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Questioning Zelda's Design

Sai_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
176
Location
Chicago, IL
Hello. I've been playing PM for about two years now, and I've been meaning to post this for a long time. Over the years, I've noticed some changes that I'm not fond of to characters. Zelda in particular (with a few others) have gameplay styles that are not hard to beat, just down right annoying and sometimes unfair.


One particular issue I would like to bring up is Zelda's neutral special attack. It has some invincibility frames at the start meaning attacking players are in for a serious punish if they get hit. I find this mechanic unfair for heavy characters like Fox because missing the hit means you'll get hit, and when you do, you get sucked into her special attack and probably end up dead because of her incredible range and power.

I would like someone to enlighten me on why they think this mechanic, the free invincibility frames, is fair when heavy characters seem to have a hard time and baiting Zelda can be tricky because her range is well equipped to handle baits like Fox's lasers. Thank you for your input.
 

Karmaic Avidity

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
45
Location
Atlanta, GA
As this is a public forum, I shall be polite, but blunt.

You are bad.

That is all.

Okay, maybe that's not enough information.

Fox can bait out Nayru's and run in and hit her. That is the end of the explanation. He just can. Heavy AND slow characters both suffer against Zelda naturally. It's called a bad matchup. Can't handle it? Learn a secondary.

Also. Nayru's does NOT lead into death combos, or kill moves. If it does, you're DIing horrendously or are being incredibly predictable in your techs.

Long story short, please don't blame your failures on the design of the game. That's childish.

If you are a troll, well then, I've been had, but so be it.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
Hello. I've been playing PM for about two years now, and I've been meaning to post this for a long time. Over the years, I've noticed some changes that I'm not fond of to characters. Zelda in particular (with a few others) have gameplay styles that are not hard to beat, just down right annoying and sometimes unfair.


One particular issue I would like to bring up is Zelda's neutral special attack. It has some invincibility frames at the start meaning attacking players are in for a serious punish if they get hit. I find this mechanic unfair for heavy characters like Fox because missing the hit means you'll get hit, and when you do, you get sucked into her special attack and probably end up dead because of her incredible range and power.

I would like someone to enlighten me on why they think this mechanic, the free invincibility frames, is fair when heavy characters seem to have a hard time and baiting Zelda can be tricky because her range is well equipped to handle baits like Fox's lasers. Thank you for your input.
Ok, try looking at the move this way. The invuln dodges an attack and she gets to immediately counterattack. Alternatively, she could shield to "dodge" an attack and then counterattack with an out of shield option, like every other character. While shield can be grabbed, Nayrus invuln frames cannot. However, there is also a downside, and that is that the move has a lot of endlag, which means that unlike shield it can be baited and easily punished with any attack. So yes, if she manages to use this to dodge and counterattack, you are getting punished. Probably not as hard as with a shield grab actually. However, if you can make her miss (which is pretty doable) then you get to punish with whatever you like.

I'm not sure what you mean about baits like Fox's lasers sorry.
 

Sai_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
176
Location
Chicago, IL
As this is a public forum, I shall be polite, but blunt.

You are bad.

That is all.

Okay, maybe that's not enough information.

Fox can bait out Nayru's and run in and hit her. That is the end of the explanation. He just can. Heavy AND slow characters both suffer against Zelda naturally. It's called a bad matchup. Can't handle it? Learn a secondary.

Also. Nayru's does NOT lead into death combos, or kill moves. If it does, you're DIing horrendously or are being incredibly predictable in your techs.

Long story short, please don't blame your failures on the design of the game. That's childish.

If you are a troll, well then, I've been had, but so be it.
I intended this post as a form of progression for my gameplay, so no, "trolling" is not my purpose. What I dislike about the Smash community is elitists like you (there's plenty evidence in your post, by the way) who assume some kind of authority over less experienced players. Assuming that I am "blaming [my] failures on the design of the game" and calling me childish is what really puts me off from this community.

Again, I only intend a civil discussion for progression. If you don't intent to follow these guidelines (you should be anywhere, really) then please leave this discussion immediately.

Ok, try looking at the move this way. The invuln dodges an attack and she gets to immediately counterattack. Alternatively, she could shield to "dodge" an attack and then counterattack with an out of shield option, like every other character. While shield can be grabbed, Nayrus invuln frames cannot. However, there is also a downside, and that is that the move has a lot of endlag, which means that unlike shield it can be baited and easily punished with any attack. So yes, if she manages to use this to dodge and counterattack, you are getting punished. Probably not as hard as with a shield grab actually. However, if you can make her miss (which is pretty doable) then you get to punish with whatever you like.

I'm not sure what you mean about baits like Fox's lasers sorry.
Speaking of civilized posts, thank you.

I was just learning this information as well. It seems that my main problem is going in for an attack, usually through SHFFL moves, and then getting thrashed with her neutral-b. I tried to change my approach by coming in with a shield-grab, but I end up getting grabbed instead. Any tips for approach?

By laser baiting, I mean using my lasers to force Zelda to approach me instead of coming to her. This becomes problematic for me since her long range dash attacks are notorious for getting me grabbed and then thrown for a follow up, which is another problem I have but I think it's just that I need practice with lasering.
 
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Sardonyx

星黄泉
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
186
Location
New Brunswick, NJ
So yeah the big thing with Zelda is that you have more tools in the neutral than she does, and you have better pressure than she does, and better speed and stuff like that.

SH lasers are a great way to bait out her grounded nayru's, if she does an aerial one, don't try to punish because it land cancels. If it's grounded, you can sometimes run in and punish with a dash attack, grab, SH nair, etc.
 

Sai_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
176
Location
Chicago, IL
So yeah the big thing with Zelda is that you have more tools in the neutral than she does, and you have better pressure than she does, and better speed and stuff like that.

SH lasers are a great way to bait out her grounded nayru's, if she does an aerial one, don't try to punish because it land cancels. If it's grounded, you can sometimes run in and punish with a dash attack, grab, SH nair, etc.
Would grabs at lower percents be a better option? It seems my only choice is grabs because she would just crouch-cancel everything else.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I intended this post as a form of progression for my gameplay, so no, "trolling" is not my purpose. What I dislike about the Smash community is elitists like you (there's plenty evidence in your post, by the way) who assume some kind of authority over less experienced players. Assuming that I am "blaming [my] failures on the design of the game" and calling me childish is what really puts me off from this community.

Again, I only intend a civil discussion for progression. If you don't intent to follow these guidelines (you should be anywhere, really) then please leave this discussion immediately.



Speaking of civilized posts, thank you.

I was just learning this information as well. It seems that my main problem is going in for an attack, usually through SHFFL moves, and then getting thrashed with her neutral-b. I tried to change my approach by coming in with a shield-grab, but I end up getting grabbed instead. Any tips for approach?

By laser baiting, I mean using my lasers to force Zelda to approach me instead of coming to her. This becomes problematic for me since her long range dash attacks are notorious for getting me grabbed and then thrown for a follow up, which is another problem I have but I think it's just that I need practice with lasering.
I like making lists so everything is easy to digest. Please don't read them as if I am being short or blunt, I am just trying to be clear and concise.

1) The Zelda boards are probably the best here due to the participants generally being friendly and intelligent. The people who are here often have a sort of community. Due to Zelda's "controversial" nature, people from other boards often drop by and deliver irritating tirades about Zelda being unfair, Zelda players being frauds who are carried by the jank, and Zelda being unfun to play against or downright OP. While you did state that you would like to have a discussion about the topic, the initial post did suggest that you had already formed a similar opinion as those who attack Zelda and Zelda players. The posters above me probably interpreted this as a similar attack. I am not explaining this to justify their responses, only to provide some context to the situation.
2) The grounded version of Nayrus is easily shielded and punished. If you are getting grabbed after a grounded Nayrus completes you are probably just not being fast enough. There is a lot of time to respond, believe me. Aerial Nayrus, if landing at a very specific time will cancel quickly. This is STILL shield grabbable, but the timing is very strict. If you are playing a tether character your grab may be too slow.
3) The best form of counterplay depends on who you are playing as. You keep mentioning Fox, which makes me inclined to guess Fox. I can provide more advice if I know the specific matchup.
 

Karmaic Avidity

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
45
Location
Atlanta, GA
I like making lists so everything is easy to digest. Please don't read them as if I am being short or blunt, I am just trying to be clear and concise.

While you did state that you would like to have a discussion about the topic, the initial post did suggest that you had already formed a similar opinion as those who attack Zelda and Zelda players. The posters above me probably interpreted this as a similar attack. I am not explaining this to justify their responses, only to provide some context to the situation.
Atlas put this pretty accurately. While I won't apologize for my previous post, I will explain that many MANY posts and conversations I've had both on and off the internet have started with what you stated only to devolve into "Zelda is OP, she's broken and dumb." That's not a very fun conversation to have on a weekly basis.

Since you're not trolling though, just about every character has some way to bait and punish Nayru's. Fox and Falco have lasers, Squirtle and Falcon have movement. Snake and Lucas have awkward approach angles and projectiles. What you actually need to tell us is who you're playing so we can help you more accurately. That's another reason your original post didn't sound credible. It sounded like you were complaining about a character without caring about improving.
 

ShadowGanon

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 29, 2013
Messages
1,120
Location
Washington
Just gonna pop in here and mention that they removed the intangibility/invulnerability/invincibility frames (whatever you want to call it) on Zelda's aerial Nayru's back in version 3.5.
 
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Sai_

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
176
Location
Chicago, IL
What you actually need to tell us is who you're playing so we can help you more accurately
The new character I am working on is Fox. I would like to work on Falco after that as well but I've never played him so I don't know what I will mistake on later.
 
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Karmaic Avidity

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
45
Location
Atlanta, GA
The new character I am working on is Fox. I would like to work on Falco after that as well but I've never played him so I don't know what I will mistake on later.
Fox punishes Nayru's incredibly well. If you bait out the grounded version, you have a couple things available to you:
1: If you're near it when she uses it, shield and shield DI in towards her. This lets you get a grab or a usmash OoS.
2: If you're not near her when she uses it, literally run up and do something. It's super laggy.

If she uses the aerial version, you have to go in after she does something AFTER the Nayru's. Her fastest option if she's FRAME PERFECT on the land cancel gives her a frame 8 dsmash. I promise you no Zelda is going to frame perfect LC though. Either way, Aerial Nayru's is smaller, has no invuln, and has huge holes under her and above her.

It's far from broken or unpunishable. Go into debug mode and frame advance the hitboxes on both versions to look at how much time you have to smack her.
 

Prynne

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
115
Just gonna pop in here and mention that they removed the intangibility/invulnerability/invincibility frames (whatever you want to call it) on Zelda's aerial Nayru's back in version 3.5.
Don't remind me.
 

otheusrex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
342
Again, I only intend a civil discussion for progression. If you don't intent to follow these guidelines (you should be anywhere, really) then please leave this discussion immediately.
I understand you have a certain perception of 'elitists' as some people do tend to get an attitude after they start getting more skilled than other players, however, you should be aware that there's the same stereotype for newcomers who get salty and blame character design rather than ask politely for advice on how to deal with certain things or attempt to figure them out themselves. Both the noob and elitist stereotypes have some truth to the behavior's they describe, but I feel that just putting someone in a box(either by name calling or identifying one bad behavior and attributing all the rest of the stereotypical ones) is a sort of low-effort low-reward way of making a point. Thus, i'm only going to discuss individual points as i think it will be more constructive.

" It has some invincibility frames at the start meaning attacking players are in for a serious punish if they get hit" aside from the obvious leap in logic than invincibility frames at the start of a move mean a 'serious punish', just distinguish between grounded and aerial nayrus, only the grounded one has invincibility and it has around 50 frames of endlag after the hitboxes end and she doesn't get much off of the grounded hit anyways. Aerial nayrus starts a good punish for zelda, but only because of the land cancel on it, which she can only use effectively from certain heights. This effectively means, and you'll just have to take my word for it, that she has to get a read on you in order to start a combo with it and it is not in fact something that she throws out whenever as a panic thing and then zero to deaths you because of it.

"I find this mechanic unfair for heavy characters like Fox" in smash there's actually weight (how heavy or light you are which affects how far you fly when struck by a horizontal trajectory as well the amount of total kb you take) and gravity (how quickly you start to fall after being knocked upwards, which affects how high you go when knocked vertically). Fox is light, but he has high gravity so even though he suffers a lot of knock back in general, if it's a vertical sending move he starts falling while he's still in hitstun. When you say "heavy characters like fox" it's confusing a few different qualities.


"because missing the hit means you'll get hit.... and probably end up dead..." That's generally what happens in smash bros though, especially fox. Understandably not fun if you die from most mistakes, but you can always choose a character that this happens to less.


" you get sucked into her special attack and probably end up dead because of her incredible range and power....
why they think this mechanic, the free invincibility frames, is fair ... .... and baiting Zelda can be tricky because her range is well equipped to handle baits like Fox's lasers." All of these really give off the impression that you're saying these are too good for Zelda to have. Zelda is a pretty contentious character and not everyone agrees on how comparitively powerful her tools really are with the rest of the cast or how she would fare if you nerfed her further. Most zelda main's are more than happy to discuss her character design civilly, but just be aware that if you betray a tone that suggests you've already made up your mind about something you're sort of asking for a fight when people inevitably disagree with your assertions.

"why they think this mechanic..." 'why's nearly always sound judgemental in an argument because they usually are. This is pointing a finger at anyone who disagrees with the assertion that zelda is unfair and only makes those people feel defensive. My advice on this is, we're all adults here, more or less, and can take a little arguing, just if you come into a thread guns blazing, don't be so shocked when you get shot.
 
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