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Questions about Melee Netplay and Monitors

Eloquent

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3
Hello everyone! I made an account on Smashboards specifically to ask this question, but I'm hoping to stick around for a long time. I'd like to ask for some advice on my current Melee netplay setup, and how I could further optimize it to eliminate input lag, with special emphasis placed on my monitor.

My current computer setup (important performance specs + monitor) is as follows:
i5-6600k @ Stock Clock
NVIDIA GTX 1070
16 GB DDDR4 RAM
HP Pavilion 23cw 1080p monitor (https://www.amazon.com/HP-Pavilion-...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00U67WPDM)

I'm pretty sure my CPU, video card, and RAM are all good enough for netplay, but I want to know what I could do in regards to my monitor--I'm sure it adds a lot of input lag while I'm playing. I've heard CRT computer monitors are basically lagless, but my GPU doesn't have a VGA port and I'm not sure how much lag an HDMItoVGA, DVI-DtoVGA, or DPtoVGA adapter would introduce, or whether it would be worth it to buy one. I've also heard that high-end gaming monitors are pretty close to CRTs in terms of lag nowadays, but I'm not sure which one to purchase!

Basically, it comes down to two questions:
  1. Should I use a CRT monitor, and if so, what kind of adapter should I purchase?
  2. Should I use a high-end gaming monitor, and if so, which one?
My budget for the latter is $350 CDN, but I have a few CRT monitors lying around, so if there's some way to take advantage of them, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance!
 

artifice

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
567
Location
Spokane, WA
when emulating you don't need a CRT. Think like professional PC Gamers use LEDs with no problem. Its different then running from a console where you worry about things like internal resolution/resolution conversion and analog signals.
 

Pauer

The Pauerful
Moderator
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
592
Location
Linz, Austria
Your best bet is a always a CRT monitor.
If your video card card has a DVI-I output connector, you can use a passive dvi to vga adapter. Since you didn't post the exact model of your video card, I couldn't check for you.
Since it is passive, the adapter does not introduce input lag like an active adapter would because it needs to convert the digital signal into an analog signal first.

artifice artifice
All LED Monitors still introduce lag. Most gaming monitors labeled 1ms have about 4-6ms of total input lag. 144hz monitors can reduce this to a bit above 1ms (with a source at 144hz). I personally have a 144hz monitor myself and certainly notice input lag playing on regular dolphin.
CRT monitors on the other hand have only microseconds of delay. For more info, see my response here.
 

Eloquent

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3
Your best bet is a always a CRT monitor.
If your video card card has a DVI-I output connector, you can use a passive dvi to vga adapter. Since you didn't post the exact model of your video card, I couldn't check for you.
Since it is passive, the adapter does not introduce input lag like an active adapter would because it needs to convert the digital signal into an analog signal first.

artifice artifice
All LED Monitors still introduce lag. Most gaming monitors labeled 1ms have about 4-6ms of total input lag. 144hz monitors can reduce this to a bit above 1ms (with a source at 144hz). I personally have a 144hz monitor myself and certainly notice input lag playing on regular dolphin.
CRT monitors on the other hand have only microseconds of delay. For more info, see my response here.
My GPU model is the GTX1070 Windforce OC, which, unfortunately, does not have a DVI-I connector: only an HDMI, DVI-D, and two DisplayPorts. In light of this, what would you recommend I do? Is purchasing an active converter still worth it, or should I just go for a high-end gaming monitor?
 

Raycu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2015
Messages
142
Your best bet is a always a CRT monitor.
If your video card card has a DVI-I output connector, you can use a passive dvi to vga adapter. Since you didn't post the exact model of your video card, I couldn't check for you.
Since it is passive, the adapter does not introduce input lag like an active adapter would because it needs to convert the digital signal into an analog signal first.

artifice artifice
All LED Monitors still introduce lag. Most gaming monitors labeled 1ms have about 4-6ms of total input lag. 144hz monitors can reduce this to a bit above 1ms (with a source at 144hz). I personally have a 144hz monitor myself and certainly notice input lag playing on regular dolphin.
CRT monitors on the other hand have only microseconds of delay. For more info, see my response here.
Actually, I got into an argument about this on reddit, and it seems that Kadano has run tests and found that Faster Dolphin makes running melee have less input lag than using a CRT on console (provided you have an average monitor). This along with the fact that a BenQ or other high to mid quality gaming monitor has more utility makes me think that they all around make more sense than CRT for netplay.
 
Last edited:

Pauer

The Pauerful
Moderator
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
592
Location
Linz, Austria
My GPU model is the GTX1070 Windforce OC, which, unfortunately, does not have a DVI-I connector: only an HDMI, DVI-D, and two DisplayPorts. In light of this, what would you recommend I do? Is purchasing an active converter still worth it, or should I just go for a high-end gaming monitor?
Does your Mainboard have an analog video output? If it does, I would try and use that. Dolphin isn't very demanding on the gpu and the integrated graphics from skylake chips will be enough to run FM and regular dolphin, even with some enhancements.

Edit: R Raycu
My problem with LCD monitors is that you can't quite use them for offline play, while you can use CRT Monitors. You can still fiddle with FM a little, I explain my setup here but it still doesn't feel right.
Either are fine for online play, the extra few ms doesn't make that much of a difference if there is already some lag involved but CRTs are simply the cheapest and best alternative to LCDs.

Kadano's findings show that FM reduces lag by 40ms with a 120hz display. In my experience, most connections I have between others and myself on netplay are at around 40ms. Here is where a CRT set to 120hz will feel almost lagless and even my 300$ monitor still won't quite.
 
Last edited:

Eloquent

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3
Does your Mainboard have an analog video output? If it does, I would try and use that. Dolphin isn't very demanding on the gpu and the integrated graphics from skylake chips will be enough to run FM and regular dolphin, even with some enhancements.
Sadly, my MOBO only has HDMI and DVI-D as well, so it looks like I'm screwed. In this case, what would be my best bet?
 

artifice

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
567
Location
Spokane, WA
Your best bet is a always a CRT monitor.
If your video card card has a DVI-I output connector, you can use a passive dvi to vga adapter. Since you didn't post the exact model of your video card, I couldn't check for you.
Since it is passive, the adapter does not introduce input lag like an active adapter would because it needs to convert the digital signal into an analog signal first.

artifice artifice
All LED Monitors still introduce lag. Most gaming monitors labeled 1ms have about 4-6ms of total input lag. 144hz monitors can reduce this to a bit above 1ms (with a source at 144hz). I personally have a 144hz monitor myself and certainly notice input lag playing on regular dolphin.
CRT monitors on the other hand have only microseconds of delay. For more info, see my response here.

Then why don't professional counter-strike players play on CRTs?? Because the lag cause by playing over the internet dwarfs any lag caused by a good LCD monitor. This entire conversation is ridiculous and you are confusing Input lag and display lag in your other post.
 

Raycu

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 18, 2015
Messages
142
Then why don't professional counter-strike players play on CRTs?? Because the lag cause by playing over the internet dwarfs any lag caused by a good LCD monitor. This entire conversation is ridiculous and you are confusing Input lag and display lag in your other post.
Actually, tons of pro Counter-strike players use CRT monitors.
 

Pauer

The Pauerful
Moderator
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
592
Location
Linz, Austria
Sadly, my MOBO only has HDMI and DVI-D as well, so it looks like I'm screwed. In this case, what would be my best bet?
I would not use an adapter because the ones I have found (in a quick google search) don't output in refresh rates higher than 60hz and you definitely want to be able to achieve 120hz with your CRT so you can use Faster Melee to its fullest extent. For example, the CRT I had available when I moved to Vienna for a month, had a horizontal scan rate of 130khz with which I was able to achieve 120hz at a bit above 1200x900 iirc.
Maybe you can find a good adapter but there is always the question of input lag.
If I were you, I would get myself a second graphics card with an analog video output and install it in the second pci-e x16 slot of your motherboard. You can have different graphic card models running at the same time. The only problems you can encounter are driver issues, so it is best to stick with Nvidia.
I would get the cheapest graphics card that has decent DX11 performance with power requirements that you can meet. I would buy used for this purpose.
If your power supply has a spare pci-e 6 pin connectors or if you can produce a 6 pin connector with some combination of adapters(like these 1 , 2), I would get something starting from a gtx 460 or gtx 550. I've found some used for 30€ or less here in Austria and they will be able to play dolphin and FM with good enhancements. As reference, my old gtx 470 was able to run FM with 3x internal resolution and max enhancements.
If you find a graphics card that you consider, check for a review that shows the noise levels as these old cards do get very loud, especially if they are in a blower design. Gigabyte, Asus and especially MSI are usually the best in that regard (and in general). Also make sure to check which Pci-e pins they need. Most gtx X50 and X60 cards only need a single 6-pin.




Then why don't professional counter-strike players play on CRTs?? Because the lag cause by playing over the internet dwarfs any lag caused by a good LCD monitor.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear but I did try to bring that argument up myself earlier. It should be noted that for pro CS players, 144hz Monitors are more benefitial because the source is actually at 144 hz. So the total latency/lag is actually reduced to 1-2ms on average. When I play regular dolphin offline with my 144hz monitor, I certainly notice some lag. I think that's because the source is at 60fps so I don't get all of the benefit of a 144hz monitor.

The thing I was getting at earlier, with FM reducing lag by 40ms is the following:
I don't know how much netplay you have played so I will do some explaining first. When you play online, you have to adjust the "pad buffer" to the amount of ping(latency of the connection) you have. It is more complicated that this, but in this context, it is enough to know that the pad buffer simply adds a certain amount of latency to your inputs to match the connection's latency. With the current build of Faster Melee (4.4) the pad buffer can only be changed in increments of 8ms. Now, it is rather common to be able to find someone you have about 40ms of ping with, so you can put the buffer to 5, adding 40ms of lag. FM reduces the game's inherent input lag by about 40 ms(if viewed at 120hz) on average so at this amount of latency, playing on an LCD will still just not quite feel right whereas playing on a CRT does feel pretty much like playing offline.
Being able to get a ping of 32ms or less with someone is rather rare however. That's why I think using a CRT makes a difference at the moment, simply because of this 40ms threshold.

But you are right, if there is noticable input lag, a few ms don't really matter. But in this context, I think it does. Besides that, a good CRT monitor can be had for 10-30$ used whereas a decent gaming monitors costs 150$ or more. CRTs also have better color representation than the TN-panels that are used in almost all gaming LCDs.

This entire conversation is ridiculous and you are confusing Input lag and display lag in your other post.
I might well have mixed some words up, please correct me if you know better, I am no expert on the subject. Maybe we are simply using different terminology. For example, I'm not sure what you mean with display lag.
In my little post I use 3 different definitions:
First there is (pixel) response time. The time it takes for the pixels to change color. There are different ways of measuring this response time. The best figure is an average of several testing methods. But you only ever get a cherry-picked number in the product description.
Then there is input lag. This describes the amount of time it takes for the a video input to be output to the display, usually measured in the time it takes for the pixels to reach a certain amount of brightness. 80% brightness is used as a threshold most of the time iirc. You never receive this information from a manufacturer/seller at the moment.
Both the response time and the screen's input lag contribute to the total perceived latency/lag, which I called total latency.
 
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