Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Swamp Sensei]

It's OK not GOOD.
Cons: Slow, easily interruptable, sweet spot starts BEHIND charizard, very low damage and knockback.
pros: Good spread and autocancel window.
Other than that a lot of other characters nairs are just plain better than charizards.
They either come out much faster, do more damage, lead into footstool combos, have much higher damage knockback, or have a much better FAF.
It also doesn't mesh well with zard's toolkit, a slow character in the air needs either an aerial with decent range (bair), or good speed (fair).
Nair is neither and most characters can shield punish a nair using zard effortlessly, it's only real purpose is to use it's autocancel window as a bait or to punish landings but with zards poor air speed flamethrower or rock smash would be better for landing while fair or bair would be better for offensive pressure or follow-ups.
It's not something that should be ignored by any means but as the lowest damaging of zards moves with no way to combo into it it's not as phenomenal as you're making it out to be.

I believe you should sit back, read what I said again, look at your post and then place your hand on your forehead.

TLDR:

I was talking about Fair.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

GAAAAACK!!!!! I thought people were talking about nair. Darn it! I'm deleting that if I can IGNORE THAT POST!!!

Fair is great for zard the only downside is it's range.

Pros: hits hard, hits fast (It comes out roughly about as quickly as marth's fair I think. Correct me if I'm wrong on that), excellent FAF, good KB.

Cons: poor range, landing lag can be a bit poor.

Fair is zard's follow-up to just about everything. Bthrow? Dash and fair. Dthrow? Depending on weight fair hits them easily every time. Someone trying to come at you with a laggy aerial? Fair them.
It's zard's solution to just about anything that happens in front of him (and a bit above him). It's so stupidly fast especially for a super-heavyweight that it can easily catch opponents off-guard even if they're expecting it, it's just not that easy to evade the move.
On top of that it has great KB and damage so it can be used as a finishing blow not to mention an edgeguarding tool. It's probably one of zard's best moves aside from flamethrower and bair!

 

[Guido65]

Skeeter Mania
Why on earth is mii swordfighters down tilt in c tier? Its easily an a tier move. I made a post a while back on to why it's an A rank move. I added the in bold one as I just noticed it recently when labbing.

down tilt should be A rank because:

• It is very safe on shield(-1 on shield drop and -8 on oos). Spaced dtilt is incredibly hard to punish.
• It is a combo starter and combos into grab at low %.
• Also it has good range and disjoint.
• Better then marcina and roys frame data wise(it is frame 5 with an faf of 20 vs frame 7 with an faf of 24 and an faf of 22).
• Mii swordfighter's fastest attack at frame 5 and is his best poke.
• It even lowers his hurtbox when he uses it.

 

[JayZee1700]

First, thank you for putting 's N-air at A-tier. Also his F-air is right where it belongs. Does 24% with both hits, High KB and KBG, low landing lag, safe on shield (if spaced correctly). You can even cross up your opponent with a short hop F-air: with no fast fall, both hits come out. with a fast fall, only the first one comes out. Makes the move a mind game in itself.

You could go as far as to say 's F-air is S-tier, but since it belongs to a mid tier and is pretty uncommon in the current meta, I don't have enough data from tournament results to show how good 's F-air is. Oh well.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The down smash tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Dsmash (r/smashbros)

Tiers are ordered as with all these r/smashbros lists.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Isn't Pikachus really weak and has a ton of end lag? For Dsmash.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Isn't Pikachus really weak and has a ton of end lag? For Dsmash.

Yep. That being said, the r/smashbros placement isn't too far from the one on this thread (despite the latter not being ordered).

 

[TTTTTsd]

How is Doc DSmash ranked lower than Mario's even though it's the same thing but it kills almost 20% earlier?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

How is Doc DSmash ranked lower than Mario's even though it's the same thing but it kills almost 20% earlier?

Also really questionable. Though if you thought that was odd, I thought the up smash list was even worse (previous page).

 

[JayZee1700]

How is Doc DSmash ranked lower than Mario's even though it's the same thing but it kills almost 20% earlier?

Aren't the lists not supposed to be in a particular order? Although in this case, Doc is definitely supposed to be over or at least in the same tier as Mario, so idk

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The dash attack list is now out!

Spoiler: Dash attack (r/smashbros)

On top of this, I also created an overall tier list averaging the non-rounded scores from this spreadsheet. Thanks again to ARGHETH for the template, and here it is!

Spoiler: Ground-based (r/smashbros)

BTW, here's a list of all the spreadsheets as of now:

• Jab
• Forward Tilt
• Up Tilt
• Down Tilt
• Forward Smash
• Up Smash
• Down Smash
• Dash Attack
• Grounded
• Neutral Air
• Forward Air
• Back Air
• Up Air
• Down Air
• ZAir
• Aerials
• Forward Throw
• Back Throw
• Up Throw
• Down Throw
• Throws
• Grabs
• Neutral Special

Skeeter Mania
Why on earth is mii swordfighters down tilt in c tier? Its easily an a tier move. I made a post a while back on to why it's an A rank move. I added the in bold one as I just noticed it recently when labbing.

I'm guessing it might have to due with how obscure Miis are as a whole.

EDIT INCOMING: The neutral air tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Nair (r/smashbros)

ANOTHER MAJOR EDIT INCOMING: The forward air tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Fair (r/smashbros)

YET ANOTHER MAJOR UPDATE: The back air tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Bair (r/smashbros)

EVEN MORE MAJOR UPDATES: The up air tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Uair (r/smashbros)

 

[ARGHETH]

Right, general consensus seems to be that Fair is fine, so it's going to remain unchanged except with Charizard C->B tier (dont feel like remaking it).

Next: Dair

Spoiler: Dair

 

[Nah]

Why is Mac not down in E with Gunner?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Why is Mac not down in E with Gunner?

Might have to do with the limited situational utility Mac has (can jab lock at essentially any percent)?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Marth and Lucina's Dair to B, can be a good landing option and the sourspot sends an upward trajectory, which can make it a solid combo starter.

 

[TDK]

Marth and Lucina's Dair to B, can be a good landing option and the sourspot sends an upward trajectory, which can make it a solid combo starter.

you can't seriously be arguing Marcina's dair is as good as Yoshi's, Mario's, or Link's.

Granted, those three could probably get a bump up (Yoshi's does like 34 and murders shields, Mario's is a surprising kill move that true combos from up air, and Link's is essentially Diet Cloud dair) so maybe it's a moot point.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm finding it difficult if I should agree with Dair staying in B, or moving up to A-tier. The height / size of the mii can make a difference, but a medium size Mii Swordsman Dair is good enough to still be B-A tier I feel. The move has multiple hits, surprises with a landing hit (similar to Falco Fair which boils down to MU inexperience), catches the 2-frame, bullies teleporting recoveries grabbing ledge too, & can end with more Dair drilling gimp OR a footstool moment. Take your pick. . . you will be conditioned to recover differently whether you choose to go low in a alternate way, or simply not challenge & recover high above SF.

The only Dair that strikes the same fear would be Dair, but it's not a shock when they're quite similar in design.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I'd move bayo's dair down to B. Sure it's incredibly strong but the spike hitbox can be teched and is hard to hit offstage, it has no true combos into it (apart from the first hit of WTw which is extremely difficult), it's punishable no matter what, and edgeguarding with it will often save the opponent instead of killing them. The sourspot even hits the opponent out of the landing hitbox if they have too much percent, letting it accomplish almost nothing. It's definitely her worst aerial and A might be overselling it.

EDIT: I just saw the bair list and Bayo was way too low, she should easily be top 3 if not number 1, her bair does god damn everything, it's just a better ZSS bair. On the same topic, Falcon's uair should be 4th I think, maybe 3rd, it's almost perfect.

 

[arbustopachon]

I'd move bayo's dair down to B. Sure it's incredibly strong but the spike hitbox can be teched and is hard to hit offstage, it has no true combos into it (apart from the first hit of WTw which is extremely difficult), it's punishable no matter what, and edgeguarding with it will often save the opponent instead of killing them. The sourspot even hits the opponent out of the landing hitbox if they have too much percent, letting it accomplish almost nothing. It's definitely her worst aerial and A might be overselling it.

EDIT: I just saw the bair list and Bayo was way too low, she should easily be top 3 if not number 1, her bair does god damn everything, it's just a better ZSS bair. On the same topic, Falcon's uair should be 4th I think, maybe 3rd, it's almost perfect.

Bayo is on S tier on the Bair list. remember order does not matter.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Bayo is on S tier on the Bair list. remember order does not matter.

Sorry, I mean the reddit one, she's properly placed on ours.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bayo is on S tier on the Bair list. remember order does not matter.

He was talking about the r/smashbros one (characters are ordered).

EDIT: The down air tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Dair (r/smashbros)

LARGE LATE ANNOUNCEMENT: The forward throw and back throw lists are now out!

Spoiler: Fthrow (r/smashbros)

Spoiler: Bthrow (r/smashbros)

On top of this, an aerial tier list has been created days ago averaging the total means from each characters aerial (including Zairs). Here are the resutls of that!

Spoiler: Aerials (r/smashbros)

ANOTHER ANNOUNCEMENT: The up throw tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Uthrow (r/smashbros)

EXTRA ANNOUNCEMENT: Three tier lists incoming!!

Spoiler: Dthrow (r/smashbros)

Spoiler: Throws (r/smashbros)

Spoiler: Grabs (r/smashbros)

Tiers are ordered, as always. Leave thoughts below!

EDIT INCOMING: The neutral B tier list is now out!

Spoiler: Neutral B (r/smashbros)

 

[Pepsi]

Where's the pictures? A lot of them aren't showing up.

 

[REZERO]

Where's the pictures? A lot of them aren't showing up.

Its working now if you want to take a look.

 

[LightningHelix]

Did Zelda's jab really just get ranked C? And her neutral air a D?

What even is this list?

 

[SJMistery]

Did Zelda's jab really just get ranked C? And her neutral air a D?

What even is this list?

It's mostly because they are attached to Zelda. If that jab was on literally everybody else it would be S, due to being perfectly safe on shield and an easy way to set up a damaging combo, and much the same for Nair, wich as Ultimate Pikachu shows, would mean a guaranteed follow up with a fast finisher or KO confirm, wich Zelda notoriously lacks.

A good analogy would be found on the MagicScrumpy Terrible Marth video, on the section of the grab. In case you don't know and don't feel like watching it, it's a video that speculates what would Melee Marth look if he had been about as bad as Melee Kirby (WARNING: the comments section is chock-full of "or just show a picture of Roy" jokes). He left the grab range and frame data intact, but instead made the throws considerably slower and laggy, invalidating any potential utility of his still fantastic grab completely.