Questions about Bair

[svinthekid]

I've been playing PM for about a year now, and the majority of my time invested into this game has gone to playing and practicing Lucas. I'm primarily a melee player, but PM Lucas is my favorite character to play as in any smash game. But I've never been able to fully understand his bair on a technical level. I'm always able to get whichever of its hitboxes that I want when I combo, but this is just from plain experience and intuitiveness. However I don't fully understand which hitbox at which part of the move actually constitutes connecting the strong hit, weak hit, or spike. I'm just able to get the one I want because I know roughly the proper spacing for each and have done it so many times. I've studied the frames and angles of this move in the Lucas framedata thread, but I still don't get it for some reason. Based on what the thread says, there is a hitbox that lasts the duration of the move (frames 12-16) that spikes with no electric effects. It says there is a one-frame hitbox (frame 12) that spikes with electric effects. And lastly, there's a weaker hitbox from frames 13-16 that sends at a 300 degree angle with electric effects. But this really doesn't seem to match up with what I've experienced when playing as Lucas. There seem to be times when I get a strong, electrical, horizontal hit and times when I get a weaker, non-electric horizontal hit. That doesn't seem to fit with the data in the framedata thread. Furthermore, I don't ever remember getting a bair spike that didn't have electric effects, but the framedata thread says that can happen. Lastly, I've definitely gotten spikes with electric effects during the latter portion of the little flip that Lucas does. None of these things seem to agree with what the thread says. So I was just hoping that someone could give me a complete run-down on the hitboxes, angles, effects, animations, etc. of this move. Thanks in advance

 

[svinthekid]

Nevermind lol. I'm just stupid and was thinking of the angles all incorrectly in my head. This thread can be closed unless anyone still wants to do a write-up on bair for someone else.

 

[D e l t a]

Frame data threads can be awkward like that

Lucas' Bair is fairly simple to understand. It starts slightly in front and travels in an arc around and behind him with a slight disjoint that can reach below ledge for instance.

I'm not too sure about a non-electric spike hitbox, but the electric spike hitboxes are easy to hit if you're above an opponent before or at the time when you start the move, similar to spiking with Marth's Dair.

The first few active frames are more difficult to sweetspot and are great for killing opponents off the top

After that, the hitboxes that appear right around Lucas' head down to his lower torso are better to kill off the sides. This includes the 1 frame hitbox that sends almost completely horizontal and in the opinion of most Lucas players, the 2nd most difficult hitbox to consistently land. The most difficult being the forward facing spike hitbox.

The last active frames are easiest to spike with, especially when you're above the opponent before / during the startup frames of Bair.

==

Landing sourspot / non-electric hits of Bair is simply a spacing issue. These happen if you aren't positioned correctly and right next to the opponent / fully overlapping with their character's hurtbox.

 

[svinthekid]

Frame data threads can be awkward like that

Lucas' Bair is fairly simple to understand. It starts slightly in front and travels in an arc around and behind him with a slight disjoint that can reach below ledge for instance.

I'm not too sure about a non-electric spike hitbox, but the electric spike hitboxes are easy to hit if you're above an opponent before or at the time when you start the move, similar to spiking with Marth's Dair.

The first few active frames are more difficult to sweetspot and are great for killing opponents off the top

After that, the hitboxes that appear right around Lucas' head down to his lower torso are better to kill off the sides. This includes the 1 frame hitbox that sends almost completely horizontal and in the opinion of most Lucas players, the 2nd most difficult hitbox to consistently land. The most difficult being the forward facing spike hitbox.

The last active frames are easiest to spike with, especially when you're above the opponent before / during the startup frames of Bair.

==

Landing sourspot / non-electric hits of Bair is simply a spacing issue. These happen if you aren't positioned correctly and right next to the opponent / fully overlapping with their character's hurtbox.

Hey thanks for the reply, Delta

Yeah I kinda realized after the OP that I was just being stupid when looking at the angles given in the frame data thread haha. Everything you said about the various hitboxes lines us with what I've experienced using the move, so thanks for the insight.

One more question if you have the time: When should you try to go for the reverse bair, and when should you go for a magnet-turnaround -> bair?

 

[D e l t a]

I'm happy to help out

I don't mind taking time to answer questions. I'll be honest, it's drastically easier to get answers in discord chats (there's a link to join the Lucas discord in the forums). Smashboards is great for longer write-ups or big discussions. However lack of a real time notification / message system is unfortunately why the forums are declining in active members.

I'll add images / gifs later to show examples and help clarify.

==

I'd say you shouldn't try to get the reverse Bair hitbox— it just sort of happens sometimes. It's practically inside of Lucas and there's probably some other move that will work better in that situation (Fair, magnet, Uair). It's not the strongest hit since it almost never sweetspots (if at all), but the slight downwards / horizontal angle could be good to set up a ledge guard or kill with bad DI.

Reverse Bair is mainly when you can't get a better followup and don't want to hit with Uair or sourspot Fair

Mag turnaround -> Bair almost always happens after bad DI on Fair / Uair. If the opponent doesn't DI or DI's up and in after Fair/Uair, they end up in this spot right above Lucas' head. You can choose to finish your combo with a Fair and risk the possibility of not getting a sweetspot, or you can turn around with mag and precisely land a sweetspot Bair (choosing between spike / non-spike hitbox).
Note: this only works if the opponent is stuck in hitstun long enough.