Question about true combos and air dodges.

[AaronSMASH]

I've heard that training mode sometimes counts a combo as true even though it can be air dodged out of.

But I also heard that this is only the case after a certain % or with certain characters. Can someone give me a detailed explaination.

It also seems like even level 9 computers won't air dodge out of some combos I use when my friends can dodge out of them much MUCH earlier. Maybe it's my imagination. The lvl 9s seem to constantly use frame perfect air dodges so I found it strange that they would just let themselves get hit if it was avoidable.

Specifically these were ZSS and Samus d-Throw -> uair/fair -> up-b

 

[Deleted member 269706]

To my knowledge, a true combo means it cannot be air-dodged out of because you are hitting the opponent while they are still in hitstun. However, it is possible to DI out of it at certain percentages. It is important to note that different combos work on different characters. Bowser for example tends to be comboed easier because he is so much heavier and has a larger hurtbox than a lot of other characters. This combination means that he can be comboed at higher percentages whereas lighter characters, such as Jigglypuff can't be comboed at the same percentages because JP receives so much more knockback.

So the reason that the CPU doesn't seem to be air dodging your attacks while your friends are is either because (1) you buffer your attacks better when playing against CPUs, and delay just barely when playing against friends, (2) the characters that the CPUs were just easier to combo whereas your friend was playing a character who was less susceptible to combos, or (3) your perception is off (and I don't mean this in a malicious way). There's always the possibility that the CPUs aren't actually frame perfect, or have a built in "flaw" allowing them to be hit once in a while, which is completely reasonable as well. But I think it's safe to assume one of the above 3 options.

 

[AaronSMASH]

To my knowledge, a true combo means it cannot be air-dodged out of because you are hitting the opponent while they are still in hitstun. However, it is possible to DI out of it at certain percentages. It is important to note that different combos work on different characters. Bowser for example tends to be comboed easier because he is so much heavier and has a larger hurtbox than a lot of other characters. This combination means that he can be comboed at higher percentages whereas lighter characters, such as Jigglypuff can't be comboed at the same percentages because JP receives so much more knockback.

So the reason that the CPU doesn't seem to be air dodging your attacks while your friends are is either because (1) you buffer your attacks better when playing against CPUs, and delay just barely when playing against friends, (2) the characters that the CPUs were just easier to combo whereas your friend was playing a character who was less susceptible to combos, or (3) your perception is off (and I don't mean this in a malicious way). There's always the possibility that the CPUs aren't actually frame perfect, or have a built in "flaw" allowing them to be hit once in a while, which is completely reasonable as well. But I think it's safe to assume one of the above 3 options.

I understand that true combos are defined as you stated. What I mean is, in training mode, I have heard that it will register a true combo when in an actual match it can be dodged out of. For the sake of the question just assume the characters and DI are identical.

It wasn't just a few times is what I mean. And the difference seemed pretty huge (although it could very well be my perception). But what I experienced was the CPU getting hit consistently with the same combo. Then using the same combo, I couldn't even input the move before my friend was air dodging. The discrepancy was glaring. So much so that regardless of DI, character, or speed of inputs it seemed impossible to land where as I was just landing the same combo consistently through a wide variety of %s.

It's certainly possible that it is just a feeling and not reality. I didn't record it so I have no way to measure it to be sure.

 

[Balgorxz]

people are too obsessed about true combos, the best options in this game are the 50/50's where if the airdodge they get punished and if not they take the hit which consist most of this game followups in this game and these are not registered anywhere, sadly those can't be practice with CPUs.
If you want to improve your DI and DI punishes try playing people that know the game mechanics, also training doesn't have Rage and it makes harder to combo that way in a real match.

 

[Lavani]

It's my understanding that the order you can act out of hitstun (from earliest to latest) is airdodge > jump ≥ attack, and that the training counter is based off when the opponent is able to jump, meaning some things that register as combos can be airdodged out of.

 

[David Viran]

It's my understanding that the order you can act out of hitstun (from earliest to latest) is airdodge > jump ≥ attack, and that the training counter is based off when the opponent is able to jump, meaning some things that register as combos can be airdodged out of.

I'm pretty sure it goes airdodge > attack > jump.

 

[Lavani]

I'm pretty sure it goes airdodge > attack > jump.

It very well might, I don't have the game in front of me to doublecheck. All I remember for sure is that airdodge is the earliest possible action and that the training combo meter doesn't track that.

 

[KatoRyusaki]

Don't forget that there's no rage effect in training mode. In an actually match, the knock back of your attacks vary depending on your rage.

Most of what is considered to be true combos only works in the absence of DI. In addition, CPU's don't mix up their DI pattern, thus you're able to consistently follow through in the same direction instantly with the same combo every time.

On the other hand, human players would constantly mix up their DI patterns. Reason why many true combos would fall short of connecting on other human players is because you have to react to their DI and then follow up. With in your reaction time, if you're off by even just a couple of frames on your follow up, they would be out of hit stun and able to air dodge.

Then at times when you consider your self to be frame perfect on your follow up, if they simply DI in the direction that is furthest away from your follow up (especially at high %), you just won't reach them in time before they're out of hit stun.

So in the end, there are very few that actually have true combo kill setups. Because what it means is a guaranteed kill that is inescapable. That would clearly be over powered which is hence why certain characters got nerfed.. i.e. Diddy's Hoo Hah combo.

 

[LightLV]

Things training mode excludes:

-Any form of DI
-Stale Move Reduction
-Rage Effect
-Ability to force CPU to mash an attack on recovery
-Ability to force CPU to jump away on recovery
-Ability to force CPU to tech

So, basically, it's nigh-useless for the sake of combos. Unless you have a friend nearby who is going to behave even remotely like a real opponent, this game's training mode is garbage.