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Question about the Link Matchup and how to deal with campy playstyles/keeping cool under pressure.

MH | Joeschmo

20XX Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
Messages
66
Location
Rowlett, Texas
Lately I've been playing with my friend who is a decent Link player, who as from the title you can tell is very campy, which playing against that really infuriates me, and I really don't know how to deal with this. It makes it so much harder trying to battle myself and win a match against someone who's play-style counters/forces me to play a certain way that I hate to do. Though when I do manage to stay calm I typically win, or at the least don't get 2 stocked/rage quit. Advice would be much appreciated!
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,972
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Houston, Texas
Well, you have to wait. Patience is what you need. Try and bait, and if that doesn't work, wait for him to throw something out so you can go in. Try not to drop edgeguards. Just try to out camp if it makes sense. If you can just wait for him to make a move, work around that.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
I disagree completely with the above. Waiting is what Link wants you to do, and you aren't going to bait a camper who'd prefer to camp. The thing about Link is that he has very limited out of shield options, and they aren't very effective against Marth. In this matchup, you need to get in Link's face and stay there. Since Marth's moves outrange Link's, and all of Link's projectile options are easily punishable at that range, Link is in for an uphill battle.
 

MarthZ

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
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233
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Valparaiso, Indiana
NNID
NESman1995
if hes just chucking bombs at you try to catch them or wave dash into a grab (depending on how far away you are from him) if hes spamming arrows you could always spot dodge and don't be afraid to ever use counter when they're camping mid airs
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
To expand on my past post, Link's OoS options are really bad, and he is often forced to roll more often OoS, because it's not particularly safe for him to do anything else once you've established a good position on him. More than likely, Link will choose to roll backwards, cause it gives him more breathing room, but honestly this is such a win win for you because he also loses a large chunk of stage. If he tries to roll through you, I'd suspect that he'd be vulnerable in most cases, so always be on the lookout for him to roll through you, and just don't worry if he chooses to roll away from you.

If you grab Link, and he's at a percent where you can't get any sort of guaranteed combo on him, always throw him to the closest ledge. Getting him to a ledge forces him to engage you, and that goes way in Marth's favor. Since Link is quite slow, you should be able to maintain stage control like this for most of your match. Much like what I've said above, throwing Link forward, or backward (via downthrow, not bthrow) will lead to a tech chase. The same applies. In most cases, most Link players will want to roll away from you if given the option, although they will also occasionally make a gambit to roll through you. Your best bet, IMO, is that you always cover the roll through/tech to stand option by walking towards Link and then responding to his choices afterwards. If he techs to stand, you should be in position to mess him up already. If he tries to roll through you, you have plenty of time to dash the opposite way and grab him. If he rolls away, congrats, he just gave up almost half of FD from your throw plus his back roll.

You might say to yourself, "Well if I get a sweet read that he rolls back I could do -insert awesome thing here-." Don't let those thoughts dictate the match, because them rolling back is already a plus, and by going on a guess (even an educated guess) you open yourself up to punishment if you guessed wrong. Also, any and all stage control you have gained is instantly reversed if he rolls through you and you run after him in the assumption that he rolled away. Suddenly, you are now the one pinned close to the stage and Link is now in a good position to force you to act, plus has tons of stage behind him to projectile spam. So take your small win on the roll back, and just walk forward to close as much of the gap as you can and continue pressing Link closer and closer to the edge. Trust me, by doing this your opponent will literally feel like they can't do much the whole match, even if it's actually really close!

In neutral, watch out for Link's grab. I find that my optimal dash dance length is such that I sometimes get caught in the hookshot, but at the same time it's a huge risk for Link if he misses. In the event that Link whiffs a hookshot grab, do not force anything. Don't go for an fsmash that you don't have time for just because you really want it. Take what you can get naturally, which in almost every case the worst scenario would be a grab, and honestly that is just fine.
 
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MH | Joeschmo

20XX Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
Messages
66
Location
Rowlett, Texas
To expand on my past post, Link's OoS options are really bad, and he is often forced to roll more often OoS, because it's not particularly safe for him to do anything else once you've established a good position on him. More than likely, Link will choose to roll backwards, cause it gives him more breathing room, but honestly this is such a win win for you because he also loses a large chunk of stage. If he tries to roll through you, I'd suspect that he'd be vulnerable in most cases, so always be on the lookout for him to roll through you, and just don't worry if he chooses to roll away from you.

If you grab Link, and he's at a percent where you can't get any sort of guaranteed combo on him, always throw him to the closest ledge. Getting him to a ledge forces him to engage you, and that goes way in Marth's favor. Since Link is quite slow, you should be able to maintain stage control like this for most of your match. Much like what I've said above, throwing Link forward, or backward (via downthrow, not bthrow) will lead to a tech chase. The same applies. In most cases, most Link players will want to roll away from you if given the option, although they will also occasionally make a gambit to roll through you. Your best bet, IMO, is that you always cover the roll through/tech to stand option by walking towards Link and then responding to his choices afterwards. If he techs to stand, you should be in position to mess him up already. If he tries to roll through you, you have plenty of time to dash the opposite way and grab him. If he rolls away, congrats, he just gave up almost half of FD from your throw plus his back roll.

You might say to yourself, "Well if I get a sweet read that he rolls back I could do -insert awesome thing here-." Don't let those thoughts dictate the match, because them rolling back is already a plus, and by going on a guess (even an educated guess) you open yourself up to punishment if you guessed wrong. Also, any and all stage control you have gained is instantly reversed if he rolls through you and you run after him in the assumption that he rolled away. Suddenly, you are now the one pinned close to the stage and Link is now in a good position to force you to act, plus has tons of stage behind him to projectile spam. So take your small win on the roll back, and just walk forward to close as much of the gap as you can and continue pressing Link closer and closer to the edge. Trust me, by doing this your opponent will literally feel like they can't do much the whole match, even if it's actually really close!

In neutral, watch out for Link's grab. I find that my optimal dash dance length is such that I sometimes get caught in the hookshot, but at the same time it's a huge risk for Link if he misses. In the event that Link whiffs a hookshot grab, do not force anything. Don't go for an fsmash that you don't have time for just because you really want it. Take what you can get naturally, which in almost every case the worst scenario would be a grab, and honestly that is just fine.
Thanks a bunch. I really didn't understand the match up, or how to really deal with his grab in particular, the only way I really seemed to beat his shield grab is by conditioning him with like fairs so he could grab me once or so, however that lead to this really annoying seemingly guarenteed 0-60% combo. Though I did eventually beat that out by doing something different which made my conditioning pay off, however it made the matches way too close for comfort for me.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Shield grabbing shouldn't be a big problem with Link because it's much slower than a normal grab, and can't grab as high up as other grabs. If he has a tendency to just shield grab, then you should work on your spacing so that you don't get in too close. I don't have frame data on this, but I'm pretty sure if your second fair would tip Link an unshielded Link, you probably have time to dash away immediately on land before the hookshot can grab you. Hell, you might even be able to jump and do more fairs and escape the hookshot. I personally don't know, but I don't recall shield grabs being a problem, and is likely due to sloppiness on your part.

Focus on spacing with fairs in your training, if you have 20XX it's really easy to practice by setting your opponent to simply shield (with infinite shield) and get used to the tipper range, as well as jumping forward and double fairing, jumping slightly backwards and double fairing, and etc. If you don't have 20XX you can set a lvl comp to have a handicap of 9 while you have a handicap of 1 and you can try it there. It simulates the lag from hitting a shield, and you can practice spacing, positioning, and whatnot on a moving target.

While not the same, this is the best example I have of myself using the same kind of philosophy against a Ganon player:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPioqmw8Wns

Notice that, if I can't get a combo, I throw him to the nearest ledge. Against ganon you have a good shot at landing the turnaround dtilt, but I don't know if it works against Link. Definitely worth testing if you have them right up on the ledge though. I'm also way more aggressive than I normally am against Ganon because: A) Ganon also has relatively poor OoS options, and B) Ganon's moves are very laggy so I can intercept his aerials very easily. Against Link you have to look out for nair (and kinda bair too) but this applies partially. Also, don't use shield breaker like I do, I was sorta goofing off there and using it because I wasn't confident in my edgeguarding in general.

Also there are plenty of times where I stupidly put myself out of position and it comes back to haunt me. Be sure to focus on these elements in your own play so you can fix them.
 
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