Re-Electing President Obama in 2012

[TheOriginalSmasher]

http://bigjournalism.com/newsbusters/2010/05/14/newsbusted-only-39-would-re-elect-obama/

Personally, I wouldn't re-elect him, because, in my opinion, he is doing horrid right now.

As of May 14th, only 39% would re-elect President Obama in 2012. Would you re-elect him? Discuss.


(This is my first post as far as the Debate Hall, If I am doing something wrong, Please correct me. Thanks)

-TheOriginalSmasher
-TheOS

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

If you wish to know if you are doing something wrong go here.

As for my post related to the debate I do not wish to get into this debate without asking something. Where do you get your political info?

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

I am aware of the forum rules, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something and maybe one of you could correct me.

And as far as my political info, did you see my link in the OP?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I see the link, I am asking want news channel/news paper do you regularly get you info from? (My fault should of clarified.)

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Mostly just http://www.bigjournalism.com . I had an article in Times awhile ago discussing this, but I seem to have lost it. I just got accepted into here today, so I didn't think to keep it.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

A couple things:

1. Be a bit more confident.

2. I wouldn't, as he has done a horrible job. I want to see the reasonons supporting Obama *coughsaltcoughcough*

 

[Kirbyoshi]

Yeah, someone like Salt/Guest/Shado/whoever should get in here and DA or something, because I doubt many people would re-elect Obama, even liberals.

 

[rvkevin]

Yeah, someone like Salt/Guest/Shado/whoever should get in here and DA or something, because I doubt many people would re-elect Obama, even liberals.

Don't forget, you need to look at the alternative. If its Obama v Palin in 2012, I would pick Obama in a second. It may be the case that there are better candidates for the Democratic party, but as far as re-election goes, I don't see why not.

To anyone saying he's done a horrible job, what would you consider his major faults?

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Don't forget, you need to look at the alternative. If its Obama v Palin in 2012, I would pick Obama in a second. It may be the case that there are better candidates for the Democratic party, but as far as re-election goes, I don't see why not.

To anyone saying he's done a horrible job, what would you consider his major faults?

That is negotionable in my book. The fact that, in my opinion, Obama has already tried and failed, supports the idea to give someone else the role of president. Preferably McCain.

 

[Kirbyoshi]

imo, Huckabee should get another chance to get the nomination. He's got more public exposure now from his TV show.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Don't forget, you need to look at the alternative. If its Obama v Palin in 2012, I would pick Obama in a second. It may be the case that there are better candidates for the Democratic party, but as far as re-election goes, I don't see why not.

I HIGHLY doubt Palin will make i to that last 2 candidates.

To anyone saying he's done a horrible job, what would you consider his major faults?

He's done a horrible job by doing nothing.

Yeah, someone like Salt/Guest/Shado/whoever should get in here and DA or something, because I doubt many people would re-elect Obama, even liberals.

-_- those are all the same person.

 

[Deleted member]

He's done a horrible job by doing nothing.

Healthcare reform doesn't count or something?

 

[rvkevin]

The fact that, in my opinion, Obama has already tried and failed, supports the idea to give someone else the role of president. Preferably McCain.

I disagree. The war, the economy, etc. are major issues. There may not be a "successful" solution, only gradations of success. Just because our expectations exceeded Obama's performance does not mean that the opponent's will necessarily be better. We need to evaluate each plan accordingly and then decide from that. As for McCain, he isn't getting any younger, and his vice-presidential pick will be even more important the second time around.

 

[Crazy Cloud]

I think that he's doing just what he promised he would. Things take time, and people assume that he would be able to snap his fingers things would happen. Not going to happen, especially in politics.

In my opinion, the most important thing that he promised was the health care reform. The major hurdle was getting the main bill passed. Some of you may be too young to remember (I was only 4 - 5 when this happened), but there was also another president that tried to reform our health care. Bill Clinton [1]. Even at the time of his health care reform plan, we were the only first world country to have not have a universal health care format. It's not easy to change something that's as large of a part of our economy as health care. However, Obama succeeded, and there's already results. The full results of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will be seen in four years for the average person's health insurance [2]. Election Promise - Check.

He's already been withdrawing droops from Iraq, as he promised. While it wasn't as swift as nixon's promise of a secret plan to end the Vietnam War [3][4], but progress has been made. At the height of the surge during bush's presidency of the war, there were 160,000 - 162,000 troops in Iraq [5]. McCain campaigned that we'd have "won" the Iraq war by 2013. That most of our troops would be withdrawn, with a significantly smaller amount of troops left [6]. While under Obama, we didn't "win" the war, the other two statements made by McCain have been matched. Three years sooner [7]. As of today, there are only 50,000 troops in Iraq, left to train the Iraq forces. In a year, they are also going to be withdrawn.

So the two cornerstones promised in Obama's first term have been met. I think that it is still soon to decide if he deserves a second term or not. But I think he's well on his way to proving he does.

[1] Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_1993
[2] Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
[3] Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon
[4] Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_promise#Case_study:_Richard_Nixon.27s_Election_promises
[5] President Obama's Winning Streak http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081904771.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
[6] McCain : Iraq War can be won by 2013 - http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2008/05/mccain-outlines-troop-withdraw.html
[7] Iraq withdrawal timeline - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/7954153/Iraq-withdrawal-a-timeline.html

 

[Jam Stunna]

Isn't it way too early to legitimately bring this up? Alot can happen in two years.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

I disagree. The war, the economy, etc. are major issues. There may not be a "successful" solution, only gradations of success. Just because our expectations exceeded Obama's performance does not mean that the opponent's will necessarily be better. We need to evaluate each plan accordingly and then decide from that. As for McCain, he isn't getting any younger, and his vice-presidential pick will be even more important the second time around.

True, but who is getting younger? O_O

I only point out McCain, not nessecarily because he was the better choice, but because he was the ONLY other choice. If (almost) anyone else stepped in to the election, I would have voted for them most likely.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I only point out McCain, not nessecarily because he was the better choice, but because he was the ONLY other choice. If (almost) anyone else stepped in to the election, I would have voted for them most likely.

Even Palin?

 

[Dre89]

Can I just ask, what has Obama done that is so bad?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Can I just ask, what has Obama done that is so bad?

The reason why he's considered bad is that he hasn't done much (at least nothing significant enough to be remembered) in times like this.

 

[Dre89]

What do the people think of his advocacy of partial birth abortion?

 

[Deleted member]

The reason why he's considered bad is that he hasn't done much (at least nothing significant enough to be remembered) in times like this.

You really are not seeing the importance of the Health Care bill.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

You really are not seeing the importance of the Health Care bill.

Maybe that was the wrong wording. However, there's still the economy, the war in iraq, gas...

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Even Palin?

...Got me there. Although, how bad is Palin really? She gets most of her (bad) reputation from her daughter.


Also, @The Paprika Killer, Refrain from having sigs please.

 

[Crimson King]

Can I just ask, what has Obama done that is so bad?

Simple: Nothing. Obama was promised as the media messiah who would give us change. Let's see where that change is:
- Gay Marriage still illegal as it was under Bush
- Troops still in Iraq at the moment
- Economy still hurting the poor, while the rich get richer
- Still no UHC

While I don't agree with everything on that list, his promises were just not met. I mean to compare, by the end of his first term, Bush at least brought Democracy to Iraq and caught Saddam Hussein. Obama has nothing significant on his record.

You really are not seeing the importance of the Health Care bill.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I like how you say importance because it will be the single thing that will catastrophically screw us over worse than welfare and social security ever did. While it's not as encompassing as Obama hoped, it's going to do a lot of damage as you'll have to increase taxes to fund it long term, and it'll still cause a huge deficit when you try to cover 300+ million people.

Furthermore, FDR enacted Welfare and Social Security programs not as permanent things but as temporary programs for no more than a few years. No president had the balls to cut it, but it's draining our funding across the board. Add in the 21st century Police mentality, and you have a super drain on an already broke budget.

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

Simple: Nothing. Obama was promised as the media messiah who would give us change. Let's see where that change is:
- Gay Marriage still illegal as it was under Bush
- Troops still in Iraq at the moment
- Economy still hurting the poor, while the rich get richer
- Still no UHC

While I don't agree with everything on that list, his promises were just not met. I mean to compare, by the end of his first term, Bush at least brought Democracy to Iraq and caught Saddam Hussein. Obama has nothing significant on his record.

This x1000.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Simple: Nothing. Obama was promised as the media messiah who would give us change. Let's see where that change is:
- Gay Marriage still illegal as it was under Bush
- Troops still in Iraq at the moment
- Economy still hurting the poor, while the rich get richer
- Still no UHC

While I don't agree with everything on that list, his promises were just not met. I mean to compare, by the end of his first term, Bush at least brought Democracy to Iraq and caught Saddam Hussein. Obama has nothing significant on his record.

This x1000.

He's done a horrible job by doing nothing.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/

On this website they have tracked all of the promises he has made and if he has keep them. or not. They are very transparent about there sources. He has only broken 22 out of his 506 promises now some of them he is still working on (240) and 3 of them have not been rated. All thing considered especially when comparing him with other politicians he actuarially is not doing that bad of a job. I would vote for him in 2012, now is he perfect? No. Did he break some of his promises, absolutely no human could keep all of there promises and be in Washington the two just do not mix. Could he do better? Yes. Do I agree with every thing he does? No. My point is that over all he is not doing as bad as every one makes him out to be and he deserves a little slack. Anyway just throwing something out there I am trying to avoid this debate my self.

Isn't it way too early to legitimately bring this up? Alot can happen in two years.

I can agree with this statement.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

It's nice when the big boys post...

Simple: Nothing. Obama was promised as the media messiah who would give us change. Let's see where that change is:
- Gay Marriage still illegal as it was under Bush
- Troops still in Iraq at the moment
- Economy still hurting the poor, while the rich get richer
- Still no UHC

While I don't agree with everything on that list, his promises were just not met. I mean to compare, by the end of his first term, Bush at least brought Democracy to Iraq and caught Saddam Hussein. Obama has nothing significant on his record.

This right hurr...

You know, I will openly admit that I was one of the ones who were guilty of doing something mentioned in a Boondocks episode (Google it, obv. .) When he came to Tech in 2007 iirc, I was immediately sold. He even shook my hand. *pause, nh*

So, when braced the six hour line @ the Government Center in Atlanta on Halloween of 2008, I expected all of this, and much more.

Life is full of abject disappointment, no?

However, I couldn't say that warrants him getting the boot in 2012. Especially if you have someone like Palin considering to run. Yeah, it's trite, but sometimes voting is picking the lesser of two evils. So, if faced with that decision, I would likely vote for him again.

Then, we could look @ fixing the voting system in America, but that's another story.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I like how you say importance because it will be the single thing that will catastrophically screw us over worse than welfare and social security ever did. While it's not as encompassing as Obama hoped, it's going to do a lot of damage as you'll have to increase taxes to fund it long term, and it'll still cause a huge deficit when you try to cover 300+ million people.

Furthermore, FDR enacted Welfare and Social Security programs not as permanent things but as temporary programs for no more than a few years. No president had the balls to cut it, but it's draining our funding across the board. Add in the 21st century Police mentality, and you have a super drain on an already broke budget.

As for the first part, if someone told me that the recession would:

1. Cut all programs you used in your daily life to not raise taxes (a simplification here, but bear with me), OR
2. Raise taxes and keep the programs.

I would go with the latter. Sometimes, life is about sacrifice, and that is one I would be willing to make. Even with my going on the job market (ono).

I still see the good in Social Security though, and it probably could be kept if we actually focused on the large 800 pound gorilla: defense spending. I worked for a defense contractor, and it is kind of ridiculous what the U.S. will pay for.

Trufax, there are likely other methods to reduce spending as well, but you gotta start with the big guns first IMHO.

 

[Deleted member]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I like how you say importance because it will be the single thing that will catastrophically screw us over worse than welfare and social security ever did. While it's not as encompassing as Obama hoped, it's going to do a lot of damage as you'll have to increase taxes to fund it long term, and it'll still cause a huge deficit when you try to cover 300+ million people.

Yes and every single other western country has very high taxes. You're also not taking into account that the actual healthcare insurance will get cheaper.

[ugh, I really need to do something about my sig]

 

[blazedaces]

Anyone notice that the people supporting Obama have sources... while everyone bashing him has none.

I know everyone has an opinion on Obama and nothing on this green earth will change their minds... but from a strictly debate-hall, non-partisan viewpoint the Obama supporters win this debate.

-blazed

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

You can win in the debate hall?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

You can win in the debate hall?

From what I have seen (I am not a reliable source so I could be wrong.) It is more like them being ahead of you in a race with no finish line. Yes, there is "winning", but the game will not end any time soon.

 

[Crimson King]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/

On this website they have tracked all of the promises he has made and if he has keep them. or not. They are very transparent about there sources. He has only broken 22 out of his 506 promises now some of them he is still working on (240) and 3 of them have not been rated. All thing considered especially when comparing him with other politicians he actuarially is not doing that bad of a job. I would vote for him in 2012, now is he perfect? No. Did he break some of his promises, absolutely no human could keep all of there promises and be in Washington the two just do not mix. Could he do better? Yes. Do I agree with every thing he does? No. My point is that over all he is not doing as bad as every one makes him out to be and he deserves a little slack. Anyway just throwing something out there I am trying to avoid this debate my self.

So, you are going to vote for someone you don't agree with, and who has broken problems, because? That's just an irrational argument.

As for the first part, if someone told me that the recession would:

1. Cut all programs you used in your daily life to not raise taxes (a simplification here, but bear with me), OR
2. Raise taxes and keep the programs.

I would go with the latter. Sometimes, life is about sacrifice, and that is one I would be willing to make. Even with my going on the job market (ono).

I still see the good in Social Security though, and it probably could be kept if we actually focused on the large 800 pound gorilla: defense spending. I worked for a defense contractor, and it is kind of ridiculous what the U.S. will pay for.

Trufax, there are likely other methods to reduce spending as well, but you gotta start with the big guns first IMHO.

Yes and every single other western country has very high taxes. You're also not taking into account that the actual healthcare insurance will get cheaper.

[ugh, I really need to do something about my sig]

These two address the same issue. By raising taxes "because all other western countries" do it, we essentially stop being what makes American. Yes, Canada has UHC that works. They also have a 10th of our population and even less of our massive immigration problem. China and India also have UHC, but their ratio of poor-to-rich is even more off-kilter than ours.

The fact is by accepting that taxes are okay to be high as long as others are okay is accepting that lowering your standard of living is okay as long as everyone else is equal. People aren't equal, and that myth is perpetuated by the media daily. To TPK, healthcare will only be theoretically cheaper, like raising the minimum wage makes wages theoretically higher. Yes, it'll be set to a lower value to where everyone can afford it, but it will also reduce our standard of high medical care. Doctors in the US don't move to India for better wages, it's the opposite. I've spoken to plenty doctors who fear this change because it means a higher premium on their malpractice insurance and they make even less than they already do (rich doctors take YEARS to actually come about). Think about this, you go to school for 8 years of hard education, become an intern, making barely minimum wage, then eventually work as a resident in deep, deep debt. Anytime you even give some the wrong dosage of aspirin, you can be sued and pushed further into debt or have your license revoked. What's the reward for being a doctor when that eventual payoff is reduced? These people are intelligent, so they can do other jobs, but medicine gives them the best risk versus reward (saving people + eventual high wages after years and years of debt).

 

[GoldShadow]

Come on guys, this is the PG, let's keep the debating between DHers to a minimum

Also,

Anyone notice that the people supporting Obama have sources... while everyone bashing him has none.

I think this says more about the debater(s) than it does about Obama.

 

[Crimson King]

Whoops... I could have sworn it said DH. My bad. Carry on.

 

[Deleted member]

[was about to put up a post here]
Whoops

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

*finishes post* *about to hit "new post" button* *sees goldshadow's post* FFFFFFFFF.....

 

[blazedaces]

Also,
I think this says more about the debater(s) than it does about Obama.

Maybe I sidetracked it a bit with the word "win"...

But this was actually my central point. I didn't contribute to the debate because this is the PG, and I'm supposed to be offering advice. I guess I could have made myself more clear.

Your debate point of view would look more professional/acceptable/defendable if you provide evidence to support it.

With that being said, I've heard great arguments with evidence outside the debate hall both bashing Obama and supporting him... neither answer is the "right" answer. Personally I think these are the best debates. So I'm challenging you all, prove your side of the story, don't just say which side you prefer...

-blazed

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

So, you are going to vote for someone you don't agree with, and who has broken problems, because? That's just an irrational argument.

I do not agree with everything he does. Ture. However I do not agree with the alternitives ether.

 

[Crimson King]

I do not agree with everything he does. Ture. However I do not agree with the alternitives ether.

Last post, I swear: don't vote.

Abstaining is your way of saying I disagree with the system. My state chose John McCain. All votes for him were worthless once he conceded. Any votes for Obama didn't help get him elected. In this instance, their opinions didn't matter.

PM me for direct replies.

 

[thegreatkazoo]

Last post, I swear: don't vote.

Abstaining is your way of saying I disagree with the system. My state chose John McCain. All votes for him were worthless once he conceded. Any votes for Obama didn't help get him elected. In this instance, their opinions didn't matter.

PM me for direct replies.

Well, I mentioned a slightly more constructive way to fix it: Change the system. A thread like Aesir's I thought was pretty constructive.