Question: Why do people want Sonic to be nerfed badly in Smash 4?

[RanserSSF4]

I've been playing Sonic and he's definitly one of my mains and I love him. I love his mix-ups, his combos, and the fact they gave him more kill options. In Brawl, he was mostly average IMO due to almost no kill moves and his combos were not possible (He does get camped, but that's if you ignore that). I'm glad they buffed him in these aspects.

However, I've seen many people suggest to mostly nerf him, and I'm wondering why?

IMO, he's good the way he is as of right now...but I do agree with some that Bthrow knockback, Side-B, and UP-B should get nerfed just a little. Everything else I think is fine.

 

[Gregory2590]

What I don't understand is why people want his spindash priority nerfed when it's almost laughable as of right now.

 

[RanserSSF4]

What I don't understand is why people want his spindash priority nerfed when it's almost laughable as of right now.

I like his spindash, it's not laughable as you can cancel the beginning animation into shield and be safe if you let it go, but it's definitly punishable if your opponent predicts it.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Sonic in my opinion should not be nerfed, if he is he'll become a pretty worthless character, he was pretty horrible in Brawl.
The reason people want him nerfed is simply because they lose against him and get butt hurt cause they can't be intelligent when fighting him.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

I don't really play Sonic, but from what I've heard, it's because some people think he's poorly designed, and should be changed. Something about spindash being too easy to spam? I'm personally really liking Sonic's design though.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't really play Sonic, but from what I've heard, it's because some people think he's poorly designed, and should be changed. Something about spindash being too easy to spam? I'm personally really liking Sonic's design though.

It's the fact that Sonic is a hit-and-run character that basically decides the flow of the battle and ignores a lot of the neutral game. It was less of an issue in Brawl where he could rarely go in for a kill. Now, he's not only in people's faces all the time but can do some significant damage. Many people will argue that fighting him is downright boring as a result, and in the worst case scenario, excruciating.

Sonic constantly walks a dangerously thin line of being amazingly good and being amazingly mediocre. One miscalculated nerf can send him straight back down to where he was in Brawl. Even though I still played him regularly there, I'd hate to see what little progress that was made in Smash 4 be undone.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic constantly walks a dangerously thin line of being amazingly good and being amazingly mediocre. One miscalculated nerf can send him straight back down to where he was in Brawl.

I've never seen someone more accurately and clearly summarize Sonic than this.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Only a couple of people on steak boards are good with words Cammy.

And in answer to the thread, because they're scrubs. It's all 'you can't punish anything'. Yes you can, it's patience and stage control. People don't like changing their playstyles, you can't chase Sonic around the stage. Goddamnit

 

[Nekoo]

Sonic . Being a Total mess in Brawl he came back from far far away .
He for buffed and he needed it and need more ( That DAir lag ... Or every landing lag ...God ... And the Dash attack being nerfed ... )
He's Was One Of the worst chatacter on brawl ( but i play him anyway ) and now , because he's good when you master him ( because noob Like me don't do anything great with him )
some people want him nerfed because they can't deal with him. I want to remember you that : Sonic can be killed at 68% by Ike , 70% by Bowser . But he can deal like 120-150% to kill them ( on 3ds ta least ) .

So i don't care about whinner ...

 

[Camalange]

Sonic . Being a Total mess in Brawl he came back from far far away .... He's Was One Of the worst chatacter on brawl

no

 

[Nekoo]

no

Objectively he was : Lack Of kill move , poor damage , poor move priority ( and f***ing random tripping ...)
Subjectively he isn't because he rock and because a community help him and found a lot Of AT

 

[Camalange]

Objectively he was : Lack Of kill move , poor damage , poor move priority ( and f***ing random tripping ...)
Subjectively he isn't because he rock and because a community help him and found a lot Of AT

Objectively he was mediocre. Not one of the worst.

Also, his damage output is actually lower in this game than in Brawl.

Objectively the community put in work though.

 

[Nekoo]

Objectively he was mediocre. Not one of the worst.

Also, his damage output is actually lower in this game than in Brawl.

Objectively the community put in work though.

It's more easy to follow-up / combo in This game and so deal more damage ( or it's juste me ? Placebo effect ?)

Well i Think you're right ... You have more experiance than me so i will trust you .
But here in France Sonic is always called "One Of the 5 worst character in smash history" ( Thanks to the comentator from the Nintendo official French National Tournament . I Hope i Make him wrong when i was on the top 10 ) ( And because "Sanic suxx lel" " Gottagofast" " he take Another character places" )

Anyway Sonic dosen't deserve another nerf . Just Leave him Like That or fix This stupid Spin Dash Double Jump who never work

 

[Camalange]

It's more easy to follow-up / combo in This game and so deal more damage ( or it's juste me ? Placebo effect ?)

I'd say it's slightly more easier, mostly in the higher percents now. But as a whole, his moveset does less percent damage.

Well i Think you're right ... You have more experiance than me so i will trust you .
But here in France Sonic is always called "One Of the 5 worst character in smash history" ( Thanks to the comentator from the Nintendo official French National Tournament . I Hope i Make him wrong when i was on the top 10 ) ( And because "Sanic suxx lel" " Gottagofast" " he take Another character places" )

Yeah, no. We went through that here too. He was bottom 5 in the first tier list, but we constantly ranked in tournaments above like half the cast and kept beating people who after like a year or so complaining about it finally had to admit he was actually a mid tier character.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'd say it's slightly more easier, mostly in the higher percents now. But as a whole, his moveset does less percent damage.

Yeah, no. We went through that here too. He was bottom 5 in the first tier list, but we constantly ranked in tournaments above like half the cast and kept beating people who after like a year or so complaining about it finally had to admit he was actually a mid tier character.

Bear in mind pretty much everyone who was below high tier had very little in the way of tournament results, their tier placings were based on theory which in no way panned out and...pixie dust?
Edit: apart from Steak.

And everybody's damage output has been nerfed considerably, but kill %s are earlier now so it kinda balances out. Thank god for SD or we'd be ****ed, chipping away but getting nowhere.

 

[Camalange]

Bear in mind pretty much everyone who was below high tier had very little in the way of tournament results, their tier placings were based on theory which in no way panned out and...pixie dust?
Edit: apart from Steak.

Yeah, that's the issue. I think theorycrafting tier lists is bull****. We had Pit so high just because he COULD be a good character, whereas we're here kicking ass and taking names, yet being told our character is trash... Which basically meant they were either...

A) Denying Sonic was a semi-viable character, or...
B) Admitting every other player is trash except for Sonic mains and no one knows the matchup.

But in reality, it was really...

C) All of the above.

And everybody's damage output has been nerfed considerably, but kill %s are earlier now so it kinda balances out. Thank god for SD or we'd be ****ed, chipping away but getting nowhere.

True. I've killed/have been killed in this game by random **** by like 80%. Kinda crazy.

 

[Jasku]

I think some things should get nerfed, like, for example, his damage. He just makes too much damage in every attack. I can make with no problem, almost 30% or more in only one combo (that side B hehe). I just have to do that combo a couple times and then finish with a good side smash (which is actually really fast).

But there are some things that should get buffed, like for example, all his TOO LAGGY attacks, because he has some attacks that can be really punishable (all aerials ¬¬).

 

[NotLiquid]

BAir having that additional recovery is practically the tradeoff for the killing power. On the flipside, NAir and UAir are already some of Sonic's best moves right now. I want Sonic to be great just like everyone else on these boards but I don't want opponents to throw down their controllers, go "that's all folks" and walk out of the nationals at the speed of Genesis Robotnik.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I consider Sonic in the second grouping of characters in Smash 4. You have your wtf good characters like Diddy, Sheik, Lucario, Rosalina. Then you have the next grouping that is a decent bit of the cast (around maybe 10 characters) that have some really good options, but have noticeable flaws as well. Then you have the vast majority of the cast that are most definitely viable, but don't have anything that really sets them above and beyond most of the cast. They're just good, solid characters. Then you have like.. Samus. There you go, that's my tier list. I don't think anything is wrong with Sonic at the moment. He's an above average character, but so is 1/3 of the roster, with most of the rest being just a step behind. People need to chill with nerf talk. They already slowed his fsmash ending lag. Go nerf Diddy's dumb uair.

 

[Zaycko]

IMO hes really annoying, almost every sonic i face just does side b combo, and thats it, sure it can be blocked easily but it get boring and annoying, its not fun at all to fight one

 

[RanserSSF4]

IMO hes really annoying, almost every sonic i face just does side b combo, and thats it, sure it can be blocked easily but it get boring and annoying, its not fun at all to fight one

you might as well try and get used to him. I do agree he can annoying to face against, but just adapt to it and you shouldn't have a huge problem.

 

[Zaycko]

you might as well try and get used to him. I do agree he can annoying to face against, but just adapt to it and you shouldn't have a huge problem.

oh and if you block his side b combo he starts rolling going for the grab

 

[TIL]

Sonic constantly walks a dangerously thin line of being amazingly good and being amazingly mediocre. One miscalculated nerf can send him straight back down to where he was in Brawl. Even though I still played him regularly there, I'd hate to see what little progress that was made in Smash 4 be undone.

This is exactly the case. This happens especially with do-or-die characters, like assassins in RPGs and MOBAs. I think it's similar to "Glass-Cannons," as mastered play can result in shutdowns, while misplay is more devastating than usual (Shaco from LoL comes to mind for both cases). Sheik, for example, may be high-tier because she has more of the former and less of the latter. Sonic is also great aggressively, but because of a more distinctive playstyle, one change hits him harder.

Balance is more difficult when trying to appeal to both professional and casual players. High-risk high-reward characters push opponents to learn the ins and outs, the little tricks and gimmicks and timing, which is necessary to shut these characters out. The first player then needs to counter-adapt, reinventing approaches, and refining play at a more complex level than with cookie-cutter characters. Professionally, the ceiling is rapidly being raised, while casual players are left on the floor. A good way to determine if someone is OP is if one player is more heavily rewarded when both have equal knowledge and skill. Sonic is hard to label until we see more of him at high level play.


TL;DR - Tricky characters will always be a pain if you don't put in extra effort, and I don't think Sonic has enough up his sleeve for people to ask for nerfs.

 

[xShadoFiendx]

IMO hes really annoying, almost every sonic i face just does side b combo, and thats it, sure it can be blocked easily but it get boring and annoying, its not fun at all to fight one

IMO, Sonic has always been that annoying match up to people, even in brawl. Not only because the majority of his moves have a certain similarity, but when a Sonic gets momentum vs an opponent, if they don't understand their own reversal options they find their percentage going up absurdly fast.

In this game, Sonic has the options to kill alot easier than he did in brawl (though I still miss his Spindash > bair from brawl). Even though he has more kill moves, and people argue that his damage was kinda nerfed on some of his moves this game, the fact remains that he is a momentum character that people need to be patient against. And that's why people hate him... People do not like being patient. Most smashers have the mentality of always wanting to push buttons, and that's the sort of opponents Sonics love. But when people start understanding what sort of game they have OoS, he becomes alot more bearable of a MU.

I give it a few months of the metagame advancing for Smash 4, and alot of Sonic hate will go from Sonic to Diddy. Or heck, maybe even Luigi (I am a victim of down throw, uair, up B. It combos.)

 

[ROOOOY!]

the fact remains that he is a momentum character that people need to be patient against. And that's why people hate him... People do not like being patient. Most smashers have the mentality of always wanting to push buttons, and that's the sort of opponents Sonics love. But when people start understanding what sort of game they have OoS, he becomes alot more bearable of a MU.

I give it a few months of the metagame advancing for Smash 4, and alot of Sonic hate will go from Sonic to Diddy.

This is so true. Most people just want to play melee in HD though. Waiting for the inevitable project m4

 

[Camalange]

People will forever ***** about the Sonic match-up. Always.

 

[xShadoFiendx]

Truer words never spoken, Sexy Cammy. Haters gonna hate, bwahaah!

 

[Zaycko]

I literally just finished fighting a Sonic who only did side b combo, god he was so ****ing annoying, i lost obviously, and i saved the replay just so you could see why everyone hates sonic, i dont know how to get replays into my computer tho.

 

[IWinToLose]

Just because you lose to a char and don't know how to deal with him doesn't mean he needs to be nerfed.

Sonic is in a good spot right now. The only character that could use a nerf is Diddy Kong and his Dthrow combo -> uair madness.

 

[Camalange]

I literally just finished fighting a Sonic who only did side b combo, god he was so ****ing annoying, i lost obviously, and i saved the replay just so you could see why I'm so bad at this game and john for days

aight

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Love when they pick Sonic and try to HA and Spring->Dair after losing a match. It's also quite enjoyable watching them suicide with SD/SC because of BSBS.

 

[PartyHat]

I'm too slow

 

[elmike]

i like playing as sonic a lot. But i also hate playing versus sonic.

The only nerf he needs is the amount of noise his spin moves makes!
(Seriously, i honestly think that may be one of the reasons people hate playing against sonic)

 

[OmegaSorin]

I want Sonic to be great just like everyone else on these boards but I don't want opponents to throw down their controllers, go "that's all folks" and walk out of the nationals at the speed of Genesis Robotnik.

This is the greatest thing to ever be said, ever.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

lololol

 

[Camalange]

lololol

dear lord

the comments too

you shouldn't have shared this because i felt compelled to comment on it

tl;dr

"The Reason I Hate Sonic Players… Is because I'm bad."

 

[Kinzer]

lololol

If, later in life, I get a cancer diagnosis, I am going to sue you for everything you own.

 

[Camalange]

I actually handled the comment section surprisingly well.

good guy cam

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I consider Sonic in the second grouping of characters in Smash 4. You have your wtf good characters like Diddy, Sheik, Lucario, Rosalina. Then you have the next grouping that is a decent bit of the cast (around maybe 10 characters) that have some really good options, but have noticeable flaws as well. Then you have the vast majority of the cast that are most definitely viable, but don't have anything that really sets them above and beyond most of the cast. They're just good, solid characters. Then you have like.. Samus. There you go, that's my tier list. I don't think anything is wrong with Sonic at the moment. He's an above average character, but so is 1/3 of the roster, with most of the rest being just a step behind. People need to chill with nerf talk. They already slowed his fsmash ending lag. Go nerf Diddy's dumb uair.

I agree with this fine gentleman.

 

[Zaycko]

dear lord

the comments too

you shouldn't have shared this because i felt compelled to comment on it

tl;dr

"The Reason I Hate Sonic Players… Is because I'm bad."

Id like to see sonic do more than that, show me some combos pls