I don't want to be that generic Shiek/Cloud/Bayonetta player that gets around top 10 in their locals, when I can be that guy (in)famous for Dededecides and Zard U-throws on the Duck Hunt tree! Also I just don't feel connected to most of the top tiers:
Never played her games, don't care
Never played his games, don't care
Ok, I actually loved SMG, but she is too light for me, and is fun in friendlies but I don't like her competitive playstyle
Never played her games, don't care
love pokemon, but screw pikachu.
enjoyed some of his games, but never liked Sonic. I only liked Knuckles, and sometimes Tails and Eggman.
never played her games, don't care
never played his games, don't care
Eh you get the point by now, but then. . .
Absolutely love kirby games, love his personality, love his playstyle, love everything. He is perfect after all.
You never forget your first pokémon. Also absolutely love his playstyle, and he just keeps getting buffed!

I love playing low tiers. I accept that I can't beat the best with them, and I am happy with that. I don't want to play for money or a record, I play for the experience, and for the fame!

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Honestly, you shouldn't care who you win with. Although, be prepared for prejudice when picking a Top Tier.

 

[ThatRandomGuy42]

I don't play high tiers for the same reason as a lot of people;
I can't play them.
A lot of them require effort or some degree of learning to use them effectively, but I've been playing Robin more-or-less since the start and I've become accustomed to that play-style. The others don't work for me at all, even if I wanted to play them.

The only characters I won't play out of principle are Rosalina and Lucario, because I honestly think both have a crutch - Luma and Aura respectively.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Lol, now I'm a main. And I'm really good, almost as good if not better already than my pre-1.1.5 . Playing low tiers can also be about having that one character that may not have the best matchups, but you're personally insane with. People at my local play Shulk, Robin, and ROB like Bayonetta, Rosalina, and Cloud are elsewhere.

 

[Dre89]

Bayonetta is stupidly broken but no one should be criticising someone else for playing her. Choosing to not handicap yourself in a competitive context, especially when there's money on the line, is perfectly fine.

The mentality of 'I lost because I played a low tier' is such a poor mentality. 99% of players do not play at a level where character choice is more critical than skill level. People like that halt their development as players because they deflect blame for losing onto their character, rather than thinking about what they could have done better.

 

[Lady Kuki]

I don't enjoy playing as high or top tiers. It's not because they're too good or unfair. I don't enjoy playing as them because I have no interest in or connection to them as a character. In this game, the only high tiers I like are Cloud, Ness and Villager, mostly Cloud and Villager. While I do like Ness (since I'm a Mother fan and all), I feel like that moves such as his backthrow are a tad too over centralized in his moveset. It's such an important move in his moveset since it's the one that is the safest and can kill the earliest. I dunno. I could be totally wrong in all of this, but I just don't find much thrill in using Ness in Smash 4 for some reason. I only really like him because I have some sort of a connection to him.

I like to play characters that I like, regardless of tier. I don't care much about money in tournaments; I just want to have fun with my favorite character. If my favorite character happens to be top or high, that's just the icing on the cake for me. =P

Edit: To reaaally answer your question, I don't think badly of anyone who is playing high tiers to win, nor do I think badly of anyone who doesn't want to use high tier characters for whatever reason. Everyone has different ways of doing things; if your brother wants to win with Shulk and not Bayo, then that is his decision and I respect it.

 

[AuraWielder]

If he doesn't want to use Bayonetta, it's his call.
As for me, my mains jump all over the place in tiers.
Ness is high, Peach is mid, and Roy/Falco/Lucas/Shulk are low-ish. And Jigglypuff... well, yikes.
Some of my 'mains' here are characters I just play for fun (Shulk, Roy, Jigglypuff) and would never use in an actual tournament.
When it comes to actual tournaments, I tend to use my Ness and Peach (although I'm trying to work my Lucas into a tournament level one). Not necessarily because they have higher tier positions, but because I work best with them. I've always acknowledged Ness and Peach as 'good' characters in this installment, but I don't get much hate with them because I don't have a top tier (Bayonetta, Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS). Heck, I've tried to pick up a few top tier characters. But I legit just can't play them.
He should be free to play whatever he wants. Whether that be Bayonetta or Shulk, it's up to him.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

If he doesn't want to use Bayonetta, it's his call.
As for me, my mains jump all over the place in tiers.
Ness is high, Peach is mid, and Roy/Falco/Lucas/Shulk are low-ish. And Jigglypuff... well, yikes.
Some of my 'mains' here are characters I just play for fun (Shulk, Roy, Jigglypuff) and would never use in an actual tournament.
When it comes to actual tournaments, I tend to use my Ness and Peach (although I'm trying to work my Lucas into a tournament level one). Not necessarily because they have higher tier positions, but because I work best with them. I've always acknowledged Ness and Peach as 'good' characters in this installment, but I don't get much hate with them because I don't have a top tier (Bayonetta, Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS). Heck, I've tried to pick up a few top tier characters. But I legit just can't play them.
He should be free to play whatever he wants. Whether that be Bayonetta or Shulk, it's up to him.

SEVEN MAINS!?

 

[ZafKiel]

Of course, top tiers have their advantages over the cast. I even picked up Sheik because I wanted to start winning and wanted to improve as a player. In the end, it's up to the player. I actually find it admirable of a player who wants to stick with their low tier character and push it to its limits.

Playing a low tier character just means that there are going to be people who don't know the match up. Plus it makes you look like a better player if you won with a low tier.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Of course, top tiers have their advantages over the cast. I even picked up Sheik because I wanted to start winning and wanted to improve as a player. In the end, it's up to the player. I actually find it admirable of a player who wants to stick with their low tier character and push it to its limits.

Playing a low tier character just means that there are going to be people who don't know the match up. Plus it makes you look like a better player if you won with a low tier.

This is very true. I said be prepared for prejudice if you pick a top tier, but a bottom tier earns you respect, especially if you win. I main and and , and sometimes I get a feeling of respect from other players online when I win with Zelda and Dedede. And matchups are often good for me because very little people know how to deal with them (Except for the Marios that know Dedede is combo food, but it makes them very predictable.). Even, some people just try to run past his projectiles, which simply do not work against the wall a Tink main can create. The highest tiered character I ever tried to main was Rosalina and Luma, and I loved them a bunch, but decided it wasn't worth being called "TIER WH***!" or "F***BOY" . Ah smash community, how horrible you can be sometimes.

 

[SirSquire]

As a Shulk main, I would say that the character you choose should be out of love for the game and not out of winning. I have heard people tell me to switch characters for a long time, but I find Shulk the most fun and because I find him fun I can improve. Many people take teirs as a head on situation, and dont account for the tools some characters have and the aspect of not knowing the matchup. Ultimately not playing top teirs out of principle is wrong, I have friends who find playing top teir fun and if you have fun with the game, then you will improve.

 

[Lady Kuki]

This is very true. I said be prepared for prejudice if you pick a top tier, but a bottom tier earns you respect, especially if you win. I main and and , and sometimes I get a feeling of respect from other players online when I win with Zelda and Dedede. And matchups are often good for me because very little people know how to deal with them (Except for the Marios that know Dedede is combo food, but it makes them very predictable.). Even, some people just try to run past his projectiles, which simply do not work against the wall a Tink main can create. The highest tiered character I ever tried to main was Rosalina and Luma, and I loved them a bunch, but decided it wasn't worth being called "TIER WH***!" or "F***BOY" . Ah smash community, how horrible you can be sometimes.

Bottom tier mains don't always get respect, you know. I feel like low/bottom tier mains may have it bad too.

I think low/bottom tier mains have it bad, because every now and then, you'll get people asking why you're using a "crappy" character. People would wonder why the heck you aren't using a high, top, or just a better character in general, and it can be a bit discouraging sometimes.

I would know this situation quite well, I believe. I main Roy, a character commonly considered low or even bottom now. I've had one guy ask me why I'm not using Marth. To be fair, he wasn't being mean spirited about it, so I wasn't too annoyed over such a suggestion. The reason why I don't main Marth is quite simple really: In Smash 4, I don't really like how Marth plays. Why? I don't know. I just don't. :T

Really, both top/high and low/bottom tier mains get it bad, especially if you main a more controversial character. The trick is to simply not care and just play who you like. The detractors judging you by your character choices would probably just judge you over something else if they could not judge you over your character choice. If you really like and believe in your character, you may be able to go to places where you wouldn't even imagine, especially in a balanced game like this one. I mean, this game is at least balanced in the sense that there are little to no exploits that give certain characters big advantages, at least none that I know of.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Bottom tier mains don't always get respect, you know. I feel like low/bottom tier mains may have it bad too.

I think low/bottom tier mains have it bad, because every now and then, you'll get people asking why you're using a "crappy" character. People would wonder why the heck you aren't using a high, top, or just a better character in general, and it can be a bit discouraging sometimes.

I would know this situation quite well, I believe. I main Roy, a character commonly considered low or even bottom now. I've had one guy ask me why I'm not using Marth. To be fair, he wasn't being mean spirited about it, so I wasn't too annoyed over such a suggestion. The reason why I don't main Marth is quite simple really: In Smash 4, I don't really like how Marth plays. Why? I don't know. I just don't. :T

Really, both top/high and low/bottom tier mains get it bad, especially if you main a more controversial character. The trick is to simply not care and just play who you like. The detractors judging you by your character choices would probably just judge you over something else if they could not judge you over your character choice. If you really like and believe in your character, you may be able to go to places where you wouldn't even imagine, especially in a balanced game like this one. I mean, this game is at least balanced in the sense that there are little to no exploits that give certain characters big advantages, at least none that I know of.

Roy is better than Marth... If we are talking about controversial characters, note how the majority are top tier (Sonic, Bayonetta, RosaLuma, Mario, albeit only for the up-tilt "combo") and there is very little controversy surrounding bottom tiers (I can think of Mii Fighters because Customs, Dedede getting hate for being a Super Heavyweight with an actually good recovery and Little Mac for Super Armor smash attacks.) Honestly, main a character that flows well with your playstyle. I main Toon Link for the "Wall of projectiles" Zelda for the defensive play and satisfying Sweetspots and Dedede for a character that can dish out lots and take more. And yes, 1.1.5 Smash 4 is extremely balanced. Arguably more balanced than Smash 64.

 

[Lady Kuki]

Roy is better than Marth... If we are talking about controversial characters, note how the majority are top tier (Sonic, Bayonetta, RosaLuma, Mario, albeit only for the up-tilt "combo") and there is very little controversy surrounding bottom tiers (I can think of Mii Fighters because Customs, Dedede getting hate for being a Super Heavyweight with an actually good recovery and Little Mac for Super Armor smash attacks.) Honestly, main a character that flows well with your playstyle. I main Toon Link for the "Wall of projectiles" Zelda for the defensive play and satisfying Sweetspots and Dedede for a character that can dish out lots and take more. And yes, 1.1.5 Smash 4 is extremely balanced. Arguably more balanced than Smash 64.

For the sake of avoiding another "is Roy better than Marth?" argument, I will simply tell you this: Roy is generally considered to be a low/bottom tier and a worse Marth, since patch 1.1.4. Whether or not Roy being low is actually true is not the point I'm trying to make. I'm saying that using a low tier will also give you flak. This is especially the case if you main a controversial low tier character, which do exist by the way. Are low tiers as controversial as top tiers? No, not really, but prejudice behind these characters definitely do exist. We have to constantly deal with people crapping on and saying nothing but negative things about our characters. I actually wouldn't mind being made fun of for using a top tier character, because honestly the only real reason why someone would complain about you using a top tier is because they're salty. Bayo I think as of now, is the only top tier though where the salt is somewhat justified; she may be beatable, but her tools are slightly out of whack I think.

It doesn't matter what tier your character is. Play them because you have fun with them and because you win with them. If people don't like your character choice, then that's their fault, not yours.

 

[Dre89]

Getting results with a top tier is more respectable than not getting results sticking with a low tier.

 

[Megamang]

If someone says 'Roy is a worse Marth' start ignoring the rest of their opinion.

If they say 'Roy is worse than Marth' then you can listen.

 

[Aquatics]

its someones choice in who they want to play. As for me i co-main luigi and mario because of luigis bad MU's. It all comes down to who you enjoy in the game even if they're top tier or bottom 5. Granted there are people who pick top tiers because it can raise their chances of winning and thats okay because this game is competitive.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Getting results with a top tier is more respectable than not getting results sticking with a low tier.

I don't think either one is more respectable than the other as long as they are doing what they want to. If they choose to play with a top tier to win, I respect them for trying their hardest to win. If they choose to play a low tier because they think playing a top tier is selling out, I respect them for not betraying their own principles. If they choose to play their favorite character regardless of tier because they really like the character, I respect them for staying loyal.

The only exception is Bayonetta players. I don't respect Bayonetta players. :^)

 

[Lime Cultivist]

Play whatever character is the most fun and enjoyable. If that's a low tier than that's fine, but the reason I usually pick high tiers is because they are the most fun. It's not enjoyable to me playing a bad character, constantly getting beaten up and having very few options at any time, when high tiers are fast and flexible in most situations. I have a couple limitations for myself because I just don't like them, I would never main: brawl meta knight, smash 4 bayonetta, or any version of ice climbers.
That's just my reasoning, it's all up to personal choice in the end. It's cool when people are loyal to a character, staying with them through each smash, or if they really love the character because of the series they came from.

 

[Nysyr]

Play whatever you want until you start to feel that you are being held back by your main. Just keep in mind that it is also your fault if you don't pick up a pocket for your bad matchups that no amount of fundamentals will save you from.

 

[Epok]

I guess an interesting question to ask(if it hasn't been asked already); If everyone played the top 5 characters, would the game still be exciting, or stale and boring?