Reflector/Absorber/Pocket Strategies

[Fancykong]

An offshoot of the matchups thread, but I just wanted to see how other WFTs approached the issue of facing spacies, Villager, Rosalina, Palutena, Ness, etc. specifically from a PROJECTILE standpoint.

For example, against Ness/spacies/Palutena, I can usually charge a SS, use a cancelled header as a feint then dash attack, followed by a point-blank SS during their hitstun or to punish a bad roll.

However, Villager can still pocket a cancelled Header ball.

What are some of your projectile strategies/experiences?

 

[Meek Moths]

fully charge up sun, use ball scarcely, use the sun when you know they cant punish it (requires reads

 

[Fancykong]

fully charge up sun, use ball scarcely, use the sun when you know they cant punish it (requires reads

It's funny that we think the opposite (besides reads).

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

It's funny that we think the opposite (besides reads).

I've played against people who play header heavy and lightly on the SS and I do the opposite. It's seems to be a question of match up honestly, mixing up both play styles can be a huge asset but both can possibly be gotten away with on their own.

 

[Meek Moths]

It's funny that we think the opposite (besides reads).

im not huge fan of ball spam, i mean its sure good to force approach but wii fit has quick moves so its easy for her to deal with enemy when shes up close, so i only throw it few times per match

 

[⑨ball]

Rosalina is the only character that has cool down light enough to use her reflect esque move on reaction. The rest have to make a gamble and it's often not worth the damage WFT can get as a bait punish. Even villager who can pocket super late and be fine needs to respect the fact that we don't have to fire immediately.

In general it's always best to use SS as your zoning/poking tool until kill percents start coming up and then nailing them when they are vulnerable. As such the risk reward will never be worth it. If you absolutely need to fully charge and take that gamble against these types of characters, do it from a distance you can avoid retaliation. For Villager in particular this is when you want to start spamming header as it will funnel the force of any hitbox to something manageable if it hits you at all.

 

[Fancykong]

This is great. Quite a few different playstyles from just one character, and they're all strategically valid.. That's cool!

I'm just surprised that a few of you discount the header ball possibilities. I've started to incorporate some of the multiple angle skills from the Header guide and it's helped out immensely.

For example, sometimes I just drop the ball. It helps as a feint. Or, against Falco/Palutena, I can hit the ball with down tilt instead. The ball arcs over their reflectors and forces a response from them, usually a shield or back roll. I also sometimes bop the ball with my jab combo which gives me two hitboxes and extra damage. And other times, I mix it up and just smack them offstage , and then use header as a sniping tool to force them to waste their air dodge so I have a free spike opportunity. You can also bop it with one jab, which makes the ball advance so slowly that you can outrun it and use a dash attack/tilt/grab on the enemy. The minigames!

That being said, I play conservatively against Rosalina/Villager. No flash, just reverse jabs/ftilts to separate Luma at first, and SS as a wake up attack if I can't physically get there in time.

 

[KiteSC]

I feel that WFT is fast enough and have a really good running attack to take care of situations like this. As long as you use your projectiles in very choice situations or just for edge guarding, it shouldnt be a big problem against characters with reflector/absorber.

Also, using projectiles in the air is a really good way to cover yourself. Even if it is successfully reflected, it no longer aims at you. And you can take that time to run up and get under them.

 

[Fancykong]

I feel that WFT is fast enough and have a really good running attack to take care of situations like this. As long as you use your projectiles in very choice situations or just for edge guarding, it shouldnt be a big problem against characters with reflector/absorber.

Also, using projectiles in the air is a really good way to cover yourself. Even if it is successfully reflected, it no longer aims at you. And you can take that time to run up and get under them.

I usually try this first. And in a perfect world, that would work. However, I'm finding more and more players that are perfecting their keep-away strategies, so I
end up having to mix things up.

I agree with you completely, though.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Only characters who annoy me are Mario and Villager when it comes to reflecting/pocket.

 

[Cenizas]

Just as an FYI, Villager can steal the soccer ball and keep you from using it like Diddy's banana's or R.O.B.'s gyros. This could be advantageous for you though as you can cleanly land a spike now that the ball is out of the way.

 

[Fancykong]

It feels good to spike Villager in general.

 

[⑨ball]

Just as an FYI, Villager can steal the soccer ball and keep you from using it like Diddy's banana's or R.O.B.'s gyros. This could be advantageous for you though as you can cleanly land a spike now that the ball is out of the way.

Speaking on this before we get to the discussion in the MU thread-- be sure that if villager pockets one of your projectiles, you spam the other. WFT's projectiles works so well in tandem that if Villager steals one the other will cancel it out and in the case of Soccer ball stealing, the momentum is the only thing canceled and it will send it back at him no matter the charge of SS you use.

Going for the spike also works really well if you just SH header before going for it as it travels all the way to the blastzone giving you plenty of time to use the header spike before it regenerates. Or just turn around as the hitbox on the back of her head spikes too.

 

[Cenizas]

Have fun doing that when customs become widespread. Exploding Balloon Trip will make gimping us nigh impossible.

 

[⑨ball]

Have fun doing that when customs become widespread. Exploding Balloon Trip will make gimping us nigh impossible.

I look forward to the challenge. (:<
Villager v WFT is one of the funnest MUs I've played to date. Offstage battles for days.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Extreme Balloons are godlike and if you're not using them then you aren't playing Villager right. Literally no reason to use standard or (goodness forbid) High Jump over Extreme

Anyway I'm not gonna make this a customs discussion thread, but seeing as I main Villager and Space Elsa AND Fitness Ghost I'll add my input anyway

For Villager you want to bait out Pocket with Header. To be honest a pocketed header ball is pretty much useless, and what Villager really wants is a Sun Salutation. Once they've pocketed the header ball they're probably gonna want to discard it right away to free up the inventory. But in the meantime you've safeguarded yourself and your Sun Salutation against Pocket shenanigans.

Rosalina's Gravitational Pull has deceptively large range and long duration, so you're generally not going to want to launch Sun Salutation soon after pulling out a header. If you do, GP will likely suck in both the ball and the SS, so yeah. If you do bait out GP, wait until the pulling hitbox is gone. You might want to do a few test runs with headers and uncharged SS throughout the match to get a feel for Pull's duration and range. Also, Luma can be used to absorb SS, and if it has full HP it won't get KOd by it. Use header to chip its health down. All in all nailing Rosalina with SS is a bit trickier.

 

[⑨ball]

Indeed. Extreme Balloons are liken to dieties. Villagers ledge play gets maddeningly better with them and putting a hitbox on Villager's already SSS tier recovery just makes it even better. I'm really looking forward to seeing more Villagers when customs drop. Not to mention trip plant? Fantastic.

Space Elsa is the greatest nick name I've ever heard for her and I refuse to refer to her by anything else from now on.

Villager with pocketed SS is the scariest thing ever. You really don't want the threat of a huge projectile bearing down on you while dealing with his offstage game or onstage traps. I don't even chance using a fully charged one unless Villagers already stuck in an animation that has a decent amount of recovery. Pocket is just too good to challenge otherwise. The range on this move is phenomenal.

The only projectile that's worth firing honestly at Space Elsa barring customs, are trick shot headers. Thanks to the way GP and header function when it gets pulled the death timer will be extended letting you continue your assault as if you were going for a dash header or ftilt header anyway. Customs change a lot as weighted header stays active long enough that it's a threat whether you miss or not, with GP putting it in perfect position to hit again with something like an Uncharged SS. Also does fantastic damage to Luma, and shields with great recovery time and complete spammability.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

I actually don't use projectiles at all cause it's too risky. WFT doesn't fire SS that fast meaning you will most likely get hit on the return unless you're a certain distance away.. most likely you won't be though.

Also Villager scares me. He can actually kill us pretty early with our SS and he has other means of dealing with our projectiles

 

[elegyempty]

For reflectors, header is almost always a safe poke, and is a great feint at mid-range.

For Rosalina....eh. SS does substantial damage so you can use it on Luma but good luck hitting Rosaline with anything. (On the bright side, fair is one of the few attacks that can actually challenge Rosalina from below, so we've got that going for us)

For Villager, don't use header. Like, ever. It's easy to pocket and so fast that it's nearly free damage. Weak SS doesn't have grave implications if it gets pocketed but Lloid will eat it for breakfast. Strong SS can be used on a read, maybe if you bait out pocket with a header feint.

as far as customs are concerned:
- Enriched SS is interesting because strong ESS becomes more viable vs Reflectors, since you can throw it out at range and duck if it comes back. You probably wouldn't be able to throw out weak ESS as much as default weak SS, though.
- Sweeping SS is probably the most dangerous to throw into a reflector by virtue of the fact that it gives those characters an easy set-up if it gets bounced. It's arguably the best option against Rosalina, though.
- I haven't really tested Weighted Header enough so I don't know if it's fast enough to get bounced into you or how it works in conjunction with pocket.

 

[jonniursa]

Usually I'd rather villager pocket the ball because I know the arc it goes in and it's easier to deal with then I can use sun salutation normally ...with others the feint is your best friend or using header jumping hits depending on where you are spaced unless it's palutena or fox but you still won't get hit