jaza
Smash Rookie
maybe it's me but i don't think such an advanced move would be put in a trailer aimed at noobs
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"Reading between the lines" what was really revealed
- Thread starter Plomid
- Start date
Chepe
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 1, 2006
- Messages
- 1,146
Yeah, I doubt wavedashing was used in any of the trailers. And sorry to dampen your hopes, but if the air dodge were downgraded so you cant dodge in a direction then there would still be air dodging yet no wavedashing...
Oh, and Wario's move is likely a B move. Its his signature tackle from the Warioland series...
Oh, and Wario's move is likely a B move. Its his signature tackle from the Warioland series...
Plomid
Smash Ace
yup but hes pretty zoomed out so its kinda hard to see but they're there alright.
hellsoldierx15
Smash Journeyman
so far, with the info released, its using the same gameplay as melee...so it has to be useful.
Dont know if this has already been said but you forgot 2 points
- The wiimote have practically been confirmed as the 'How to play' icon looks VERY similar to a wiimote
- Sakurai says at the beginning of the music list "This is dangerous. It's a little risky." Hmmm why would putting music artists be risky? The suspense it rising!
- The wiimote have practically been confirmed as the 'How to play' icon looks VERY similar to a wiimote
- Sakurai says at the beginning of the music list "This is dangerous. It's a little risky." Hmmm why would putting music artists be risky? The suspense it rising!
Zauron
Smash Journeyman
We already have another thread making this same claim - pictures = air dodge = wave dashing. Its foolish to believe that. First of all, the pictures could just be arranged renders to look cool - it says right on the bottom of the page that they do not necessarily reflect final gameplay. Second of all, I HIGHLY doubt they would remove air dodging, its a major feature of Melee that all players of all skill levels use. Thirdly, and most importantly, air dodge does NOT mean they have to have wave dashing. I'm not sure what idiot started that rumor, but air dodge could work 100% the way it does now (including dodging toward the ground) and they could still kill Wavedashing.
What follows is my post from the other thread that made the same claim.
I am a game programmer, and trust me on this - it would be EXTREMELY easy to remove Wavedashing while leaving air dodging in the game and not having characters fall through the ground. There's a dozen different ways you could do it, many of which would require less than 3 lines of code.
The simplest way is that when a character touches the ground during an air-dodge state, all momentum is immediately lost and the character is left standing stil on the ground in their idle state. Boom, you have air dodging, you can air dodge into the ground, but when you do you just stop, thus no wavedash. They could even go beyond that and have a special air-dodge-land animation for each character for this state, which could also stop the character from moving around or even act like a stationary Tech providing some invincibility frames from the dodge attempt.
Thinking that air dodges is in any way proof that Wavedashing is going to be left alone is just silly.
Now, lets consider some facts:
- Many advanced techniques are clearly intended - L-cancelling, fast-falling, proper DI, etc. had to have been coded intentionally. No one can sanely deny this.
- Other advanced techniques are clearly bugs, like Samus's Super Wavedash. These will be removed. Some new ones may come to light later, as bugs are inevitably found and exploited.
- Wavedashing is a special case - its not really a bug, its a side effect of game mechanics. It could be removed easily, but was not for Melee. The devs knew about it before Melee was released and decided it was fine to leave it in. However, they may not have realized how people would end up using it and how heavily used it would be.
- All other advanced techniques besides Wavedashing (and those based on bugs) can be difficult to learn to properly use in combat, HOWEVER, they are different than Wavedashing in that they all involve very simple inputs. Tap L/R just before landing. Press Down after the height of your jump. Tap Jump lightly to short hop. Wavedashing, however, requires a sequence of pressing Jump, holding the correct angle, and pressing L/R at the exact right time. Doing this once isn't too hard after a bit, but doing it consistantly takes a lot of practice compared to other techniques to even perform at all, let alone use it in your metagame.
- Smash Bros differientiates itself from other fighting games by having simple and easy-to-learn controls yet still requiring great skill to master timing, positioning, which move to use, and so on. Every move in Smash Bros can be performed by a single direction on the stick (or none) and a single button (exception being Grab, but you can use Z as a shortcut to the L/R+A method). Many moves even have multiple ways to perform them, but none are complicated button SEQUENCES like they are in other fighting games. They are just a single button press.
- Taking the above 2 points, Wavedashing's input requirements does not fit well with Smash Bros. core design. It is too complicated even for an advanced technique to input regularly when compared to every other move in the game (personally, I can Wavesdash just fine, my main is Luigi, but I know many people have trouble with it and it can take a long time to do it consistantly).
However, Wavedashing also adds a lot to the game, and I think Sakurai realizes this.
I believe that the solution is to ignore Wavedashing - it may be removed, but it doesn't have to be. Instead, to fit better with the spirit of the Smash Bros controls, I believe Sakurai's plan is to REPLACE Wavedashing with a move that serves mostly the same function, but is much easier to do. Wavedashing for everyone. Then like every other move, it will be all about when and how you use it (just like it is for any advanced player) but not so much whether or not you can even do the move at all.
There is evidence to support this in the most recent trailer - several characters move in a manner similar to Wavedashing, but appear to be doing a very quick roll/dodge. The roll is faster than rolling has traditionally been, yet is clearly NOT a Wavedash because careful analysis shows the jump start animation never plays and other signs of Wavedashing are not there. Also, the characters seem to be able to attack out of this roll very quickly, and it even appears the length of it may be adjusted somehow.
My theory is that side rolling will be upgraded to be a very fast side dodge, with little punishing lag, and be INTERRUPTABLE (with an attack or another dodge). This would make it a move that is as effective as Wavedashing (moreso even, because of the invincibility frames before you interrupt it or let it end) yet is easily performed by any player. Now it will be a matter of learning when to use it, just like any other move, and not as much a barrier to being performed accurately at all. Much better suited to the Smash Bros. mentality. And with this move, the original Wavedash doesn't matter if its left in or not - in most cases it won't be worth the effort to do it when a generally better option is available.
What follows is my post from the other thread that made the same claim.
I am a game programmer, and trust me on this - it would be EXTREMELY easy to remove Wavedashing while leaving air dodging in the game and not having characters fall through the ground. There's a dozen different ways you could do it, many of which would require less than 3 lines of code.
The simplest way is that when a character touches the ground during an air-dodge state, all momentum is immediately lost and the character is left standing stil on the ground in their idle state. Boom, you have air dodging, you can air dodge into the ground, but when you do you just stop, thus no wavedash. They could even go beyond that and have a special air-dodge-land animation for each character for this state, which could also stop the character from moving around or even act like a stationary Tech providing some invincibility frames from the dodge attempt.
Thinking that air dodges is in any way proof that Wavedashing is going to be left alone is just silly.
Now, lets consider some facts:
- Many advanced techniques are clearly intended - L-cancelling, fast-falling, proper DI, etc. had to have been coded intentionally. No one can sanely deny this.
- Other advanced techniques are clearly bugs, like Samus's Super Wavedash. These will be removed. Some new ones may come to light later, as bugs are inevitably found and exploited.
- Wavedashing is a special case - its not really a bug, its a side effect of game mechanics. It could be removed easily, but was not for Melee. The devs knew about it before Melee was released and decided it was fine to leave it in. However, they may not have realized how people would end up using it and how heavily used it would be.
- All other advanced techniques besides Wavedashing (and those based on bugs) can be difficult to learn to properly use in combat, HOWEVER, they are different than Wavedashing in that they all involve very simple inputs. Tap L/R just before landing. Press Down after the height of your jump. Tap Jump lightly to short hop. Wavedashing, however, requires a sequence of pressing Jump, holding the correct angle, and pressing L/R at the exact right time. Doing this once isn't too hard after a bit, but doing it consistantly takes a lot of practice compared to other techniques to even perform at all, let alone use it in your metagame.
- Smash Bros differientiates itself from other fighting games by having simple and easy-to-learn controls yet still requiring great skill to master timing, positioning, which move to use, and so on. Every move in Smash Bros can be performed by a single direction on the stick (or none) and a single button (exception being Grab, but you can use Z as a shortcut to the L/R+A method). Many moves even have multiple ways to perform them, but none are complicated button SEQUENCES like they are in other fighting games. They are just a single button press.
- Taking the above 2 points, Wavedashing's input requirements does not fit well with Smash Bros. core design. It is too complicated even for an advanced technique to input regularly when compared to every other move in the game (personally, I can Wavesdash just fine, my main is Luigi, but I know many people have trouble with it and it can take a long time to do it consistantly).
However, Wavedashing also adds a lot to the game, and I think Sakurai realizes this.
I believe that the solution is to ignore Wavedashing - it may be removed, but it doesn't have to be. Instead, to fit better with the spirit of the Smash Bros controls, I believe Sakurai's plan is to REPLACE Wavedashing with a move that serves mostly the same function, but is much easier to do. Wavedashing for everyone. Then like every other move, it will be all about when and how you use it (just like it is for any advanced player) but not so much whether or not you can even do the move at all.
There is evidence to support this in the most recent trailer - several characters move in a manner similar to Wavedashing, but appear to be doing a very quick roll/dodge. The roll is faster than rolling has traditionally been, yet is clearly NOT a Wavedash because careful analysis shows the jump start animation never plays and other signs of Wavedashing are not there. Also, the characters seem to be able to attack out of this roll very quickly, and it even appears the length of it may be adjusted somehow.
My theory is that side rolling will be upgraded to be a very fast side dodge, with little punishing lag, and be INTERRUPTABLE (with an attack or another dodge). This would make it a move that is as effective as Wavedashing (moreso even, because of the invincibility frames before you interrupt it or let it end) yet is easily performed by any player. Now it will be a matter of learning when to use it, just like any other move, and not as much a barrier to being performed accurately at all. Much better suited to the Smash Bros. mentality. And with this move, the original Wavedash doesn't matter if its left in or not - in most cases it won't be worth the effort to do it when a generally better option is available.
Keta
Smash Journeyman
I've said this so many times. lol
Airdodging can keep it's direction input and everything. The only thing they would need is a few lines of code to stop movement upon landing. Airdodging is too big a part of aerial combat to make it only dodge on the spot.
It is only going to use the wiimote for minigames and other stuff like that. It is merely showing the wiimote because it is on the Wii. The combat part of the game will be gamecube controller.
..and I think it's dangerous just to have so many musicians for one game.
hellsoldierx15
Smash Journeyman
Keta
Smash Journeyman
1. Pikachu is airdodging in two of yesterday's pictures.
2. I saw that, but I assume he's just moving his arms in an idle animation. I don't see bubble shields leaving the game.
2. I saw that, but I assume he's just moving his arms in an idle animation. I don't see bubble shields leaving the game.
I.T.P
Smash Ace
i think that they can even keep the movement on landing(which i usually call waveland\ing) but just give it an end lag. and viola, you've destroyed the abuseableness of wave dashing. also they can make it that the slide animation can't be used for moves except jumping, like with the normal dash.
it's just about whether or not they want to remove it. there's no problem for actually doing so.
it's just about whether or not they want to remove it. there's no problem for actually doing so.
Caael
Smash Lord
Isn't Brawl being built on the same engine as melee? If it is, then wavedashing is a definate.
Keta
Smash Journeyman
No, it's not..
Caael
Smash Lord
Oh, well maybe not then.
If you look at the picture where Mario punches Link, Link has high damage yet no knockback. This add's more evidence to the fact he is heavier.
If you look at the picture where Mario punches Link, Link has high damage yet no knockback. This add's more evidence to the fact he is heavier.
Caael
Smash Lord
It says on the site ' Daily weekday updates' so apart from Sat and Sun, we'll get info each day.
Right. Lets work out how long it takes for the site to update get all of the old info on there and start with some new information.
So it's taken 1 day for 2 characters. There are 10 characters, including link and mario so thats 4 days if they add 2 per day. It's updated on all days apart from weekdays. Lets say that from today they add the characters, so on monday, they will have added all the characters.
Any items announced will be new, so that doesnt matter.
There are 9 stages we have seen, 1 has been on the site, and that was 1 in 1 days. So 8 days. If we say we put 4 of them with the 4 days it takes for the characters, thats an additional 4 days until they are all put on the site, taking us to next friday.
I'm not sure what will happen with the music, but anything else will be new.
Game modes will be new.
So it's next friday until we get some new information.
TakDragon7
Smash Lord
It will take a while to fully get the site updated but just be patient tho
Adi
Smash Lord
Yeah don't expect much until everything that we've already confirmed is reassesed by Sakurai, which could be weeks from now.
I.T.P
Smash Ace
or he could allways add new bits and pieces in the middle, or alternate between releasing new and old info. so it might be new info everyday.
a little bit of optimism is a nessecity
a little bit of optimism is a nessecity
ChRed2AKrisp
Smash Master
umm. i know this is old, but it IS a spike/meteor. I assume you're talking about when he uses it right at the beginning. It's unclear, but pikachu, who lands on the platform is sent flying away, like normal, butr kirby, who is airborn, gets sent down.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I just looked,and technically,Pikachu is airborn when the attack connected.
It still remains a mystery.
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
*more reading between the lines*
I HIGHLY doubt this is correct but in the Mario description where he says, "He overwhelms opponents with magnificent jumping action!", does that mean that POSSIBLY Mario has the secret ability to damage opponents by simply jumping on them? It'd be a great little easter egg/tribute to the Mario series. Not sure how much it would add to the game though. potential spike? more damage if done with a fastfall? I dunno.
I HIGHLY doubt this is correct but in the Mario description where he says, "He overwhelms opponents with magnificent jumping action!", does that mean that POSSIBLY Mario has the secret ability to damage opponents by simply jumping on them? It'd be a great little easter egg/tribute to the Mario series. Not sure how much it would add to the game though. potential spike? more damage if done with a fastfall? I dunno.
Saferwaters
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2007
- Messages
- 11
well... I think that air dodge is not completely certain. In the screen shot it looks like Pichaku is just air dodging (non-directional) so it is possible that they limited the air dodge... however I would hate this as I love directional air dodging even though I don't Wavedash.
also.... Gooey Bomb looks really tight!
i can just imagine turning gooegy bombs only up to high... o the 3 A.M. Madness!
also.... Gooey Bomb looks really tight!
i can just imagine turning gooegy bombs only up to high... o the 3 A.M. Madness!
craiigg
Smash Lord
saying we'll have to wait til next friday for new info is jumping ahead a little isn't it?
considering in 2 days yes we've had lots of info/screenshots/etc
yes the site claims daily weekday updates BUT theres nothing about multiple updates on days so characters could be finished within a day or two and with the new item added already its very possible Sakurai will be switching between new and old information to keep us keen.
SNORE im tired >_> but just sit and wait people : D
considering in 2 days yes we've had lots of info/screenshots/etc
yes the site claims daily weekday updates BUT theres nothing about multiple updates on days so characters could be finished within a day or two and with the new item added already its very possible Sakurai will be switching between new and old information to keep us keen.
SNORE im tired >_> but just sit and wait people : D
Plomid
Smash Ace
i was kinda wondering now.
now that this item has been revealed AND the air dodge, how will these too work together?
so if you have been hit by the bomb and its stuck too you you just have to know the right moment to dodge and not get hurt at all?
will this be the first attack/item that overwrites the dodge?
i guess we'll only find out when the game is finally released
now that this item has been revealed AND the air dodge, how will these too work together?
so if you have been hit by the bomb and its stuck too you you just have to know the right moment to dodge and not get hurt at all?
will this be the first attack/item that overwrites the dodge?
i guess we'll only find out when the game is finally released
blueVlaD
Smash Cadet
that 'next friday' prediction doesn't seem right.
because nobody on Earth was expecting the
release of the "gooey grenade" so they are
give info in a 'random order', hopefully controls soon
because nobody on Earth was expecting the
release of the "gooey grenade" so they are
give info in a 'random order', hopefully controls soon
The Bino
Smash Lord
That wouldn't make sense at all, think of the Gooey Bomb as any other item in Melee, it will have to hit you to stick to you is the only exception... now if you were to throw an item in Melee but u Air Dodged it, it won't hit you, plain and simple it won't hit you, you will Dodge it, so the Gooey Bomb will have to hit you to stick to you, and it looks like when you are to pass it on to someone else they look as it their sheild was broken in Melee
Gooey Bomb - http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/images/item01/item01_070524e-l.jpg
Plomid
Smash Ace
updated it
because i heard a while ago that some people were hoping that the helicopter attack was not his uair but his recovery.
because i heard a while ago that some people were hoping that the helicopter attack was not his uair but his recovery.
The Bino
Smash Lord
11. that helicopter aerial attack form the trailer was exactly that an aerial attack not a recovery(revealed at the latest update of the Dojo
Dude where ppl really thinking this was a recovery move, that's saddening really... look at the attack carefully, you don't need to be told that this is an aerial attack, look at the attack doesn't it look rather similar to another attack we have already seen... look at Mewtwo's Nair attack, now look at Pit's attack, seems rather similar, except Pit is hitting em with his Bow/Swords and not with Electricity
Dude where ppl really thinking this was a recovery move, that's saddening really... look at the attack carefully, you don't need to be told that this is an aerial attack, look at the attack doesn't it look rather similar to another attack we have already seen... look at Mewtwo's Nair attack, now look at Pit's attack, seems rather similar, except Pit is hitting em with his Bow/Swords and not with Electricity