Redesigning Ike (but keeping him the same)

[Jotari]

Other redesigns

https://smashboards.com/threads/redesinging-ganondorf-but-keeping-him-the-same.513191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/new-melee-moves-for-samus.515562/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-link-but-keeping-him-the-same.518191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redeisgning-kirby-but-keeping-him-the-same.521634/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-zelda-but-keeping-her-the-same.521781/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-ike-but-keeping-him-the-same.522334/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-the-belmonts-but-keeping-them-the-same.523936/

I'm a big Fire Emblem fan and there's two things noticably missing from Ike's moveset in Smash. 1. His long range sword beam like attack. 2. His ability to use axes, specifically his father's axe, Urvan. Other than that, Ike in Smash Bros. is pretty great. Many of his attacks are taken from obscure animations in his games and he has a niche in the Smash roster as the heavy sword fighter. So this will be a pretty short redesign compared to some of my previous ones.

First thing up, his Smash attacks. I'm giving him the Ganondorf treatment and replacing his smash attacks with Urvan.

The attacks are otherwise unchanged. They're already some of the strongest smash attacks in the game and already fit the weight and heft of an axe attack.

Now, for his long range sword beam attack

(this is really the best picture I could find, people don't seem to screen shot Game Cube/Wii Fire Embelm much)
The obvious thing seems to be to replace his neutral special, as Eruption isn't like anything he does in game and probably only got put onto his moveset as compensation for Roy being removed in Brawl. But, I actually like Eruption, especially with it's ranged full charge version. But it isn't quite like the wave beam he uses in his own game. So I've implemented it by replacing his Down Special. Counter is now named Distant Counter (a skill from Fire Embelm Heroes and Three Houses). Functionally the attack is still the same. Ike takes a pose and then counters the enemy's attack. With the same multiplier and frame data as before. Only, now, instead of just slashing his sword, Ike unleashes a long range energy attack forward as he strikes. For someone hitting Ike at melee range, this will largely make no difference, Ike will hit them with his sword dealing about the same as his current counter. The beam attack as the better advantage of countering enemies with very disjointed hitboxes, like Sephiroth, and also, in games with more than two players, the increased potential to hit multiple enemies with his counter.

So, that's Ike with his father's axe and with his sword beam attack. But I'm not done yet. There is just one more thing I'd like to change. And it would be the biggest change functionally, and that would be his throws. Or at least some of his throws. I would like to give him the hand axe.

The hand axe is a recurring weapon in the Fire Emblem series, and a pretty iconic one at that, being the primary ranged weapon of axe users. So if we're going to have elements of a Fire Emblem axe user in Ike in Smash, then I'd like for him to also use the hand axe in some way. Ike's current throws are pretty short ranged and seem to be designed as combo starters, and that aspect isn't lost, he just throws his enemies further now and tosses a hand axe at them that returns to him, hitting the enemy twice and keeping them stun locked for a moment so Ike can run up and hit them. His throws are still combo starts, but now Ike has a bit more space and time to initiate his combo with ore freedom.

The exception to this is the down throw, since down throws necessitate tossing the enemy into the ground and a hand axe wouldn't make much sense, so for his new down throw, Ike uses the hammer.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/2/2a/FE10_Hammer.jpg

This is a weapon (also classified as an axe in Fire Emblem) that had some meme association with Ike, due to one boss he could cheese with it, that got a proper association with him in Engage. His motion of slamming the enemy into the ground for his current down throw also feels like it would fit well with the hammer (which would be a bit smaller than in the linked picture). This attack will also have a special property to reflect it's mechancis in Fire Emblem. It reverses the weight value of the enemy it's used on. That means it deals higher knockback to heavy enemies and lower knockback to lighter enemies. For someone like Bowser or King K Rool it's a veritable kill throw, but for someone like Jigglypuff or Mr Game & Watch it's a combo starter.

And that's my Ike redesign. In brief, his smashes and throws now use various axes from his games while his counter uses the long range beam attack. Tell me what you think, what you like, what you don't like and if you have any ideas for Ike yourself.

 

[LeshenLord]

I like your post; I've thought about changing Ike, too.

The obvious thing seems to be to replace his neutral special, as Eruption isn't like anything he does in game and probably only got put onto his moveset as compensation for Roy being removed in Brawl. But, I actually like Eruption, especially with it's ranged full charge version. But it isn't quite like the wave beam he uses in his own game. So I've implemented it by replacing his Down Special. Counter is now named Distant Counter (a skill from Fire Embelm Heroes and Three Houses). Functionally the attack is still the same. Ike takes a pose and then counters the enemy's attack. With the same multiplier and frame data as before. Only, now, instead of just slashing his sword, Ike unleashes a long range energy attack forward as he strikes. For someone hitting Ike at melee range, this will largely make no difference, Ike will hit them with his sword dealing about the same as his current counter. The beam attack as the better advantage of countering enemies with very disjointed hitboxes, like Sephiroth, and also, in games with more than two players, the increased potential to hit multiple enemies with his counter.

I absolutely love Eruption as well. It's probably my favorite move to land in the game! That being said, I'd still keep down special as the Counter he has now. The pair of the multiplier and frame data actually suck, so I'd either make the startup the same as Marth/Lucina, or increase the multiplier to 1.35x.

I would instead replace his down smash with Eruption, so that the beam attack can be the neutral special and Counter is kept basically as-is. The beam attack not being tied to a Counter activation gives Ike a new movement option (which he could really use) since he can now B-reverse, wavebounce, etc. if he has a normal projectile as his neutral special.

I imagine the beam attack would be functionally similar to Cloud's own Blade Beam, but perhaps faster and slightly more damaging to compensate for the fact that it's not "upgradable" like Cloud's (i.e. limit break). This move would assist Ike's gameplan since he has more ways of conditioning opponents to jump, which he can intercept with an aerial, much like Wolf does with his blaster.

Ike's current throws are pretty short ranged and seem to be designed as combo starters, and that aspect isn't lost, he just throws his enemies further now and tosses a hand axe at them that returns to him, hitting the enemy twice and keeping them stun locked for a moment so Ike can run up and hit them. His throws are still combo starts, but now Ike has a bit more space and time to initiate his combo with ore freedom.

Most of them are not combo throws, really. Mostly just for positioning. Down throw is the main exception, as it does combo at early to mid percents. Up throw might combo at very specific mid or high-ish percents, but that's about it. Forward and back throw do nothing for combos at any percent.

I could see forward and back throw being like Falco/Fox's throws where they throw the opponent, and then shoot them with their lasers. In this case it would be Ike throwing the opponent and throwing an axe at them right after. But I like the look and feel of his up and down throws too much to want them changed lol.

The exception to this is the down throw, since down throws necessitate tossing the enemy into the ground and a hand axe wouldn't make much sense, so for his new down throw, Ike uses the hammer.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/2/2a/FE10_Hammer.jpg This is a weapon (also classified as an axe in Fire Emblem) that had some meme association with Ike, due to one boss he could cheese with it, that got a proper association with him in Engage. His motion of slamming the enemy into the ground for his current down throw also feels like it would fit well with the hammer (which would be a bit smaller than in the linked picture). This attack will also have a special property to reflect it's mechancis in Fire Emblem. It reverses the weight value of the enemy it's used on. That means it deals higher knockback to heavy enemies and lower knockback to lighter enemies. For someone like Bowser or King K Rool it's a veritable kill throw, but for someone like Jigglypuff or Mr Game & Watch it's a combo starter.

That's a really interesting idea, and one that might make heavies even worse than they already are lol. It could also help Ike it some tough matchups against lighter characters, like Pikachu.

Other than that, the only changes I'd make to Ike are general buffs to specific moves, since a some of them are underwhelming, but that's kind of outside the scope of "redesign."

 

[Jotari]

I like your post; I've thought about changing Ike, too.



I absolutely love Eruption as well. It's probably my favorite move to land in the game! That being said, I'd still keep down special as the Counter he has now. The pair of the multiplier and frame data actually suck, so I'd either make the startup the same as Marth/Lucina, or increase the multiplier to 1.35x.

In case I was unclear, his Counter is still there with the same properties. The beam version of it is just an addition to the counter, not a replacement.

I would instead replace his down smash with Eruption, so that the beam attack can be the neutral special and Counter is kept basically as-is. The beam attack not being tied to a Counter activation gives Ike a new movement option (which he could really use) since he can now B-reverse, wavebounce, etc. if he has a normal projectile as his neutral special.

Down Smash Eruption is certainly a choice. Not one I'd necessary be against, but I think it's be a pretty extreme change and a pretty extreme Smash attack. He'd lose the ability to charge it in the air, but would no doubt benefit from having, essentially, a fifth special.

I imagine the beam attack would be functionally similar to Cloud's own Blade Beam, but perhaps faster and slightly more damaging to compensate for the fact that it's not "upgradable" like Cloud's (i.e. limit break). This move would assist Ike's gameplan since he has more ways of conditioning opponents to jump, which he can intercept with an aerial, much like Wolf does with his blaster.

For stuff like that my fix all patch for the game is "Proper custom specials". I kind of love and hate Smash 4 for giving us custom specials as an idea but flubbing then so hard that no one wants to try them again.

Most of them are not combo throws, really. Mostly just for positioning. Down throw is the main exception, as it does combo at early to mid percents. Up throw might combo at very specific mid or high-ish percents, but that's about it. Forward and back throw do nothing for combos at any percent.

I could see forward and back throw being like Falco/Fox's throws where they throw the opponent, and then shoot them with their lasers. In this case it would be Ike throwing the opponent and throwing an axe at them right after. But I like the look and feel of his up and down throws too much to want them changed lol.

I've had some success chaining back throw into a dash attack, thout it's less a combo starter and more just an extra hit, which my hand axe idea already is. Ike isn't much of a multi combo character outside of spamming neutral air.

That's a really interesting idea, and one that might make heavies even worse than they already are lol. It could also help Ike it some tough matchups against lighter characters, like Pikachu.

Honestly it would probably be a worse change overall, as it'd make the knockback much more variant and hard to predict for a follow up, but I thought it cool and weird and worth throwing in.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I find this Ike redesign interesting. Replacing his Smash Attacks with Urvan is a great idea. As for his blade beam, one idea I thought of was to implement it as a slow-moving but powerful Down B projectile that Ike could charge up, but your idea of making it an extension of Counter is also pretty neat.

One change I think would benefit Ike is giving Quick Draw frames of projectile invulnerability. Increasing the hitbox on the spinning portion of Aether would also help I think.

 

[Jotari]

I find this Ike redesign interesting. Replacing his Smash Attacks with Urvan is a great idea.

It's a surprisingly simple idea that works really well, I think. For years I had trouble thinking of ways to implement Urvan, even as a special, since Ragnell already hits with axe like power. I thought of making it just a basic attack like Byleth's special or making it a weapon with durability, but ultimately it would come down to "this isn't doing anything he can't already do with his normals". So simply putting it on some of his normals achieves that. And even visually his smashes already look like he's using an axe, especially his forward smash. It's one of the choices I thought I'd get some push back on as some people don't really like the idea of characters pulling out another weapon from hammerspace (despite Ness and Link having done that since the first game).

One change I think would benefit Ike is giving Quick Draw frames of projectile invulnerability. Increasing the hitbox on the spinning portion of Aether would also help I think.

In terms of general properties, which j don't like to get into too much, I'd like his forward aerial to have more power. From what I recall, that attack used to hit like a truck but doesn't have the same satisfying punch nowadays.