Recovery Report Card

[Tom Bombadil]

I'm making a short video on basic recovery options with each of the characters. I was thinking of giving each character a loose rating based on the main attributes of recovery which, as I see them, are,
- Distance
- Safety
- Options

I decided to do it report card style and assign letter grades to each attribute as well as an overall grade. For those not in the US, the grades are (from best to worst): A, B, C, D, F with an option + or -

Here's my first draft of a list. I'd love comments and suggestions
Falcon :
- Distance : D
- Safety : C
- Options : F
- Overall : D

DK
- Distance : B
- Safety : B
- Options : D
- Overall : C

Samus
- Distance : B
- Safety : A
- Options : A
- Overall : A

Kirby
- Distance : A
- Safety : C
- Options : A
- Overall : B+

Jigglypuff
- Distance : A+
- Safety : C
- Options : B
- Overall : B+

Luigi
- Distance : A
- Safety : D
- Options : A+
- Overall : B

Mario
- Distance : A
- Safety : A
- Options : A+
- Overall : A

Pikachu
- Distance : A+
- Safety : C
- Options : A+
- Overall : A+

Ness
- Distance : A
- Safety : F-
- Options : C
- Overall : F

Fox
- Distance : D
- Safety : F
- Options : B
- Overall : D+

Yoshi
- Distance : B
- Safety : A+
- Options : A
- Overall : A

Link
- Distance : F
- Safety : C
- Options : F
- Overall : F


That makes the final order (sorted by overall grade):
Best








Worst


Proposed changes:
Fox
- Distance : B (up from D)
- Safety : D (up from F)
- Options : B
- Overall : C (up from D+)
suggestion by Shears but these changes are not the exact ones he proposed


Kirby
- Distance : A
- Safety : B (up from C)
- Options : A
- Overall : A (up from B+)
Jigglypuff
- Distance : A+
- Safety : B (up from C)
- Options : B
- Overall : A (up from B+)
in accordance with Star King's reasoning

Link
- Distance : F
- Safety : D (down from C)
- Options : C (up from F)
- Overall : F
reasoning from Grahamaglam showed me that I had underestimated Link's projectiles during recovery and also attributed points incorrectly

 

[The Star King]

I disagree with Samus/Mario being above Puff/Kirby

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I disagree with Samus/Mario being above Puff/Kirby

I pretty much just averaged out the attribute scores. Which of those did you disagree with?

 

[Grahamaglam]

How did you determine how safe a recovery is?

 

[Shears]

I'd say Fox has more options than B. Directionally he can go in a lot of different way, but he has the best fall special in the game and that allows him after upb to have so many options weaving and maneuvering. A lot of people don't realize how good foxs recovery is after he has started moving. Safety certainly low because of the startup to his upb, but his options are really good. LD is one of the best at this and has avoided edgeguards from Kero and everyone he plays because of the options fox has after upb has started. He has a huge second jump too so if the scope of this is strictly upb and not upb+jump then fox distance should be B and his options should be A while his safety sits low like a D. I think he has a safer recovery than Luigi and a little worse than Falcon. Just because either you (figurative to anyone reading this) or no one you know has the capacity to take advantage of all of foxs recovery options doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Hes certainly not safe to recover with but if not being edgeguarded he has tons of options and if I'm interpreting the categories right distance is raw distance, options are in which angles and positions they can go to recover, and safety is how much of a threat can they pose on a possible edgeguarder.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi is definitely A+, no qualms about it. The super armour, distance, egg throw, need I say more?

 

[Shears]

Yoshi is definitely A+, no qualms about it. The super armour, distance, egg throw, need I say more?

Yes, please, say more.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Yoshi is definitely A+, no qualms about it. The super armour, distance, egg throw, need I say more?

You didn't even explain your opinion. You just listed things.

Link should be at least B no doubt. Boomerang, bombs, spin attack, edge cancels. Aught I say more?

 

[Shears]

You didn't even explain your opinion. You just listed things.

Link should be at least B no doubt. Boomerang, bombs, spin attack, edge cancels. Aught I say more?

Yes you aught.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

How did you determine how safe a recovery is?

First off, there's no way to "determine" anything, it's all just opinions (I guess distance isn't). I'm thinking of safety as how safe you are while offstage. It's the difference between Luigi and Mario and the reason Ness is so bad. I like what Shears said: "threat you can pose to an edgeguarder". It's really easy for Mario to turn around a Falcon trying to edgeguard him, far less easy for Luigi, for example.

Yoshi is definitely A+, no qualms about it. The super armour, distance, egg throw, need I say more?

If Yoshi is A+ that means his recovery is just as good as Pikachu's. Doesn't seem right to me. His distance is good but it's nothing compared to Jigglypuff or Pikachu. He got an A overall, is that not enough?

I'd say Fox has more options than B. Directionally he can go in a lot of different way, but he has the best fall special in the game and that allows him after upb to have so many options weaving and maneuvering. A lot of people don't realize how good foxs recovery is after he has started moving. Safety certainly low because of the startup to his upb, but his options are really good. LD is one of the best at this and has avoided edgeguards from Kero and everyone he plays because of the options fox has after upb has started. He has a huge second jump too so if the scope of this is strictly upb and not upb+jump then fox distance should be B and his options should be A while his safety sits low like a D. I think he has a safer recovery than Luigi and a little worse than Falcon. Just because either you (figurative to anyone reading this) or no one you know has the capacity to take advantage of all of foxs recovery options doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Hes certainly not safe to recover with but if not being edgeguarded he has tons of options and if I'm interpreting the categories right distance is raw distance, options are in which angles and positions they can go to recover, and safety is how much of a threat can they pose on a possible edgeguarder.

Really appreciate the detailed reply.

I think your interpretations of my attributes are correct. If we change Fox as you suggested then he becomes:

Shears:
Fox
- Distance : B
- Safety : D
- Options : A
- Overall : C+

That would put his recovery a bit above DK and right below Luigi.

I knew someone would bring up LD. He has definitely shown that Fox's recovery isn't as 1-dimensional as it seems at first glance. However, giving Fox an A in Options means that he has the same amount of options as Yoshi, Kirby, and Samus. I feel like that's a bit much. Fox has more options than average (hence the B grade I originally gave) but although LD amazes us with his prowess, he's still losing a significant number of stocks due to Fox's recovery. The reason I gave him a B in the first place is that he can choose to go straight to the edge or upwards and then has more choices during his special fall (as you mentioned). I could understand raising a C to a B, but B to A seems like overplaying things to me.

I do agree that Fox should get a higher score for Distance. I'd be very comfortable giving him:

New (?)
Fox
- Distance : B
- Safety : D
- Options : B
- Overall : C

Which would means his recovery is about as good as DK's. Thoughts?

 

[The Star King]

I pretty much just averaged out the attribute scores. Which of those did you disagree with?

ok sure

why is puff/kirby's safety lower than samus/mario's, why is puff/kirby's options lower than samus/mario's

while we're on the subject, why the hell is pika's safety C?? (inb4 shears)

 

[Shears]

I would say Fox is losing stocks because of safety not options. I think Fox has more options than Yoshi and Samus recovering, the only reason Yoshi and Samus don't lose as many stocks is because of safety from invincibility or super armor. Yoshi can only jump and the jump is limited in the angles Yoshi can take. Samus can only upb and thats only one direction. Fox can upb in a lot of different angles and can upb close and ride up the ledge, or upb far away and fall back. Fox can upb to the ledge and sweet spot or just out of pika fsmash range and fall special back to it. Fox can upb to the side plats and pull back to grab ledge or weave in between the ledge and plat to land below the plat.

Pika poses no risk to any edgeguarder, pika upb is the safest thing to edgeguard against and you can say that the safety to edgeguard is inversely proportional to the safety of recovery.

 

[Shears]

I think what we see by yoshi and samus surviving more often than fox is that sometimes safety is more important than options.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

why is puff/kirby's safety lower than samus/mario's, why is puff/kirby's options lower than samus/mario's

My reasoning was that things will trade/beat the puffball's aerials (if they're facing forwards) while almost nothing is going to beat Samus/Mario upB. Perhaps a C is a little low for Kirby and Jigglypuff though since it is scary to go offstage against them. I would definitely be happy bumping their "Safety" grades to B's which would give them A's overall putting them on par with Samus and Mario. Does that seem right?

while we're on the subject, why the hell is pika's safety C?? (inb4 shears)

Pika poses no risk to any edgeguarder, pika upb is the safest thing to edgeguard against and you can say that the safety to edgeguard is inversely proportional to the safety of recovery.

His upB doesn't have hitboxes so I feel like "Safety" can't be an A. I really think Pika's recovery is so good because of distance and number of places he can upB to which is manifest in the other attributes.

I almost agree with this but I think that it's still dangerous to go offstage. If Pika upB's to the edge and now he's in between me and the stage and that's really scary for a lot of the characters.

 

[The Star King]

Pika's safety is SSS+++

he is unedgeguardable™ in a lot of situations, but for some reason nobody copies boom (jump right above edge and upb into it, unless your opponent is right there, in which case you go as far as possible, only punishable if you get a hard read AND you're a fast character)

 

[Grahamaglam]

Yes you aught.

I was mostly pointing out cuddles post but I might as well share some of my opinions on Link's recovery.

My take on the 'safety' of a recovery is how easily that character can 'secure' the spot where they want to recover. For example, Yoshi's super armour at low percents almost guarantees that if he could reach side platform/grab ledge/ land on stage/ etc,he could get there with little worry of being knocked back off the stage in the process. DK can position his arms and body during his recovery to take advantage of the invulnerability of his hands during his recovery and grab the edge at the last second. I wouldn't count Falcon's recovery as safe because he can't really do anything to increase his chances of getting back on stage other than to bait out a certain edgeguard from the opponent and doug hug them from there, but a lot of attacks can shut out his recovery altogether. Using the definition given by Shears, Pika doesn't have a safe recovery because his upb has no hitbox and can have end lag as well. The only way he could counter edgeguard would be to sweet spot the recovery and counter edgeguard before the other player could make it back.

For Link, he's pretty much dead if he tries to recover from below the edge because the opponent can just grab the ledge with good timing and have a laugh since Link won't have enough time to pull out a bomb and can't angle his boomerang high enough. If Link is knocked off the stage high enough or close enough to the stage, he can pull out a bomb/throw a boomerang to limit the options the other player has to edgeguard or even create an opportunity to counter edgeguard. Link's bomb is great to use in recovery if you have enough time to pull it out and throw it. It is an (almost) unclankable projectile that can intercept the other player or to throw on stage to block the ground next to the ledge. The boomerang is even more variable of a projectile given that it has 20 different ways you can throw it but only 10 really matter in recovering. You could potentially cut off on entire zone to the other player when they attempt to edgeguard. It's not a perfect or consistent way to zone off an opponent, but it can create a short time window where Link could attempt to recover.

I would have Link's recovery be safer than Flacon's recovery since falcon doesn't have that many opportunities to use other moves such as up air or down air to help get back on stage and his recovery can be easily beaten by a number of moves while Link has two versatile projectiles at his disposal for certain recoveries that can help clear the ledge, but his recover is also beat out by a lot of moves. I would move Link's 'safety' above Flacon to a C+ or B-.

Discuss.

 

[Sedda]

the "safety" criterium seems weird since that depends a lot on the matchup rather than just one character.

i feel like my safety with fox is s tier if i have a double jump that can get me close to the stage vs ness, but safety vs pika goes way down

 

[Shears]

There's definitely a lot to be discussed and a lot that is still not settled but I like this thread a lot. Its like Jouske chart but with recovery and 3 axis.

 

[Annex]

Cool thread!

The controversial ranking is in "safety", and like Sedda said that seems extremely matchup and situation dependent, though in any situation or matchup I cannot see how you could rank Falcon and Links recoverys as 'just as safe' as Pika and Kirby's, all of which are not as safe as DK's (???)

I guess I'm wondering what you mean by the safety of a characters recovery because this seems really strange.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Pika's safety is SSS+++

he is unedgeguardable™ in a lot of situations, but for some reason nobody copies boom (jump right above edge and upb into it, unless your opponent is right there, in which case you go as far as possible, only punishable if you get a hard read AND you're a fast character)

Cool thread!

The controversial ranking is in "safety"
...
I guess I'm wondering what you mean by the safety of a characters recovery because this seems really strange.

the "safety" criterium seems weird since that depends a lot on the matchup rather than just one character.

i feel like my safety with fox is s tier if i have a double jump that can get me close to the stage vs ness, but safety vs pika goes way down

Yeah this "Safety" issue seems to be pretty ambiguous. Let me try to explain what I was attempting to capture.

We would all agree that Mario's recovery is significantly better than Luigi's. However, they can go more or less the same Distance so it can't be that. They generally have the same Options (rising tornado, save jump by floating around, extended upB) and pretty much the only difference is that Mario's projectiles are better but this isn't the main reason. So it's not in either Distance or Options that Mario outclasses Luigi. We need another category

The reason that Mario's recovery is so much better is that you have very little chance of beating his upB whether you go out against him or stay on stage and try to smash/tilt. As Luigi, I'm happy with how far I can recover but I get scared if someone challenges my recovery or waits onstage for my upB. When I'm plaing Mario, I couldn't care less if someone comes out to get me. In fact, I'd love to see a Falcon jump out and try to get a bair. My upB will wreck him and then it's really likely that I'll be able to turn it around for a stock. Offstage with Mario, I feel safe.

Shears talks about safety being proportional with how dangerous it is to edgeguard. I think that's a nice idea but starts to let the matchup dependence stuff creep in. I was really thinking about how safe you feel while offstage. With Mario and Yoshi, I have absolutely no fear of someone coming after me. With Falcon and Fox, my whole goal is to get back onstage without my recovery being contested. With someone like Pikachu, I am confident that my recovery will be successful but I don't feel particularly safe while offstage. If someone comes out against me, I'm not going to try to trade with my Fair, I'm just going to upB past them.

I realize this makes the "Safety" attribute pretty subjective. How can you determine how "safe" you feel? But there are some clear cut cases: Mario is safer than Luigi (that is the defining difference in their recoveries); Yoshi is very safe; Falcon is very unsafe offstage; the purpose of a Ness player's existence is to be offstage as little as possible; etc.

I was mostly pointing out cuddles post but I might as well share some of my opinions on Link's recovery.

I would have Link's recovery be safer than Flacon's recovery since falcon doesn't have that many opportunities to use other moves such as up air or down air to help get back on stage and his recovery can be easily beaten by a number of moves while Link has two versatile projectiles at his disposal for certain recoveries that can help clear the ledge, but his recover is also beat out by a lot of moves. I would move Link's 'safety' above Flacon to a C+ or B-.

Discuss.

This is a good insight but in my thinking it falls under Options rather than Safety. By what you said, Link has many more Options than Falcon while trying to recovery. However, with both of them I live in fear while offstage.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Oops meant to edit above post for clarity

 

[murgatroidsp]

It seems to me that you're still missing at least one characteristic of recovery.

You say Ness has a horrible recovery because of his off-stage vulnerability, but there's also his vulnerability post-recovery and bad ledge options. I assume you gave Ness a C for options because (if above stage) he can recover from a number of different angles, sweet spot the ledge, or perfect land on stage. However, recovering high and landing on stage means you will have to deal with Ness's bad upB landing lag. Sweet spotting to the ledge means you have to deal with Ness's relatively poor ledge options. Contrast this with a character like Falcon, who has much less upB landing lag and can ledge hop aerial much more effectively than Ness.

Basically I'm saying that recovery is not merely the act of getting back to stage, but the act of returning to a neutral state on-stage. Maybe this is captured in either Options or Safety, but I'm not quite clear on exactly what those criteria are.

 

[murgatroidsp]

I worry that "Safety" and "Options" are vague enough that they're not being applied the same way to all characters.

If I'm understanding this correctly, I'm seeing two different pieces to the "Safety" definition:
1) How much the character poses a treat to edgeguarders (which is why Pika's Safety grade is low)
2) How safe you feel off-stage (which is why Link's Safety grade is low)
So this seems to lead to grading Link and Pika differently on the "Safety" criterion.

Also, I don't love the "how safe you feel off-stage" definition for Safety in the first place because I think it creates a lot of overlap between Safety and and the other criteria. If I'm Link off-stage, I feel very unsafe, but almost entirely because Link doesn't get good distance. Between upB's solid hitbox and Link's projectiles, I'm not particularly worried about being hit mid-recovery. I also feel pretty safe with Pika, purely because I have so many options and such good distance that I'm pretty confident I can get around a prospective edgeguarder.

I'm understanding Options as how well the character is able to mix up its recovery. So I get why Mario, Luigi, and Pika are A+. Some of the grades seem a bit inflated. Yoshi is a particularly interesting case. It seems like he has very few options, but doesn't really suffer because his options are so hard to beat. So here too, it seems like there are a couple things going on. There are the number of options, but also the strength of those options.

 

[Multiball]

How does magnet fit into this? Would you say it's included with "options?" Otherwise, it seems like one category that's useful to know about and extremely objective: the farther away you can be from the from the ledge and grab it, the better.

I also feel like game from the ledge is variable worth considering. Ultimately, I suppose it falls under the aegis of "options," but in gameplay terms, I feel like I think about getting to the ledge and then getting from the ledge to the stage differently.

 

[MrMarbles]

samus overrated, and fox underrated here

 

[Tom Bombadil]

samus overrated, and fox underrated here

Yeah I'm starting to get that sense. Are there specific attributes that you think are incorrect for them? Also, are you talking about Fox's original grades or the update that I did after Shears' comments?

 

[MrMarbles]

Yeah I'm starting to get that sense. Are there specific attributes that you think are incorrect for them? Also, are you talking about Fox's original grades or the update that I did after Shears' comments?

i was refering to the original. Personally i just think it's really easy to edgegaurd samus if you play a character than can jump off stage. As for fox he has solid mix ups when he can recover high due to his great drift after his upb.

 

[Kirbstomper]

Awesome thread idea, tom is quickly becoming one of my favorite members of this community.

I don't have much to add, just wanted to pop in and say shears is dumb and Pika is relatively safe off stage. Also I think kirbys safety rating is low, not a lot of people will contest a Kirby recoreving high because of fear of reversal. Honestly Id give kirbys safety an A or B+, only because of the limited options when recovering low.

Yoshi is interesting because at a low percent he is guaranteed to get back, but at 100 percent or so and up its extremely difficult to get back.

Anyway, I love this idea and am fired up to see the input from people

 

[SSBMagy]

Ehh, DK with a C on his recovery, it just seems off to give him a C. D+ maybe? haha

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Ehh, DK with a C on his recovery, it just seems off to give him a C. D+ maybe? haha

I was about to ask you to explain your reasoning. Good thing I realized the joke before it was too late, would have looked like a dingle

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Just posted a recovery video and used the responses here to make a visual intro for each character with their "recovery stats"

Thanks for the replies from everyone and I hope my end product is at least acceptable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS2NtcRCuq4

 

[Grahamaglam]

Just posted a recovery video and used the responses here to make a visual intro for each character with their "recovery stats"

Thanks for the replies from everyone and I hope my end product is at least acceptable!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS2NtcRCuq4

I didn't know Puff's forward air also gave a horizontal boost. Cool stuff.