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Rate my mewtwo!

Wilhelmsan

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
1,006
Location
Austin, TX
On a scale of 1 to Taj, you're about a 6 or 7

BTW I caught the upthrow->confusion, it was wonderful.

Who's Falco is that?
 

quak

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
2,265
Location
Bay Area, Cali
pretty abstract, but you definatly know how it's done, son

nice reads

Best combo was the one with upthrow confusion on second stock :p

you got a good mewtwo, and you know it :laugh:

Who's Falco is that?
It says it on youtube! BTW the falco's skill is questionable, it looks like he has somewhat fast hands, but he doesn't play smart....at all.
 

LIL_Jay-Z

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Messages
5
KOOL mewtwo, you did nice job edgeguarding and using shadow balls at the right time.
LOL everyone seems to notice upthrow-->confusion

nice work =)
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
o.o""" im a little surprised with the comments

(with all respect for forwards falco.... i really do have lots of respect for forward)

but.....
em....
heres my response ....

to be nitpicky....

1) short hop teleports were not close to the ground at all (except for one of them)
2) wavedashes are not smooth =/
3) distracting suicide
4) one of ur wavedash turned into a roll...
5) poor spacing when edgeguarding
6) using nair to recover to the platform = bad (i think u tried this at least 6 times and a good amount of times you got hit by an aerial instead ._.")
7) several fair approaches that miss



and your opponent was noticably terrible... severely terrible, the falco's wavedash goes off the ground, and he gets sheild grabbed lots of times. ><


em..

peace <3 x.x
 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
1) Your right, I'm really bad at using Mew2's teleport in general, so to be safe I just go a little higher off the ground so I don't mess up.
2) Really? For the most part I thought they were good, I got fast ones when I needed them, and shorter ones when necessary *shrugs*
3) lol
4) Actually 2 of them >.<
5) There was only one ledge guard that I messed up, and that was with the d-smash. I would like to have done the super ultra ninja cookies after the d smash but I mess that up a lot, so I didn't go for it.
6) Ya, most of the time I got hit, it would have been safer to just go for the ledge, but it's just a friendly so my mind is more focused on attacking that getting to a safe spot. No jons tho, I know Taj would have gone to the ledge and owned them afterwards, eh.
7) Probably, f-air isn't even that good of an approach, I was probably just going for combos with it.

Enough with being nit-picky, you have to admit, my combos are pretty unique ;)
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
Forward:

the upthrow to confusion IS very original ^^ and i was very impressed when you first brought it up XD. hehehehe

but other combos you did connected because your opponent didnt know how to tech or DI.

Upthrow to double fair should never connect ><


Dguy:

falco is one of mewtwo's worst enemies, lasers screw mewtwo up big big time. in this match up, falco can be very oppressive leaving mewtwo with barely any options =/



and Yes, i agree with rapid_assasin regarding low tiers.

lol... pichu is cake, easy to edgeguard, easy upthrow kills. not difficult to space. and mewtwo on the stage is much faster than pichu lol
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
Airo, I find lasers to be no real problem at all. It is not really character specific in dealing with them either. It is more of how you handle it in general. I agree that if you sit there and get hit by laser after laser, it will be quite problematic. The simple answer is to not let yourself get hit repeatedly by lasers.

Short Hop Laser is a tactic designed to give the Falco control over the match. To beat this tactic, all you have to do is not let the Falco maintain control.

If you remain stationary and shield each projectile, and powershield with a decent level of effectiveness, then the Falco will be forced to approach you, which is exactly the opposite of what he was trying to achieve.

One can also approach the Falco. Granted, this is what the Falco wants you to do, Mewtwo has some of the best options for doing this. He has excellent horizontal movement in the air. This will allow you to get to the Falco while remaining above the lasers usually with few jumps. What you do when you get to the Falco is completely up to the player. Use your best discretion when deciding what to do.

I have played against the best Falcos in Florida and while they can be quite difficult, short hop laser is nothing that cannot be countered.

Peace.
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
Airo, I find lasers to be no real problem at all. It is not really character specific in dealing with them either. It is more of how you handle it in general. I agree that if you sit there and get hit by laser after laser, it will be quite problematic. The simple answer is to not let yourself get hit repeatedly by lasers.

Short Hop Laser is a tactic designed to give the Falco control over the match. To beat this tactic, all you have to do is not let the Falco maintain control.

If you remain stationary and shield each projectile, and powershield with a decent level of effectiveness, then the Falco will be forced to approach you, which is exactly the opposite of what he was trying to achieve.

One can also approach the Falco. Granted, this is what the Falco wants you to do, Mewtwo has some of the best options for doing this. He has excellent horizontal movement in the air. This will allow you to get to the Falco while remaining above the lasers usually with few jumps. What you do when you get to the Falco is completely up to the player. Use your best discretion when deciding what to do.

I have played against the best Falcos in Florida and while they can be quite difficult, short hop laser is nothing that cannot be countered.

Peace.
falco massively counters mewtwo

reasons:

- mewtwo is 100% ground approach
- falco laser kills all ground approaches

mewtwo looses.
as for powershielding.... that option isnt dependable unless you have robotic reflexes.
it doesnt make a difference if you manage to powershield everyone once in many lasers.

and so what if you manage to powershield enough to annoy him...
powershield doesnt combo into anything, you still have no approach.

and only silly falcos would suddenly decide to stop using lasers just because you reflect a few.

adding to reasoning:
the only reason why mewtwo has chance in winning any match is because he has a good wavedash.
lasers completely obliterates your option of wavedashing.
without wavedash, mewtwo has next to no mindgames.
with no mindgames............ em....... lets stop here
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
I disagree with the idea that Mewtwo has only ground approaches. Neutral air is an incredible approach when used correctly and it can even be spaced to where you will not get shield grabbed even if they shield it.

A Falco with short hop laser will try and get you to approach him. That is the entire purpose of short hop laser. If the Falco fails in this, and can inflict no damage, he may or may not try something else.

Granted, there is the occasional Falco who will be ridiculously persistent and continue to short hop laser with no end. It is still a matter of who is more persistent. The Mewtwo could camp on the ledge if he really wanted to.

A Falco would not stop using shl just because you reflect a few. A Falco would stop using shl if it was getting him absolutely nowhere in the fight. Power shielding simply hurts the Falco's confidence a bit, it is by no means an end all by itself.

I do agree that wave dashing is of absolute phenomenal necessity for mindgames. Without it, Mewtwo does indeed have none. However, that is not to say that because of this, every single aerial approach is useless. Aerial approaches while a Falco is using short hop laser can be very tricky as a good Falco can react quickly to your approach. When you are approaching, it is a matter of outmaneuvering. Unfortunately, there is no sure fire way of doing it every time. You have to correctly predict what the Falco will do each time and react accordingly, otherwise you will get hit.

Short hop laser aside, Falco gets slaughtered by Mewtwo in close combat. His weight is perfect for nearly every one of Mewtwo's combos.

Peace.
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
I disagree with the idea that Mewtwo has only ground approaches. Neutral air is an incredible approach when used correctly and it can even be spaced to where you will not get shield grabbed even if they shield it.
neutral air approach = free hit for falco
this doesnt need explaining

A Falco with short hop laser will try and get you to approach him. That is the entire purpose of short hop laser. If the Falco fails in this, and can inflict no damage, he may or may not try something else.

Granted, there is the occasional Falco who will be ridiculously persistent and continue to short hop laser with no end. It is still a matter of who is more persistent. The Mewtwo could camp on the ledge if he really wanted to.

A Falco would not stop using shl just because you reflect a few. A Falco would stop using shl if it was getting him absolutely nowhere in the fight. Power shielding simply hurts the Falco's confidence a bit, it is by no means an end all by itself.
no.. the point of short hop laser is not to get you to approach him.
falcos laser is definitely not a camping tool.

shorthop laser IS falco's approach.

Cow... the laser is a bloody shield stunner than leads into grabs and loads of other combos.
lets not forget that falco combos have no problem connecting on mewtwo

camping on ledge = free edgeguard for falco = suicide


I do agree that wave dashing is of absolute phenomenal necessity for mindgames. Without it, Mewtwo does indeed have none. However, that is not to say that because of this, every single aerial approach is useless. Aerial approaches while a Falco is using short hop laser can be very tricky as a good Falco can react quickly to your approach. When you are approaching, it is a matter of outmaneuvering. Unfortunately, there is no sure fire way of doing it every time. You have to correctly predict what the Falco will do each time and react accordingly, otherwise you will get hit.


Short hop laser aside, Falco gets slaughtered by Mewtwo in close combat. His weight is perfect for nearly every one of Mewtwo's combos.

Peace.
mewtwo doesnt slaughter falco at close combat.
in reality, lots of mewtwo combo that seems to connect, disconnects with good DI.

lets also not forget that falco pillars rip on mewtwo endlessly.

if the falco has no lasers. falco is just about even with mewtwo.
 

DelxDoom

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 9, 2006
Messages
1,555
So what we need to do against teh Falco is
1) camp on ledge and do wall techs and smash DI those pesky Dairs
2) use confusion when close enough
3) tele

and only the 3rd option is (relatively) easy >.>
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
I would say that neutral air is no free hit at all. Sure, if you do something stupid, you will get predicted and punished, but that is pretty much the same with any move.

While Falco does approach with short hop laser, I would not say that that is the only use for short hop laser.

Many, many Falcos like to bounce around and do short hop laser while you try and get to them to stop them from doing it. They will continue to bounce around with it trying to continue hitting you. When you get close, they will then hit you.

If you are using the shield as the main defense against the short hop laser, then you must definitely be certain to do something else before the Falco gets within range. I do recommend not using the shield method much though. A stationary opponent is quite possibly the easiest one to fight against. I personally prefer to approach the Falco.

I don't really recommend camping the ledge, as it is easy to be edge guarded. I was just throwing that out as a possible option. There are things that can be done with ledge camping though.

In close combat, there are plenty of things that can be directionally influenced out of, but overall, Mewtwo has all the moves needed to beat a Falco. I have not found Falco Pillaring to be anything significantly difficult to deal with. That could be simply because my opponents find it very difficult to get it started on me, so I don't really know for sure. Mewtwo can also take extreme advantage of how Falco gets back on the stage.

I don't think one should consider how Falco would fair without lasers since Falco has them.

I don't think we will end up agreeing on either of the points we are making. We have each played against different people and as such, have developed different ideas about how each character fairs against our own. Just want to say that it is nice to have a good discussion in the Mewtwo section for once. :cool:

Peace.
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
i appreciate you being modest and providing a controlled debate.

but..

it is universally agreed that falco devastatingly counters mewtwo.


pardon me, but
to continue

the main purpose of falco's laser ARE for approaches.
they dont just bounch around and wait for you to attack.
if you see them doing retreating lasers, it is because they are managing their spacings, not because they are camping. with shorthop lasers in proper spacings, they open themselves opportunities for risk-free attacks.

theres nothing mewtwo can do about it too.

falcos are extremely offensive characters. they dont wait for opportunies by camping. they FORCE you into giving them opportunities.

its not like you mewtwo can try to stop the lasers. the thing is... mewtwo cant.

frankly, shield IS the only option mewtwo has.
going air is 100% suicide. nair has no priority. Not that you cant occasionally use it once in every few matches, but you definately cant DEPEND on it for approaches.

mewtwo certainly has a few combos that falco cant DI out of. but those combos dont rip that high, while falcos basic pillars or other simple throw combos can rip damage faster than you do.

mewtwo certainly SHOULD be approaching the falco. but mewtwo approaching by air is certainly suicide.

for mewtwo, the most generally concluded solution is to wavedash out of shield between the lasers and wait patiently for opportunities.

so in conclusion, the only reason mewtwo would win is if the falco doesnt know how to space his retreating lasers and laser chases.

as for falco without lasers.... i can confidently conclude that mewtwo goes about even with him. ive faught a falco without laser under my request.

without lasers, falco still has a very dependable moveset to use on mewtwo.

-----

you have to see that this is what a falco IS:

a bird that is constantly managing its spacing while lasers rapidly fire at you.

and once a laser hits you/your shield and the spacing spacing between you and him is favorable, mewtwo gets ripped apart.
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
theoretically, its not toooo far from truth.

in reality, mewtwo is usually capable of putting up a very good fight.
Agreed. I have been playing only Mewtwo at every tourney I have ever been to(And that is a lot of tourneys) Even against the very hardest matchups that Mewtwo can have, I never changed to another character that was better suited for the match. I simply tried to work with what I had. A ton of people who have never seen a good Mewtwo definitely come away surprised and impressed. It is the coolest feeling ever to be playing a match and some random people in the back that are watching are like "Woah, look at that Mewtwo"

Back to the discussion. It is universally agreed that Falco beats Mewtwo overall. That is a good reason for there being such a distance in the tier list between them. I think I should clarify a bit though. I would not necessarily say Mewtwo beats Falco just in that sense. I was meaning more of Mewtwo having an easier time against Falco than most of his other matchups. This of course could simply be due to me having a few odd opponents who are very good with some of the lesser played characters. For example, I play against an ungodly skilled Ness player on a relatively regular basis and that has given me a great respect for all Ness players.

Peace.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I didn't read any other posts in this topic.

@ forward, a few things I noticed.

-When I saw you backthrow KO falco from the middle of the stage at 108% I was salivating at my keyboard to play this guy. Reminds me of when I played NEO's captain falcon and he survived my backthrow at the very edge of FD at 180%. Same with the lack of DI for upthrow combos.

-upthrow confusion is a hot combo lolol

couple laggy teleports, but that's just splitting hairs. looks pretty sweet overall. Would be a tad sweeter if falco knew how to DI mewtwo's throws.
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
back at Dguy

well... ive played a good amount of tournament leveled falcos (meaning falcos in the winners brackets, not looser brackets)

and its in my observation that some of those falcos are easy to destroy, even though they are no noobs at all.

so... its quite apparent to me that mewtwo's surprise factor does half of the winning (or putting up a good fight) in tournament matches.

my crewmate's falco obliterates me.

can it be concluded that falco's can easily destroy mewtwo if they know how to take advantage of what they have?
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
Indeed, the surprise factor will play a major role in the effectiveness, especially if you are good(And you are).

I have noticed that some of my own crew guys put up some of the most intense fights that I play. They know Mewtwo like the back of their hand. No specific move surprises them. Fighting against them is purely tactical. None of them plays as Falco though.

Could it be possible that your crew mate has simply played against you so much that he is able to read your moves with a good level of effectiveness?

I wouldn't say it could be concluded that Falco defeats Mewtwo completely though. It could simply be possible that your crew buddy is simply a bit better at the game overall. I don't know though.

Throughout my Mewtwo career, especially back when I first started it, I hit a ton of brick walls. I would be three and four stocked by the top players. They were so overwhelmingly fast and precise that I couldn't move. I felt as if there was nothing I could do. Every one of my buds around suggested that I pick up another character. I decided to stick with it and continue to play only as Mewtwo(Simply because he is awesome). I became faster, all my moves became L canceled, wave dashing use grew substantially. I created mind games, I played such an overwhelming number of matches against an enourmous variety of people of all skill levels. Over time, I became more experienced. I was infinitely more confident. The improvement was very tangible. When I managed to defeat a Sheik that four stocked me six months previously, that was the final evidence that I needed. That was a long time ago. Now, I feel as if there is nothing I can't do. I play against Florida's absolute best on a regular basis and continue do very well against them, continuously improving. I consistently get good placings in Florida's largest tourney.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that as I am right now, I do not feel that any character is unbeatable. I feel that there is always something I can do either now or in the future to eventually be able to beat that guy.

Peace.
 

Airo

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2006
Messages
1,122
Location
Richmond, BritishColumbia, Canada (williams+railw
heh... my "guy to beat" IS the falco player.

best in BC.

i suppose that explains a little bit why i am so affirmed the the point of view that falco massively counters mewtwo.

but in honesty, he mained so many different characters in the past and became quite literally godly with every character he uses. through him, i think he gave me a very well rounded view of what characters mewtwo do well against. and from my experience, mewtwo does horrible against marth, falco, and cfalcon.

peace

just to show him off a little bit..

he is technically discusting.

you know how people do short hop lasers?
he shines in between each of his SHlasers..

and he also does this .....Shine to Upsmash on me.....
not pretty ._."
 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
Seriously guys, I believe I have more experience than anyone else here in the Falco vs M2 match up. And my conclusion, Falco wins 60/40

Its not a hard counter, by far takes a lot of experience from the falco player to know the match. So I would guess that by tourney results you would see more Mewtwo players win the match.
 

Zorga

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
6
Location
France
Yeah, really good Mewtwo for me =)
I wish I had the same, Mewtwo's my favourite character ^^'
 
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