Ran an online customs enabled competitive tournament, starting to do them weekly!

[Jed05]

So I hosted / shoutcasted (first time, go easy on me) a tournament last Sunday and will be hosting another this Sunday!

We used the basic rules of For Glory mode, so 2 stock, 5 minutes, but with custom moves and stats allowed. Overall I think the setup rules wise felt pretty on point. Matches that lasted the entire 5 minutes were typically more of the dull matches anyways, so the sudden death was welcomed. Also players clearly had time to adapt between rounds, though we did best of 3. The tournament ended up taking like 7 hours total anyways.

Anywho, if you'd like to see what it was like, I've embedded a playlist with all the matches below.

Also this is one of my favorite matches specifically, with custom Pikachu / Sheik:

UPDATE 9/21 - SMASH JAM: CUSTOM SLAMS 3DS TOURNAMENT

Hosted this tournament today as well. Now that people have unlocked some more equipment, it is starting to look a bit different. I'd say it is still too early to call on whether or not equipment can be used, but clearly it has an impact on this tournament. It is unknown if all players opted to use it.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Thanks for this. It's cool to see custom moves in action.

 

[Tristan_win]

So these matches are played with equipment?

 

[Jed05]

So these matches are played with equipment?

Yes, though some people chose not to use them for one reason or another.

 

[Conda]

Yes, though some people chose not to use them for one reason or another.

Probably for a good reason. Not possible to practice with equipment and vs equipment, and doesn't let them get good with the character as they'll actually be able to play them in competitive tournaments.

 

[Raijinken]

Probably for a good reason. Not possible to practice with equipment and vs equipment, and doesn't let them get good with the character as they'll actually be able to play them in competitive tournaments.

Entering a C/E tournament and choosing not to use them is a matter of choice. The only reason to do it is if you think the defaults are the best. If they plan on entering tournaments like this in the future (which, if I had the JP version, I'd totally enter, and would love to enter in the future), then playing and using the changes would be the best way to practice using them in this scenario.

They're different kinds of tournaments, practicing for one doesn't have much to do with practicing for another. It's like practicing PM versus practicing Brawl.

 

[Jed05]

Probably for a good reason. Not possible to practice with equipment and vs equipment, and doesn't let them get good with the character as they'll actually be able to play them in competitive tournaments.

You practice by playing others online on your friendslist, or locally. Not really that hard to pull off, we had a lot of practice before the tournament!

 

[TheMasterDS]

I didn't watch a lot of this but I think it's exactly the sort of thing that should be going on. Online tournaments experimenting with the rules like has been discussed elsewhere is a step in the right direction when the other tournaments out there have been playing it safe.

I can't say I'm a fan of custom equipment though especially since you don't show the character selection process meaning we don't get a look at the circle with the stats on it. Additionally I really don't like how it takes a minute in the stage before the game begins. If you can reliably suicide by 5:30 maybe start it then just to keep things moving?

I would suggest trying out some of the other things people have been talking about like having a very liberal selection of stages next time. Could be fun.

 

[Conda]

Entering a C/E tournament and choosing not to use them is a matter of choice. The only reason to do it is if you think the defaults are the best. If they plan on entering tournaments like this in the future (which, if I had the JP version, I'd totally enter, and would love to enter in the future), then playing and using the changes would be the best way to practice using them in this scenario.

They're different kinds of tournaments, practicing for one doesn't have much to do with practicing for another. It's like practicing PM versus practicing Brawl.

All I meant is at this point, I imagine a lot of competitive players are focused on practising using characters that will behave as they will at brick and mortar tournaments. That's all I meant

 

[Raijinken]

All I meant is at this point, I imagine a lot of competitive players are focused on practising using characters that will behave as they will at brick and mortar tournaments. That's all I meant

True enough. I'd personally like to see C/E tournaments (as I'm probably going to be calling them henceforth) catch on as a sort of secondary event. Kinda like how some players mostly only compete in doubles, it would be cool to see some players compete primarily in C/Es.

 

[TheMasterDS]

By C/E do you mean custom moves enabled or custom moves and stats? Additionally if the later does the regular tournament have moves enabled?

My probably uninformed opinion as a new viewer of this scene is there should be three basic categories. One that just emulates For Glory which is ideal for people who don't get in any other sort of practice, one with regular/fair stages and custom moves, one with custom moves and stats with I dunno what stage selection. Could be that stats would allow characters to compensate on their worst stages allowing more stages to be more even in that category.

 

[Chiroz]

Good job on running tournaments that you like, but aren't you afraid of people just going full knockback or full defense (or full speed or jump or something silly like that)? I mean full knockback and full defense seems like it would create very boring games. But that's just my opinion. Don't let anyone get you down, if you're able to do what you like, then do it!



I just realized that Wifi play will allow for very, very wacky tournaments (since the problem before was getting attendants, that's not really a problem anymore).

 

[Phyr]

Good job on running tournaments that you like, but aren't you afraid of people just going full knockback or full defense (or full speed or jump or something silly like that)? I mean full knockback and full defense seems like it would create very boring games. But that's just my opinion. Don't let anyone get you down, if you're able to do what you like, then do it!



I just realized that Wifi play will allow for very, very wacky tournaments (since the problem before was getting attendants, that's not really a problem anymore).

Full knockback makes you be jiglypuff-esque with characters not designed to be such like jigglypuff and rosalina.

Full defense makes you into a punching bag with moveset.

Could people stop complaining before seeing things in action? Please?

 

[Chiroz]

Full knockback makes you be jiglypuff-esque with characters not designed to be such like jigglypuff and rosalina.

Full defense makes you into a punching bag with moveset.

Could people stop complaining before seeing things in action? Please?

Yes, which is exactly my point, they both make the game completely unfun to play. I ain't talking about whether it is OP or not. Read my post before you actually reply. Follow your own advice.



Edit: Also I am sure a full defense Bowser could actually work in theory even though it will create an stupidly boring campy match. And I am sure an incredibly glass cannon Bowser that can kill in only 1 forward smash will also be ridiculously unfun to play against after the first 2 or 3 games (It will be exciting to see him for the first time, but it will get very annoying, very fast because the game won't be about "who's the better player" it will be about "can you dodge every one of my attacks the whole game". It will almost literally be an IC match where almost every attack is a grab).

If you reread my post I am not against making your own kind of wacky tournaments. If you want to make a tournament with whatever you want then do it, I am not "complaining", I actually would like to try some of these out. I was literally being curious if he wasn't scared of douchebags ruining the system in this way and if he had a plan of action to regulate such things.

 

[Jed05]

Speaking of which we ran another tournament today, I'm not so sure equipment is a good idea now. A Ganondorf build had +attack and +defense and WRECKED.

That being said some things were not known, like if every player had equipment or not, also whether or not they even understood the equipment system, since it seems to be the least known amongst most basic players.

I do think there is still a chance equipment will be allowed and work in a competitive setting, if players understand how to use it and don't have to deal with a language barrier.

That being said this Ganondorf was getting to like 70+% in like 3 hits or so.

 

[Chiroz]

Speaking of which we ran another tournament today, I'm not so sure equipment is a good idea now. A Ganondorf build had +attack and +defense and WRECKED.

That being said some things were not known, like if every player had equipment or not, also whether or not they even understood the equipment system, since it seems to be the least known amongst most basic players.

I do think there is still a chance equipment will be allowed and work in a competitive setting, if players understand how to use it and don't have to deal with a language barrier.

That being said this Ganondorf was getting to like 70+% in like 3 hits or so.

Plus he was able to resist upwards of 200-250% I would guess, right?

Full knockback makes you be jiglypuff-esque with characters not designed to be such like jigglypuff and rosalina.

Full defense makes you into a punching bag with moveset.

Could people stop complaining before seeing things in action? Please?

This is what I was talking about, and we don't even have 2 weeks with the game, this isn't even an "exploit of the rules" yet. It will get worse when people start doing theorycrafting and mathematical analysis.

 

[XQuoteX]

I think the largest issue with equipment is that its randomly generated. Not everyone will be able to have the same pieces of equipment to use, some players will get far superior equipment by chance with large bonuses to a stat while a small penalty to another stat. For example, I got a +50 defense -7 speed equip from smash run. A typical piece of equipment would have a much larger number for the penalty stat like -34~-27 speed. I just got lucky with RNG. On top of that some equipment have effects like temporary invincibility at the start of a match, recovering some health every second, or even starting a match with a certain item in hand. So because of this, some player's equipment will be vastly superior to others, allowing them to balance stats easier to have large bonuses with no negatives including additional effects. The random nature of equipment doesn't fit well into a competitive-minded environment in my opinion and I feel many others sympathize with this sentiment.

 

[Jed05]

Updated OP with todays tournament.

 

[Chiroz]

I think the largest issue with equipment is that its randomly generated. Not everyone will be able to have the same pieces of equipment to use, some players will get far superior equipment by chance with large bonuses to a stat while a small penalty to another stat. For example, I got a +50 defense -7 speed equip from smash run. A typical piece of equipment would have a much larger number for the penalty stat like -34~-27 speed. I just got lucky with RNG. On top of that some equipment have effects like temporary invincibility at the start of a match, recovering some health every second, or even starting a match with a certain item in hand. So because of this, some player's equipment will be vastly superior to others, the random nature of equipment doesn't fit well into a competitive-minded environment in my opinion and I feel many others sympathize with this sentiment.

This is one of the biggest problems honestly.

I think in order for equipment to be viable there needs to be some sort of regulation on it. Not only is regulation kind of hard for these situations but wouldn't regulating it kind of kill the magic of equipment in the first place?

I am glad to see unique tournaments popping up and I don't mean to "bum" anyone with my negativity. I am just really curious as to how all that's going to be handled and if it can be handled at all.

 

[Chauzu]

Yeah I was the Ganondorf and he was a beast with equipment since you could lower speed without penalty since he is already so slow. This was espescially effective online where there is always -some- lag so easier to punish and Ganondorf happily punishes, racking up % really easily and edgeguarding is hard with the threat of Ganoncide with side special.

I was against equipment from the beginning due to several reasons already stated in another thread but it was nice seeing how it can buff some characters without consequences. (My -53 speed Ganondorf felt as slow as usual lol).

 

[Chiroz]

Yeah I was the Ganondorf and he was a beast with equipment since you could lower speed without penalty since he is already so slow. This was espescially effective online where there is always -some- lag so easier to punish and Ganondorf happily punishes, racking up % really easily and edgeguarding is hard with the threat of Ganoncide with side special.

I was against equipment from the beginning due to several reasons already stated in another thread but it was nice seeing how it can buff some characters without consequences. (My -53 speed Ganondorf felt as slow as usual lol).

Yea, the problem is once people have the game for months and have excessively good equipment from RNG plus min/maxing certain stats to get exactly what they want. Coupled with specific powers.

I'd like to try one of this tournaments though, once the game comes out . They sound like fun.

 

[XQuoteX]

Yea, the problem is once people have the game for months and have excessively good equipment from RNG plus min/maxing certain stats to get exactly what they want. Coupled with specific powers.

I'd like to try one of this tournaments though, once the game comes out . They sound like fun.

It'll start feeling like the grind currently present in Destiny if equipment catches on haha!

 

[guedes the brawler]

can you perhaps transfer equipment between versions of smash? this could be our solution to spread as many quipment pieces as possible to people.

for example, at a C/E tournament, we could have someone with a 3Ds with lots of equips ready to transfer those to people who might want something more optimal. Say, you trained witha +Defense Rosalina, but you found out during the tournament that +speed could work better. But you don't have +speed equipment. This is where the "logbook" could come in.

Ideally, Equipment events shouldn't be the first ones to be played locally, in order to let players exchange and practice with equipment they might not have.


i think Equipment has potential, but i really don't think they should take over non-equipment play. That's not to say they are inferior to that kind of play, but it's uch harder to account for equipment and i think not everyone should be forced to Min-max. That, and it could bring some really "bad" playstyles depending on the character, which again people really shouldn't be forced to deal with

 

[Dooms]

I think the largest issue with equipment is that its randomly generated. Not everyone will be able to have the same pieces of equipment to use, some players will get far superior equipment by chance with large bonuses to a stat while a small penalty to another stat. For example, I got a +50 defense -7 speed equip from smash run. A typical piece of equipment would have a much larger number for the penalty stat like -34~-27 speed. I just got lucky with RNG. On top of that some equipment have effects like temporary invincibility at the start of a match, recovering some health every second, or even starting a match with a certain item in hand. So because of this, some player's equipment will be vastly superior to others, allowing them to balance stats easier to have large bonuses with no negatives including additional effects. The random nature of equipment doesn't fit well into a competitive-minded environment in my opinion and I feel many others sympathize with this sentiment.

This is why it won't be competitively viable in my opinion.

The thing with custom moves are that they (for the most part) are either utilized entirely differently or they have draw backs. The most common examples are up-b's that give you less recovery but in return give you more damage and/or knockback. Along with this, they are not random. Each character has three set custom moves. You still have to unlock them, but that won't limit people from getting the moves once people start saying which custom moves are better than others.

Equipment doesn't have those same things going for it from my understanding. An example someone had last night was +50 defense -7 speed. I'm not sure how this can come across as competitively viable when equipment is random. It becomes a fight of who can get the most efficient equipment instead of who knows their character more, and that doesn't sound competitively viable in the slightest to me.

Running your own tournaments with this is 100% fine, don't get me wrong. However, asking if it's competitively viable is completely different. The equipment will more than likely go with items, and only time will tell for custom moves. All my opinion, of course.

 

[Roxas215]

Im all for custom moves to be tournament legal. But equipment is a whole different ballpark that i don't think anyone wants to deal with in a tournament setting.

 

[CosmicGlitch]

i caught a video of this just browsing youtube and i thought you were playing and commentating your own matches as if you were in a tournament. i thought it was pretty funny with that idea in mind, this is cool too though

 

[「 Derk 」]

I enjoyed watching your tournament yesterday Jed. You did a good job commentating the matches especially since you said it was only your 2nd time doing commentary. That Ganondorf was powerful!

Since people want to make a big deal about equipment for some reason:
Equipment stats only seem random if you don't understand how they work. If a piece of equipment has no additional bonus then the stat boosts are higher. This gives you a bigger boost because that is what the item is used for. You are sacrificing a possible additional effect for higher stat gain. If the item has an effect tied to it then the stats are lowered to balance the extra effect. Yes, there is random chance tied to equipment but it is nowhere near what people are making it out to be. I will admit that RNG could be annoying for which equipment you get, but that just adds replay value to the game.

examples:
Attack Badge: Attack +16, Defense -8, Buff Ratio: 2.0
Additional Effect: None

Attack Badge of Auto Healing: Attack +13, Defense -33, Buff Ratio: 0.39
Additional Effect: Heal 2% every 3 seconds

You can see that the stats on these 2 items are extremely different. The reason is because the first item is for pure stat gain while the 2nd one is based on the additional effect gained. Auto healing every 3 seconds sounds great right? I am sure losing 33 defense to balance the 2% heal sounds great also huh? It is a trade off aka balanced. You will take more damage than usual but you now have a very slight heal effect. People need to stop crying about everything because this game happens to be different to what you are use to playing. If you have no interest in equipment then don't use it. Pretty simple right?

There is already a large amount of info here on equipment for anyone interested.

 

[TheMasterDS]

Even if it balanced if I, as a viewer, can't tell what stuff any given player is rocking then it's just confusing.

That's the thing I'd strongly suggest if you or anyone does custom layouts again. Before the match starts show everyone the circle with the stats on it. In fact if that could just be on the stream at all times that'd be great. Without it equipment is just confusing.

 

[Chiroz]

I enjoyed watching your tournament yesterday Jed. You did a good job commentating the matches especially since you said it was only your 2nd time doing commentary. That Ganondorf was powerful!

Since people want to make a big deal about equipment for some reason:
Equipment stats only seem random if you don't understand how they work. If a piece of equipment has no additional bonus then the stat boosts are higher. This gives you a bigger boost because that is what the item is used for. You are sacrificing a possible additional effect for higher stat gain. If the item has an effect tied to it then the stats are lowered to balance the extra effect. Yes, there is random chance tied to equipment but it is nowhere near what people are making it out to be. I will admit that RNG could be annoying for which equipment you get, but that just adds replay value to the game.

examples:
Attack Badge: Attack +16, Defense -8, Buff Ratio: 2.0
Additional Effect: None

Attack Badge of Auto Healing: Attack +13, Defense -33, Buff Ratio: 0.39
Additional Effect: Heal 2% every 3 seconds

You can see that the stats on these 2 items are extremely different. The reason is because the first item is for pure stat gain while the 2nd one is based on the additional effect gained. Auto healing every 3 seconds sounds great right? I am sure losing 33 defense to balance the 2% heal sounds great also huh? It is a trade off aka balanced. You will take more damage than usual but you now have a very slight heal effect. People need to stop crying about everything because this game happens to be different to what you are use to playing. If you have no interest in equipment then don't use it. Pretty simple right?

There is already a large amount of info here on equipment for anyone interested.

People are saying it's random because Sakurai himself said the stats are randomly generated when you gained the item.

I could technically get that same badge as you but only have -15 defense because I got lucky.

 

[Raijinken]

By C/E do you mean custom moves enabled or custom moves and stats? Additionally if the later does the regular tournament have moves enabled?

My probably uninformed opinion as a new viewer of this scene is there should be three basic categories. One that just emulates For Glory which is ideal for people who don't get in any other sort of practice, one with regular/fair stages and custom moves, one with custom moves and stats with I dunno what stage selection. Could be that stats would allow characters to compensate on their worst stages allowing more stages to be more even in that category.

I mean Customs/Equipment, so customs and stats.

And those sort of categories for tournaments sound good to me. While standard competitive formats are typically the most preferred, it's always good to have some variety. That's why Valve does things like the all-star match and solo mid challenge during the International.