Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

[slavoslav]

http://youtu.be/vZlISbVPR5I
Here is another example of a pacman main showing what galaxian can do to opponents off if a single hit.

this looks like it's totally applicable in a real match against a human opponent

 

[Nu~]

this looks like it's totally applicable in a real match against a human opponent

Appreciate the sarcasm.

If you didn't know, the combo isn't escapable even with DI. Abadango tested its validity on stream and showed that's it's legit.

 

[slavoslav]

okay so let me get this straight

you only need to have a galboss ready, get a grab on a dedede with 30% with pacman's horrible grab, hope he doesn't tech the down-throw, don't have any rage because that would likely interfer with your combos and rely on dedede not di-ing since that might give him enough time to mess up your spacing in order to sneak in an air-dodge

i would question it if it didn't seem so plausible

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Actually agree with Slavoslav on this one. It's almost like you guys are assuming that the D3 player has put down their controller or something, lol.

That said, I dunno how I feel about the MU with Pac-Man. I don't think he walls D3 out, but he can play the lame game really well by virtue of running ala Dabuz style. I'd give him the slight edge for that alone. It's nowhere near a landslide victory for Pac, though. We have range and we have disjointed hitboxes on our side, and one misstep means Pac is going to be sleeping with the fishes relatively early.

I'm just gonna say 60:40 and leave it at that.

Smooth Criminal

 

[shrooby]

Why didn't I remember this until now... AGH

Due to Paragon, and my attending, I'm extending this session until the day it ends, on the 7th.
I somehow completely forgot even though I'll BE THERE

 

[Jdawg26]

Man, I suck. I forgot to comment on this until today... I'm fairly busy so this'll be a quick one.

DDD wins this MU. I honestly think it's the only MU we have solidly in our favor.

In a lot of matchups, Pac wins by setting the stage and making it a living hell for the opponent to approach him provided he has the lead, and setting multiple traps a long the way. DDD is an anomaly because not only does he not have to approach Pac from the ground, he's also one of the heaviest characters in the game; thus exacerbating Pac's low kill power. Couple that with massive disjoints to help prevent Pac from challenging us in the air with his underwhelming aerials, and you have yourself a pretty tricky matchup for the ol' yellow pellet.

Tips:
-Uair will clank with the fire hydrant and neutralize the hitbox as it falls, negating one of his best landing options.
- Learn what each fruit does. Just learn it.
- If you're high in the air and Pac doesn't have the key on deck, you're probably not in danger of dying until at least 140. You shouldn't be dying early by any means as long as you avoid the bell.
- If you manage to catch one of his fruits; if you z drop it and then immediately do an aerial you can drop/catch it at the same time while still doing an aerial. Helps you maintain momentum/pressure.
- The hydrant takes 13% to knock it back, so keep track of your hits. Dsmash, dash attack, usmash, bair, and the combined hits of side-b all knock it back immediately.

All in all I believe it's 60:40

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I guess I can get on board with that @ Jdawg26 , but I'm worried about Pac laming us out. He can do that very easily.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I mentioned most of those points @ Jdawg26 though probably not as concisely as you did there. I wasn't aware there was an exact percentage to destroy the hydrant though.

 

[Axel311]

I guess I can get on board with that @ Jdawg26 , but I'm worried about Pac laming us out. He can do that very easily.

Smooth Criminal

Same. I respect Jdawg's opinion but I'm not convinced. What can Dedede do against a super campy Pacman?

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Hey wait a minute I actually know a really good PacMan player why have I not requested his presence?

@ makemesmellbad where you at my man?

 

[makemesmellbad]

@ JimmyTheCaterpillar Up here in Natchitoches, yo.

In my experience, the D3 vs. Pac matchup is in Dedede's favor. Though Pac has a lot of tools to deal with D3's traps and harassment, D3 has a much better boxing game and more dangerous combos than Pac. I wouldn't say it's unwinnable for Pac, but it is a harder matchup because of D3's melee range and ability to break Hydrant easily. Trampoline isn't much for stage control as D3 has safer landing options and higher priority aerials than Pac.

Until cherries stale, they do hit Gordos away. I find I spam much more cherries in a D3 match than most others because D3 has a much harder time dealing with the speed and distance being right out of his f-tilt range. Normally, the D3 will be going for the grab combos and quick punishes in this matchup while Pac tries to bait out laggy moves and harass with Fruit.

The only other thing I think D3 has over Pac is that heavy-ass weight. Pac already struggles to kill consistently, and D3 is going to wait until around 150% to even come close to dying to any of Pac's better kill options. He can't gimp D3 very well, if he whiffs any punish, D3 can punish really hard, and D3 has enough jumps to dive in after Pac's trampoline from just about anywhere to steal the third bounce.

If Pac-Man can win the neutral about 80% of the time, he'll probably end up winning, but D3 has a lot of priority, range, power, and weight to keep Pac-Man at bay if he messes up even once.

I would say this match up is 60:40 in D3's favor. It's an odd outcome, but D3 has some odd properties for a heavyweight.

So, to reiterate everything @ Jdawg26 said, D3 wins this matchup. I agree with his analysis wholly.

 

[shrooby]

@ makemesmellbad please avoid posting two times in a row; just use the "Edit" feature and edit your first post.


Sorry to keep you waiting!
Pac is done
50:50

Also, I'm making an executive decision to move DK up 'cause that MU has quickly become actually relevant!

And now the Pits!
Doing both at the same time 'cause that's more productive.
Discuss!

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Personally speaking I've never had too much trouble with this match-up. I'd wager that Pit is slightly harder for us than Dark Pit just because his arrows are better. Easier time stealing jumps/sniping Gordos, basically.

The thing with the Pits is that they have elements of the characters that tend to give Dedede trouble, but they aren't that good at it. They aren't as fast as the likes of Pikachu or Sheik, they have a worse combo game than the top tiers, and honestly I've felt their kill power is rather lacking. Pit has ftilt/fthrow, both of which are dangerous near the edge but Dedede should be able to poke him and keep him away. Their side b kinda requires a hard read to hit, and in the case of Pit his launches vertically so we tend to survive it more often than not. It's also worth noting that inhale actually straight up beats the upperdash arm from my experience.

Pit's recovery is strong but he doesn't have an active hitbox on it, so when he's forced to use up b we can smack him right out it pretty easily. I had a bit of trouble securing the off stage kill in that match but a better player could certainly wall pit out.

Pit's jab 1 seems to confirm into a grab and various other things, so that's something to watch out for. Pit has a good aerial game, but well-spaced bair kind of just walls him out. Arrows make it somewhat annoying to approach him but Dedede should be able to powershield those at will. If you get Pit off stage, I definitely think he will struggle to get back against Dedede despite his good recovery.

The main thing to look out for is his grab, which can lead to a potential juggle situation, and his arrows, especially when we're off stage. They can steal our jumps and just be a general nuisance. On the other hand, I don't think he has a good response to Gordo once we have it out. My initial thoughts are that Dedede has the advantage over Pit.

Dark Pit is the same except his side b might be a little bit better in this match up, and his arrows are straight up worse against Dedede.

 

[makemesmellbad]

@ makemesmellbad please avoid posting two times in a row; just use the "Edit" feature and edit your first post.

My b, bruh

 

[TMNTSSB4]

As a Pit main who has fought alot of DeDeDe players, I'd say it's even. Pit can combo him due to how huge he is, but so can DeDeDe, and they both can dominate in the air(Pit a bit more). Arrows and GOs can stop Gordos instantly. Dedede would just need grabs and dash attacks to rack up damage against Pit. Both need to watch out from being spiked though. Pit's tilts with tipper can also KO DeDeDe quickly, Upperdash might take a while depending on rage or not.

Dark Pit on the other hand, would need to use Electroshock a bit more in this matchup. DeDeDe's Gordos compared to his arrows wouldn't be a problem, but killing him nowhere near the ledge might be a huge problem. Since that's Pit's thing, Dark Pit would need to force him to be near the ledge/offstage.

 

[slavoslav]

Dedede would just need grabs and dash attacks to rack up damage against Pit.

Dedede would just need... dash attacks to rack up damage against Pit.

Dedede... dash attacks... to rack up damage

wot

Dedede has about the least neutral-applicable dash attack in the game. I mean it's great for memeing during the opponent's respawn time lol and it does have situational uses for punishes and Falcon Punch level difficulty reads but you're not going to rack up damage with it against anyone who knows where on his controller the shield button is located.

As far as the Pit MU is concered I'm fairly sure it's even if not in Dedede's favor. I find Pit's recovery relatively easy to intercept off-stage and on-stage he isn't exactly threatening. He can't really take advantage of Dedede's weight as Pit isn't the greatest juggler and he lacks reliable kill options apart from fthrow near the ledge at very high percents. Arrows are meh for Gordo reflection and neither his nair nor his fair reflect them reliably since the initial individual hits do less than 2% damage.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

wot

Dedede has about the least neutral-applicable dash attack in the game. I mean it's great for memeing during the opponent's respawn time lol and it does have situational uses for punishes and Falcon Punch level difficulty reads but you're not going to rack up damage with it against anyone who knows where on his controller the shield button is located.

As far as the Pit MU is concered I'm fairly sure it's even if not in Dedede's favor. I find Pit's recovery relatively easy to intercept off-stage and on-stage he isn't exactly threatening. He can't really take advantage of Dedede's weight as Pit isn't the greatest juggler and he lacks reliable kill options apart from fthrow near the ledge at very high percents. Arrows are meh for Gordo reflection and neither his nair nor his fair reflect them reliably since the initial individual hits do less than 2% damage.

Pit has alot of kill moves, but like Shiek and many others, he's one of those characters that have to work for it. The moment you get DeDeDe in the air, start using uairs and nairs to rack up damage. Power of Flight is one of those recoveries that you have to time right. Doesn't help the fact that DeDeDe is extremly heavy, helping with comboing him, like alot of heavyweight characters. Arrows for Pit can just hit Gordos and the come back bitting the King in the butt. Nair and Fair should not be used on Gordos at all. Plus, you can also gimp DeDeDe's recovery with GOs or just spike him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Have fun trying to gimp D3 when he's recovering low and autosnapping to the edge. It's not as easy as it looks. Pit, on the other hand, is going to have a helluva time without armor covering his ass. He's a flying hurtbox.

Other than that, Slav and Kenith pretty much summed it up. I think this is one of the few MUs where we actually have a slight advantage in. Same with vanilla Pit.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Have fun trying to gimp D3 when he's recovering low and autosnapping to the edge. It's not as easy as it looks. Pit, on the other hand, is going to have a helluva time without armor covering his ***. He's a flying hurtbox.

Other than that, Slav and Kenith pretty much summed it up. I think this is one of the few MUs where we actually have a slight advantage in. Same with vanilla Pit.

Smooth Criminal

It's always fun gimping D3, they always fall for it. Make them think I have no jumps after using an Arial Upperdash/Electroshock, then they come fast falling down, and jump on their heads...gone. With Pit, you just have to play smart, while with Dark Pit play aggressive.

 

[slavoslav]

Pit has alot of kill moves, but like Shiek and many others, he's one of those characters that have to work for it.

Sheik... one of those characters that have to work for it.

Sheik literally has a 50:50 chance at killing you off a grab and she's one of the best charactes in the game at getting those grabs (and at everything else really), her off-stage harassment game is stellar with numerous options to gimp her opponent, she has kill-confirms off of needles and an all-purpose kill move in bouncing fish which turns her into a flying near-invulnerable hitbox covering half the distance of Final Destination.
The notion that "Sheik can't kill" belongs to 2014 when the meta was babby and has no place in any discussion now.

The moment you get DeDeDe in the air, start using uairs and nairs to rack up damage.

I'll just use my numerous jumps and fast fall speed to bait it out.

Doesn't help the fact that DeDeDe is extremly heavy, helping with comboing him, like alot of heavyweight characters.

What guaranteed combos does Pit have that do more than like, I dunno, 30%? Let's be generous, 20%?I know down-throw into something-something is a thing at low-mid-percents but what else does he have? Mario, Luigi, Falcon, Kirby, Zss, Diddy, Sheik, Falcon and maybe several other characters can combo Dedede into oblivion, and I've played enough Pits to feel confident that his combo game doesn't even come close to any of these characters.

Arrows for Pit can just hit Gordos and the come back bitting the King in the butt.

I'm not going to use Gordos where I can't shield them in time if you try reflecting them with your laggy projectile lol. Not to mention that the height coverage of arrows is really shіtty. Lots of times the Gordo will just bounce over your arrow.

Nair and Fair should not be used on Gordos at all.

Yes, but due to the bouncing nature of Gordos an aerial out of a short-hop is the most intuitive and often best reflection option for most characters that lack a good projectile. Grounded moves really aren't that reliable when it comes to reflecting Gordos.

Plus, you can also gimp DeDeDe's recovery with GOs or just spike him.

We can just charge up jet hammer, walk towards you, release it and taunt afterwards and there's nothing you can do.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Sheik literally has a 50:50 chance at killing you off a grab and she's one of the best charactes in the game at getting those grabs (and at everything else really), her off-stage harassment game is stellar with numerous options to gimp her opponent, she has kill-confirms off of needles and an all-purpose kill move in bouncing fish which turns her into a flying near-invulnerable hitbox covering half the distance of Final Destination.
The notion that "Sheik can't kill" belongs to 2014 when the meta was babby and has no place in any discussion now.


I'll just use my numerous jumps and fast fall speed to bait it out.


What guaranteed combos does Pit have that do more than like, I dunno, 30%? Let's be generous, 20%?I know down-throw into something-something is a thing at low-mid-percents but what else does he have? Mario, Luigi, Falcon, Kirby, Zss, Diddy, Sheik, Falcon and maybe several other characters can combo Dedede into oblivion, and I've played enough Pits to feel confident that his combo game doesn't even come close to any of these characters.


I'm not going to use Gordos where I can't shield them in time if you try reflecting them with your laggy projectile lol. Not to mention that the height coverage of arrows is really shіtty. Lots of times the Gordo will just bounce over your arrow.


Yes, but due to the bouncing nature of Gordos an aerial out of a short-hop is the most intuitive and often best reflection option for most characters that lack a good projectile. Grounded moves really aren't that reliable when it comes to reflecting Gordos.


We can just charge up jet hammer, walk towards you, release it and taunt afterwards and there's nothing you can do.

Shiek still has problems killing no matter what. At paragon, Mr.R couldn't ko with 120%+ rage until Ally's Mario was around 220%.

Pit can still do that to

There's are tons of combos for Pit, Smash is about creativity after all. Grab, DThrow, UpSnash, 3-4 Uairs, Nair, and then a fair for example. Plus, have you played enough good Pits, not from For Glory?

And lots of times, arrows and GOs will hut the Gordos.

True, but what if you magically mess up a short hop?

After getting spiked and ko'd, you'd expect anyone with a brain and no lag to let you charge your hammer just to hit us and taunt? Come on now, noone is that stupid to fall for that trick.

 

[slavoslav]

There's are tons of combos for Pit, Smash is about creativity after all. Grab, DThrow, UpSnash, 3-4 Uairs, Nair, and then a fair for example.

That's not a combo. It's a string that might work on an opponent who refuses to enter inputs on his controller lol. Nothing beyond up smash is guaranteed.

Plus, have you played enough good Pits, not from For Glory?

I don't even play this game.

you'd expect anyone with a brain and no lag to let you charge your hammer just to hit us and taunt?

I've got a feeling it might work on you.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That's not a combo. It's a string that might work on an opponent who refuses to enter inputs on his controller lol. Nothing beyond up smash is guaranteed.


I don't even play this game.


I've got a feeling it might work on you.

I was right next to the guy playing DeDeDe, and walked off after I did it. He was ticked off at me because he couldn't get out of it. A string is something like Robin's down throw into side smash.

Then how would you know something without playing it in the first place(unless you've seen videos)?

Wow, how original coming from the guy who think DeDeDe could pull it off. Roy maybe, Ryu definitely, DeDeDe...not even a chance. How about you actually own the game before you try to back yourself up.

 

[slavoslav]

Do you honestly have this much trouble identifiying sarcasm or am I being trolled here.

And no, nothing beyond dthrow into upsmash is guaranteed.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Do you honestly have this much trouble identifiying sarcasm or am I being trolled here.

Depends, do you really think people will check if a comment's sarcastic when they're going to sleep?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's always fun gimping D3, they always fall for it. Make them think I have no jumps after using an Arial Upperdash/Electroshock, then they come fast falling down, and jump on their heads...gone. With Pit, you just have to play smart, while with Dark Pit play aggressive.

If you do Upperdash Arm like that you're eating a Gordo, a bair, or a string of fairs after your frames of armor are over, either resetting the situation to force you to the ledge or just straight up taking your stock. If done close to the edge, well, that's a free punish out of shield for us, assuming you don't cross us up and land far enough away where we can't get to you in time.

I will say that while Pit's recovery is exploitable, it's by no means bad. The aforementioned scenario of Upperdash Arm and scrambling to the edge puts Pit in a more advantageous position because he has the stage and you don't. It's just...that situation is unlikely, lol.

Smooth Criminal

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If you do Upperdash Arm like that you're eating a Gordo, a bair, or a string of fairs after your frames of armor are over, either resetting the situation to force you to the ledge or just straight up taking your stock. If done close to the edge, well, that's a free punish out of shield for us, assuming you don't cross us up and land far enough away where we can't get to you in time.

I will say that while Pit's recovery is exploitable, it's by no means bad. The aforementioned scenario of Upperdash Arm and scrambling to the edge puts Pit in a more advantageous position because he has the stage and you don't. It's just...that situation is unlikely, lol.

Smooth Criminal

Risk=Reward, and I've gotten alot of DeDeDe players to fall right in my trap. I even make it obvious to them...but nothing stops them for wanting to stage spike me, which is also fun to do to DeDeDe. If the situation is unlikely, them I'm a lucky Pit main.

Also, shouldn't you change "V is coming" since it already came?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...can we please get someone else from the Pit boards in here?

Smooth Criminal

 

[TMNTSSB4]

...can we please get someone else from the Pit boards in here?

Smooth Criminal

Noone there really cares for DeDeDe(heck not even I do), but we do need to get info on our MU thread(s). Just be glad someone came anyways since...we hate characters like him in the first place.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Noone there really cares for DeDeDe(heck not even I do), but we do need to get info on our MU thread(s). Just be glad someone came anyways since...we hate characters like him in the first place.

Whether you dislike a character or not has nothing to do with anything. We're gathering information on the MU vs. Pit, not gauging D3's infamy in other parts of the boards. This is seriously high school ****.

So please, either post something informative about Pit in this MU or go.

Smooth Criminal

 

[miniada]

as someone who is in training with pit I hate this matchup I think its65:35/ all pit has are combos but dedede can combo him to he has more range and kill power he is hard to kill he can't get gimped he can gimp pit this matchup I DESPISE however happy for you dedede mains you guys wanted a matchup he wins well heres two of them
EDIT: I don't understand how pit can win I mean sure he has combos........... combos that don't work on him that long unlike charecters like the mario bros who's combo games are R########Y good pit doesn't fall into this category not to mention dedede can combo him to also pits mobility isn't like the best in the game not to mention combos and mobility are pits only advantages and they are kind of null and void against dedede since he doesn't absolutely wreck him with those so yeah dedede wins 65:35/

 

[Thinktron]

Hmm this all confuses me, Pits just to fast to be hit by dedede i cant see how he wins

DEDEDE kills earlier and is heavy sure i will give you all that, but what else is in his favor .... better combos.. Really?? I don't think so pits combos might be read based at high percents but he sure has an easy time racking up damage and keeping away, and his forward smash is faster than any of D3 grounded moves, Gordo is useless because of pits N- air and to a lesser extent his reflector.

I know everyone here disagrees but i say its In pits favor Sorry.

Im up for a debate though best way to find am matchup is a huge discussion

 

[Axel311]

I'm very surprised people are saying this is in Dedede's favor.

I agree with above. Let's be honest folks, the sheer difference in frame data, speed and options in neutral to me means Dedede loses. Pit runs circles around us. Dedede can't keep up at all, and Pit has a great neutral. And he has good gordo reflect options to shut it down, and has some pretty good combos. Now Pit doesn't have the combo game of other characters to really take advantage of Dedede's hurtbox, but still good. I don't see how this is in Dedede's favor. Pit easily wins neutral, doesn't have to approach at all and Dedede does. Offstage is kind of a wash.

I don't think either can do much to each others' recoveries. With all that said though, Dedede can do some things. His disjoints outrange Pit's. Can edguard sometimes, but usually is too slow to get there. Dedede isn't too bad off, his bigger disjoints does give Pit fits but I still think in the end Pit's superior neutral and frame data is the biggest factor in defining this matchup.

I am going to say 55:45

 

[KeithTheGeek]

You guys are saying that like Pit is one of the fastest characters in the game, when he really isn't.

He has a decent combo game, but it's not particularly threatening to Dedede when he has trouble killing Dedede. And Pit can't really do anything to Dedede from a distance, because arrows simply aren't a huge threat.

On the flipside, as long as Dedede doesn't over commit to something I feel Pit has trouble approaching him. Pit does have a decent neutral and aerials, but Dedede has his disjoints over him. And Pit tends to struggle with Gordo in an edge-guarding situation.

I dunno, I think the fact is Pit is going to die sooner than Dedede will, and Pit doesn't have that many good ways to keep Dedede out. For the Dedede player it's the usual game of patience, except in this match-up we can actually do things.

 

[Thinktron]

Pit isn't exactly slow, his only slow move is upperdash arm, which is intended as a surprise kill move, if the pit has smarts he will not be hit to often, D3 does have tools to win this match-up i will admit, especially in aerials.

Pits killing options are much better than in brawl, his forward smash has so much range i'm surprised its as strong as it is, okay pits down smash inst great ill admit, but up smash more than makes up for it, if pit is smart with arrows, grabs and can get a few good reads D3 is in a tough spot

That being said I do see where everyone is coming from, while i don't agree with D3 winning the match-up, i wouldn't complain if it was finalized as even. Its a shame Pit has a small player-base considering hes such a solid character, i hope more pit mains come here and give some input.

 

[Wintropy]

Dedede's weird. Fundamentally there isn't really anything that Pit has to worry about, but if Pit does slip up, he can get hammered into next week. I know quite a few people (myself included way back when) swear blind that Dedede is a nightmare. It's by no means unwinnable, but it does require patience and a proper understanding of the matchup.

I think Dedede's biggest advantage is the fact that his disjoints beat out Pit's. Pit can space well with his aerial disjoints, but that's kinda difficult when Dedede's aerials have better range, hit harder and have relatively minor endlag. In addition, the fact that Dedede gets great reward off of a grab means Pit will seldom approach unless there's a very big opening to exploit. We can't afford to rush into this match. We have to be careful and force Dedede to play the angel's game.

Pit's combos are useful up to a point. Dash attack comes out quickly and can punish Dedede if his guard's dropped, which can combo into u-smash at low percents or f-air and u-air at higher. He's got the usual grab -> d-throw tricks (combos into u-smash and potentially all of his aerials), but Pit wants to stay out of Dedede's immediate space and hence a grab is seldom a realistic option except as a very coy punish. Dedede's big hurtbox should in theory make him combo food, but his floaty stature and ability to punish Pit with n-air or f-air means Pit won't get much of an opportunity to rack up too much damage in one fell swoop: it needs to be concise and consecutive. We need to go for small increments of damage whenever possible instead of going ham; since Dedede can survive well into the mid-hundreds and just gets stronger with rage, we need to do as much damage as possible before we even think of going for the kill.

Pit's arrows can be useful if used correctly; don't write them off just because their damage output is weak. If Pit's out of range (which, if he's clever, he will be) and Dedede is daft enough to try pressure him with Gordo, fullhop arrow can reflect it back with a bit of charge with relatively small risk involved. This is something Dark Pit can't do, so it's worth bearing that in mind. I'd still be wary of using Gordo in neutral, since it can be very easily intercepted and used as a punish in itself.

Quick tip: Pit's n-air can't reflect Gordo except on the last hit, because only the final hitbox does sufficient damage to reflect it. This doesn't really work on a Pit that even halfway understands what they're doing, because they'll just use something else to knock it back, but it does make for a good party trick if you're up against a fledgling angel~

Killing Dedede is...oy vey. Pit doesn't really have trouble killing, I just want to nip that misconception in the bud: he has trouble killing consistently. F-throw, f-smash, u-smash, tipper f-tilt and tipper b-air can kill pretty neatly in theory, but with Dedede's weight and the aforementioned difficulty of getting any of these hits to land, execution doesn't match up to theory. We want to make sure Dedede is reasonably certain to die before we can go for the kill confirm, so that means we need to rack up as much damage as possible whilst minimising it ourselves. I usually wait for Dedede to drop his guard and then go for fresh f-throw at the edge or, if I can condition Dedede to go aggro, bait an unsafe move out and then punish it with a sweetspot b-air. If we can survive to the extent that we've got more damage on you than you have on us, we can bait the penguin out and wait to exploit the chink in Dedede's armour. It isn't ideal, but it's serviceable.

The issue here is that Pit can die at any time if Dedede connects a hit, so even a tiny mistake can be fatal if Dedede gets momentum going. With momentum on his side, Dedede can become an impregnable stonewall and toss Pit about like a tiny winged ping-pong ball - especially since Pit has difficult landing, so the threat of u-air juggles can force us to go for the ledge instead of trying to come back down on-stage. Guardian Orbitars don't present nearly as much of a threat as they seem to in theory, since the frame data is disgusting: by the time it's deactivated, Dedede can just do what he wants to us. I don't recommend it, personally, it isn't something you need to worry about.

Dedede's very difficult to edgeguard. His multiple jumps and invincible recovery means he's probably going to get back to the stage if he can get momentum going, plus his aerials can challenge anything Pit serves at him. If Pit's fast to react and Dedede's at high percents, he can pressure Dedede off-stage with f-air strings, but d-air / b-air spikes are very difficult to connect safely. I think he's got an easier time edgeguarding us, since Gordos can be a bit of a hassle and walkoff n-air / f-air can force us to weave about, but Pit's recovery means he can just go deep and recover under the stage without much to worry about.

That said - and this is the main reason why I don't write this off as a clear win in Dedede's favour - there is a fundamental flaw in Dedede's gameplan: his disadvantage stage is very poor. Pit may get battered about if he makes a mistake and he can't get too intense for fear of his combos being beaten back, but if we can get momentum going and condition Dedede to use unsafe tactics, we can keep the pressure on just by virtue of our talent for playing on reaction and varied toolkit. We can bait the approach with retreating f-air and shorthop d-air, or even fullhop arrows from a distance, since Dedede's only projectile can be used to punish him and he will ultimately have to come to us if we just pester him from a distance. If we can find an opening and exploit it, we can get decent mileage out of n-air (a missed tech from it can setup for a dash attack or jablock) and d-air (combos into itself and can kill at high percents). While we can't get too brash with f-air strings and u-air juggles, we can definitely put the hurt on if we force Dedede to come for us. Pit may be weak and small, but he's wiry and we know how to play hit 'n' run if it means we can seal the stock eventually. We will play for the big picture, because that's the only way we can safely win.

It's a difficult matchup in theory, but it's very possible for Pit to win just because his playstyle means he benefits from good fundamentals. We just can't afford to make too many stupid mistakes or we will get punished hard for it. I'm gonna say it's even, maybe slightly in Dedede's favour because of his ability to end the stock with a good read, but I don't think it's a nightmare for either party.

EDIT: I don't really consider matchup ratios very often, but for the sake of community data, I'm gonna say it's 55:45 to Dedede.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Yeah, seems about right. I think Dedede has the advantage in this match-up but it's not like...an overwhelming advantage. There's a lot here to dig through but I don't really disagree with any of it. I will say, I never specifically said Pit had trouble killing in general, but just against Dedede. We have the right combination of features to make kills hard for most characters in general.

And "be wary of using Gordo in neutral" might as well be the Dedede's board's motto, lol.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, seems about right. I think Dedede has the advantage in this match-up but it's not like...an overwhelming advantage. There's a lot here to dig through but I don't really disagree with any of it. I will say, I never specifically said Pit had trouble killing in general, but just against Dedede. We have the right combination of features to make kills hard for most characters in general.

And "be wary of using Gordo in neutral" might as well be the Dedede's board's motto, lol.

Oh yeah, I wasn't referring explicitly to you when I mentioned killing. I just wanted to refer to it because it's a common (mis)conception that people have about the Pits.

I don't think Pit has any really great or unwinnable matchups, but I do think Dedede is one of his most difficult. If you don't come in prepared, you're gonna get beaten.

 

[shrooby]

Okay so the Pits are done.
50:50

Now it's time for Ike!
He's gotten a lot of buffs, hasn't he? Quite the force to be reckoned with now.
Discuss!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

ffs, Pit's MU is not even. At all. Hell I'd be ok if you decided that Pit ultimately won the MU instead of this. Even MU = identical everything, which is more or less what a ditto is. This ruling seems like an act of diplomacy instead of an informed opinion.

I will never understand these boards.

Smooth Criminal